57 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

So far PGI's solution to making light mechs more viable choices has been to increase their firepower. This leads to fun builds like the 8 SPL FS9-A, with Deathstar-level firepower on a 35 ton chassis. I know a lot of people are afraid to make the light mechs more powerful, but they're still the most unpopular class in the game.

As I'm writing this post, there's 30% assault mechs, 42% heavy mechs, 22% medium mechs and 6% light mechs in the queue.

How do you like the idea of implementing glancing hits for light mechs moving above, say, 152 kph? It basically means that ballistic weapons would do less damage against the mechs that are able to move faster than 155 kph. But it would only do less damage when they're moving really fast. So it has no effect on the Jenner or Firestarter, but it would help the survivability of Locusts, Commandos and Spiders when they're moving at top speed.

Yeah, Spiders are already hard to hit. But they're hardly a huge threat, they're not exactly Tier 1 mechs. They're just annoying. Especially for other light mechs, like the Locust, who don't really have any advantage over the Spiders. Spiders go just as fast, just as hard to hit, more armour and more firepower. But that's a different story.

Of course, those mechs would still be vulnerable to lasers, PPCs, LRMs and SSRMs. I have other solutions for that (convergence, making target locks harder to get, while increasing missile speed) but we already have enough threads discussing convergence and missiles.

TL;DR: Let mechs take less damage from ballistics when moving at 155+ kph. Firestarter, Raven and Jenner would be unaffected.

[Lily from animove]

so you mean making the hitregissus that already apply on the firestarter an inbuild function?

firestarters and ravens have a bad hitreg, however a jenner dies quite fine. So does not seem to balance stuff at all.

[Alistair Winter]

Lily from animove, on 18 January 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

so you mean making the hitregissus that already apply on the firestarter an inbuild function?
firestarters and ravens have a bad hitreg, however a jenner dies quite fine. So does not seem to balance stuff at all.

Forget the Firestarter, Raven and Jenner. The issue is that the Locust and Commando are terrible mechs. As are the SDR-5K and SDR-5V. (The ECM Spider can't move faster than 155 kph, so forget that one too)

All the light mechs in the game that can move faster than 155 kph are pretty terrible. Their speed and small size does not make up for their fragility and lack of firepower. Glancing hits (e.g. protecting from ballistics) would only help these light mechs, which are all clearly underpowered. So it would balance stuff.

EDIT: Just to be absolutely clear. Glancing hits would only apply to mechs moving faster than 155 kph. So Firestarters, Jenners and Ravens would not be affected. At all. And it's not a matter of hit reg anyway, it's about stopping Locusts and Commandos from being legged 2 minutes into every game by anyone with a decent aim.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 18 January 2015 - 04:21 PM.

[CocoaJin]

Let's look at speed from another perspective as a check and balance...fast mechs slipping while maneuvering at high speeds.

So breaking left or right too hard creates a chance to slip with speeds above 125km/h, with a significantly lesser chance between 100-124km/h. Running on rough, unmanicured terrain creates a chance to trip at any time with speeds in excess of 100km/h.

Now that's balanced...and it would affect all mechs, lights would just have higher exposure.

[Ultimax]

Alistair Winter, on 18 January 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

So far PGI's solution to making light mechs more viable choices has been to increase their firepower. This leads to fun builds like the 8 SPL FS9-A, with Deathstar-level firepower on a 35 ton chassis.

I just want to point out that 32 points of damage, at 148m range really isn't "death star level" firepower.

[CocoaJin]

Ultimatum X, on 18 January 2015 - 05:06 PM, said:

I just want to point out that 32 points of damage, at 148m range really isn't "death star level" firepower.

Flu-bug Star? Too Much Tequila Star? Fell Down and Really Hurt My Knee Star? Nyquil Star? Meat-Sweats Star?

[Alistair Winter]

CocoaJin, on 18 January 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

Let's look at speed from another perspective as a check and balance...fast mechs slipping while maneuvering at high speeds
So breaking left or right too hard creates a chance to slip with speeds above 125km/h, with a significantly lesser chance between 100-124km/h. Running on rough, unmanicured terrain creates a chance to trip at any time with speeds in excess of 100km/h.
Now that's balanced...and it would affect all mechs, lights would just have higher exposure.

I'm getting the sense that you're pretending to miss the point on purpose (i.e. trolling), but maybe I've misunderstood you.

What you're suggesting is obviously an effective nerf for fast mechs. At a glance, the point seems to be realism, it it makes no account for the fact that 100 ton mechs would probably have a considerably harder time navigating slopes covered with mud, ice and sand.

What's your point?

Ultimatum X, on 18 January 2015 - 05:06 PM, said:

I just want to point out that 32 points of damage, at 148m range really isn't "death star level" firepower.

