77 replies to this topic

[Crockdaddy]

Kavoh, on 26 December 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

Oh man! One noticeable buff to a specific IS chassis means clan imbalances are irrelevant. Sorry our mechs aren't master of all anymore. If you see my posting history you will know that I have defended clan mechs balance wise a lot, however their comes a point when you can't ignore the elephant in the room. Saying one specific quirk to one chassis that brings up a subpar chassis/weapon system up to par means that clans are no longer king anymore is asinine. I have no issues whatsoever killing ERPPC Tbolts, god forbid they actually have a mech that can reach out to clan range effectively. Even the mplas tbolt is slower than most clan mechs while having really easy to hit hitboxes.

Id say that specific quirk and IS ACs (although many claim they actually like the clan multi-shot ACs for blinding reasons) are the only thing that really screams unique for IS. And while some are saying "IS energy weapons have less burn time and are cooler!". Well a lot of good that does you when clan weapons are almost double the range and most of our mechs can boat higher than average numbers of weapons.

Don't misunderstand me though, I want nothing more than our Summoner, Mist Lynx, Nova, etc to be brought up to par as well, but the king three (and to a slighter extent, one of my favorites, the hellbringer) are what a majority run as min max anyway, which is where the problem comes. Even if the nova/summoner/lynx are buffed, they will not be up to the king three's standard otherwise we would be right back to square one, which means people who min max will still take those specific mechs. Iconic or not, people who play to win use those for a reason, and this "its the most efficient chassis, it SHOULD be the best!" is ridiculous as well because we have long since abandoned canon-mechs thanks to quirks and weapon balancing. If we were to go the route of canon efficiency, clan mechs should be walking through companies of IS mechs.

Whoa ... a sane post. I agree with most of it. IS quirks only work if you play up to the quirks strength or the clan unit ignores the obvious strong points the Stormcrow/Hellbringer/Madcat can bring to the table. When we run Tbolts we have specific scenarios in mind we are attempting to bring to an engagement to grant us an advantage. Otherwise my Tbolt is almost always outclassed by an equally savvy clan pilot.

[Kirkland Langue]

Another Balance thread.

Everyone making such a thread should FIRST AND FOREMOST, state what measuring stick they are using to determine whether something is OP/UP/Balanced or not.

I'm sure PGI has plenty of data to answer the question - but the data is only useful if people know what question to ask. Are Clans OP because they win the vast majority of engagements? Are Clans OP because they win Planets? Either of these are fine measuring sticks by which to claim that Clans are OP, and if the actual CW data were available to us, we'd be able to see if the data backed up the allegation.

Obviously, no matter what measuring stick you use, there are always other considerations such as pilot skill or pilot numbers for the different factions/houses/clans/units. But at the end of the day, having a measuring stick is better than not having one. Don't just say "Clans are OP" - start by saying "Clans are OP BECAUSE...."

[C E Dwyer]

Well are clan mechs OP..

No they're not in a stand up fight in standard arena battles


In CW they have a very big advantage, the zerg rush is a lot faster and those XL engines means you have to knock two sides off

So when the zerg rush is the only tactic to win clan mechs have one hell of an advantage


This isn't the clan player fault in anyway shape or form
This lies at PGI's feet for making the maps dull and chaneling the attacking force, to make zerg rush the only way to win

[Tsig]

Aresye, on 25 December 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

I fully support this idea. Please ignore us.

We promise we will not take any planets if you do.

[Mystere]

Cathy, on 27 December 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

This isn't the clan player fault in anyway shape or form
This lies at PGI's feet for making the maps dull and chaneling the attacking force, to make zerg rush the only way to win

People, please refrain from continually spouting this obvious lie.

[Mcgral18]

Mystere, on 27 December 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

People, please refrain from continually spouting this obvious lie.

Easiest and fasted way to win. You could fight all 48 mechs and last 25+ minutes, or just charge and be done within 10.


Getting 3 tokens is worth more than getting one.

[SuomiWarder]

I generally agree that the map/win scenario design is the biggest factor for the Clan is OP feeling. An half-way organized Clan team will have multiple mechs on the slopes punishing anyone trying to kill a door generator plus probably a bit if LRMs thrown over the wall for fun.

Then they can stand back under cover and use their range advantage to splat anyone entering.

Yes, enough light rushing can get the IS a win - but I that really the kind of stompy robot action we want? Running away from the enemy to shoot a big box?

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 27 December 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

Easiest and fasted way to win.

Yes, unless .... (see below)

Mcgral18, on 27 December 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

You could fight all 48 mechs and last 25+ minutes, or just charge and be done within 10.

Not when I am defending and at the same time not grouped with mutts, cubs, and kittens. 10 minutes get you to open the gates ... maybe.

Mcgral18, on 27 December 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

Getting 3 tokens is worth more than getting one.

I prefer slaughtering freeborn scum.

[Mcgral18]

Mystere, on 27 December 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

I prefer slaughtering freeborn scum.

Ah, but that's what defending is for.


In a 4-6+ man, with half decent pugs you can be done within 10 minutes. 8 man shouldn't be any issue, even if the PUGs don't listen.


I've had half decent luck with people listening, so that helps quite a bit. If they didn't....well, we see those results. Where you either jump the gate from boredom, or just ignore them until they blow one gate open. 15+ minutes of...just waiting gets old.

Edited by Mcgral18, 27 December 2014 - 03:31 PM.

[IONCHRONO]

Clans are more powerful than IS their supposed to be but 12 vs 12 cmon ive ran both sides if your not winning in clan your doing something very wrong, maybe different tonnage limits for IS to clan would be a fairer game ? yeah sure we have all seen IS win games but 90%+ of games Clan win. Yes clan could take too many planets and not be able to defend them all so IS will either lose vs clan mechs or win only when theres no one home.... sounds like great fun to me I know it's only beta so i can only hope they fix this issue in the near future.

[SickerthanSars]

IONCHRONO, on 27 December 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

Clans are more powerful than IS their supposed to be but 12 vs 12 cmon ive ran both sides if your not winning in clan your doing something very wrong, maybe different tonnage limits for IS to clan would be a fairer game ? yeah sure we have all seen IS win games but 90%+ of games Clan win. Yes clan could take too many planets and not be able to defend them all so IS will either lose vs clan mechs or win only when theres no one home.... sounds like great fun to me I know it's only beta so i can only hope they fix this issue in the near future.

yet another IS puggie running the "this is my opinion so it is fact" line...please stop already. Have no problem winning against clans attack or defense in 8 man grps vs 8 man grps.

[_Comrade_]

What PGI should do for CW is make a incentive for IS to attack clan space. For example, say if a planet has a factory that produces Timber Wolf's, capturing that planet will allow that IS faction to use Timber Wolf's

doing this would not only stay true to lore, but also stop the whining about OP clans, and give an incentive for IS to attack clan space

[Nightshade24]

I've played under Falcon and Ghost bear.

I have only won 2 attacks as clans. While my wins for defense is 50/50-ish

Meanwhile when I played IS I won nearly every game and got nearly double the damage and kills then I do in clans.

The thing is clans got no quirks. That's the problem.

Ice ferret? Kitfox? Mist Lynx? Summoner? Mad Dog? Warhawk? Direwolf? Gargoyle? practically useless in CW
Nova? Stormcrow? Timberwolf? Hellbringer? they are not useless. But they are quite behind the IS mechs.

We have no equivalent of a firestarter which does 32 damage per second. (upon first hit on a generator, it has the ability to take all 3 generators and damage the main generator all by itself. Not even the direwolfs can do that if we cut the travel time back)
The firestarter is also a light mech so you can carry 3 off them and a heavy or assault off your choice.
Also the fact it's faster then any clan mech out there and one of the fastest inner sphere...
and the fact it can jump over a wall from ground level.

That is just me talking about 1 off the many IS mechs that you guys can use...

Every IS mech is valid in CW. All off them. The ones that are not valid is only due to you having not exactly a good skill in it.
(ie I hear people saying the jester is the worst mech ever. Meanwhile others say it is the best hero out there and if you like the K2 (which is the most popular catapult variant) then you'll like the jester).


We got the quirks of the IS giving them the advantage over clans. (ironically this also leads to IS tech being better then clan. For eg the IS ER PPC is 50% colder, has a few hundred extra meters, and a insane cool down time on a thunderbolt while the warhawk has literally no quirks for this. What the warhawk can do with 4 er ppc's, the thunderbolt can do with 1)

We also got the problem off the constant heat nerfs...

C ER medium laser is nearly the same heat as the inner sphere large laser.
The C ER large laser is nearly the same heat as a PPC.

The Summoner energy build was popular in lore for being nearly impossible to over heat meanwhile the non energy strict builds are having heat problems let alone the one that is a energy build.

On my direwolf widowmaker LRM config. (2 LRM 20, 1 UAC 20, 2 large pulse, 3 er med) the 3 er meds produce more heat per second then all the other weapons together virtually. That's the sad thing. If I removed 1 heatsink and removed all er medium lasers for a large pulse laser I got more slots then before and better cooling efficiency.

I'm sorry, But I say you better keep spamming your attacks on the clans now. Because later on we will see nothing but buffs to the clans. this include the quirkening for the clans and reduction in energy weapon heat. We can also expect soon propper hero mechs for clans. (hopefully I do not need to do a replica widowmaker and can have a legitimate one for myself with the top mounted UAC 20)


Hopefully PGI will reconsider the 10 vs 12 for CW and give clans 5 mechs to spawn in. This gives nearly the same tonnage max for both teams but the only factor is less clans to fight at the same given time.

Grimwill, on 28 December 2014 - 05:31 AM, said:

What PGI should do for CW is make a incentive for IS to attack clan space. For example, say if a planet has a factory that produces Timber Wolf's, capturing that planet will allow that IS faction to use Timber Wolf's

doing this would not only stay true to lore, but also stop the whining about OP clans, and give an incentive for IS to attack clan space

I will agree to this as long as we can use our second line mechs.

I really want to use my Locust IIC or Ghost bear King Crab in CW.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

IONCHRONO, on 27 December 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

Clans are more powerful than IS their supposed to be but 12 vs 12 cmon ive ran both sides if your not winning in clan your doing something very wrong, maybe different tonnage limits for IS to clan would be a fairer game ? yeah sure we have all seen IS win games but 90%+ of games Clan win. Yes clan could take too many planets and not be able to defend them all so IS will either lose vs clan mechs or win only when theres no one home.... sounds like great fun to me I know it's only beta so i can only hope they fix this issue in the near future.

I believe there is a thread around here where someone with the actual stats said clans are winning 63% of games vs IS.

When you consider 2 of those clans population wise are small and they mostly made up of well established units, that's not so impressive that against IS groups and pugs they only win 63%

If only that could be broken down into pug vs pug, team vs team, pug vs team stats.
I suspect the majority of that 64% is made up of the pug vs team stat and pug vs pug and team vs team is alot closer.

[Zepster]

It's not that the clan mechs are OP. There's a number of problems with CW as it currently sits:
- Clans should be in STARS ie. 10 not 12. Mech configurations for clan are based on this so it APPEARS they are OP. It's the number of TBR not the mech itself
- Player population. At end of ceasefire clans run up unopposed tickets which constantly puts IS counterattacking. Need some method to balance the player base and reduce unopposed wins

The windows for attack need to be adjusted BIGTIME. As it sits now it basically comes down to about 3-4 hours per day where anything really matters at all.

[Shredmetal]

[SickerthanSars]

Zepster, on 28 December 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

It's not that the clan mechs are OP. There's a number of problems with CW as it currently sits:
- Clans should be in STARS ie. 10 not 12. Mech configurations for clan are based on this so it APPEARS they are OP. It's the number of TBR not the mech itself
- Player population. At end of ceasefire clans run up unopposed tickets which constantly puts IS counterattacking. Need some method to balance the player base and reduce unopposed wins

The windows for attack need to be adjusted BIGTIME. As it sits now it basically comes down to about 3-4 hours per day where anything really matters at all.

the game is balanced for 12v12 and PGI has diverged from lore a number of times even before this so please for the love of god stop making arguments that clans should drop in 10s or any other lore based argument. Further if that was the case, clan mechs wouldn't be nerfed to the state they are now and you IS puggies would be crying about how Clans really are OP (as they were when they first showed up in game) and then you'd be losing vs 10mans and it would be even more embarrassing.

DV McKenna, on 28 December 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

I believe there is a thread around here where someone with the actual stats said clans are winning 63% of games vs IS.

When you consider 2 of those clans population wise are small and they mostly made up of well established units, that's not so impressive that against IS groups and pugs they only win 63%

If only that could be broken down into pug vs pug, team vs team, pug vs team stats.
I suspect the majority of that 64% is made up of the pug vs team stat and pug vs pug and team vs team is alot closer.

You actually believe numbers posted by a user on the MWO fourms...oh boy I have some beach side property in Arizona Id like to sell you

[Oderint dum Metuant]

SickerthanSars, on 28 December 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

You actually believe numbers posted by a user on the MWO fourms...oh boy I have some beach side property in Arizona Id like to sell you

I think you should re-read what i wrote.