Thanks.

[GreyNovember]

The idea seems fun, but what's the logic behind it? A projectile hitting a body moving at a certain velocity would still be affected by it's full impact force wouldn't it?

More so if it was head on.

[The Most Regular Comstar]

Forget the mechanic - put it in quirks, or as a module, available only for specific mechs ("sloped armor" or "reactive armor").
It doesn't make that much sense to be based on speed, but I understand why you are trying to limit it to certain mechs.

I would approve of an urbie quirk, "sloped armor" - ballistics do 50% less damage to side torsos.

[Latorque]

The Raven has borked hitboxes now? Because its legs seem to blow out just fine, it was the reason for me selling my beloved 3L - it just seemed to be a free meal for FSs and SCRs.

Those 32 points of damage on FSs can be a handful if they're paired with the inherent ability of the FS to "glance" hits which is in effect right now, read bonkers hit registration - something in which the SDR excels even more still; judged from a gut feeling when piloting both of those.

Besides; i'm never quite sure with the Commando - it's a rare sight by now; but those determined to pilot it seem to be able to pull off astonishing stunts in it. I'm pretty sure that's due to their skill though; not flawed game mechanics.

The one thing that bugs me about this is the image of 6 lights per team zipping around and "glancing" shots left and right - the rarity of the FS in matches is actually kind of surprising, considered that its "abilities" are pretty well known. If those abilities would be officially applied to all <30 ton mech chassis... yikes.

[Alistair Winter]

Eonai, on 18 January 2015 - 05:34 PM, said:

The idea seems fun, but what's the logic behind it? A projectile hitting a body moving at a certain velocity would still be affected by it's full impact force wouldn't it?
More so if it was head on.

So many things in this game aren't based on logic, but very well, I'll give it a go.

The logic is that it should be pretty difficult for any mech to adjust its aim in a nano second to hit a mech moving at 170 kph. Any shell fired has a certain trajectory influenced by wind, altitude and gravity, so it's not simply a matter of pointing the gun at whatever's in front of you. Furthermore, rapidly changing the angle of the barrel to hit that squirrel running around you results in vibrations which reduces accuracy.

Yeah, it's a flawed logic. It's a band-aid fix to a game which, by virtue of trying to implement a tabletop game as a FPS, makes some mechs better than others.

The Most Regular Comstar, on 18 January 2015 - 05:34 PM, said:

Forget the mechanic - put it in quirks, or as a module, available only for specific mechs ("sloped armor" or "reactive armor").
It doesn't make that much sense to be based on speed, but I understand why you are trying to limit it to certain mechs.
I would approve of an urbie quirk, "sloped armor" - ballistics do 50% less damage to side torsos.

I'm not a fan of using expensive modules as a balancing tools. Quirks might work, but PGI seems very reluctant to simple buff armour on the Locust and Commando.

[CocoaJin]

Alistair Winter, on 18 January 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

I'm getting the sense that you're pretending to miss the point on purpose (i.e. trolling), but maybe I've misunderstood you.

What you're suggesting is obviously an effective nerf for fast mechs. At a glance, the point seems to be realism, it it makes no account for the fact that 100 ton mechs would probably have a considerably harder time navigating slopes covered with mud, ice and sand.

What's your point?


Thanks.

Free buffs are bad and usually self-serving...balance comes through checks and balances. A speed shield will do nothing but encourage faster light mechs and more of the hitreg issues already present in game.

My proposal provides a balancing counter-debuff to speed. Thus requiring speed be used skillfully and tactically, instead of just a no-brainier, mash the throttle, high speed dervish without regard to anything except maybe running into a wall/object, partial damage immunity-shield.

Now, if you want glancing shots from projectiles, I suggest you propose a system that tracks impact angles...it'll increase CPU/Server load, but at least it wouldn't be a damage immunity gift.

[Rampancy]

If someone manages to land a shell on a full-speed Locust, they'very earned the damage that shell deals.

[Alistair Winter]

Latorque, on 18 January 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

The Raven has borked hitboxes now? Because its legs seem to blow out just fine, it was the reason for me selling my beloved 3L - it just seemed to be a free meal for FSs and SCRs.

What? I don't think I ever said it did.

Latorque, on 18 January 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

Besides; i'm never quite sure with the Commando - it's a rare sight by now; but those determined to pilot it seem to be able to pull off astonishing stunts in it. I'm pretty sure that's due to their skill though; not flawed game mechanics.

Exactly. Same with good Locust pilots and good Mist Lynx pilots. The pilots are good. Most people can't do 100 dmg in those mechs.

Latorque, on 18 January 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

The one thing that bugs me about this is the image of 6 lights per team zipping around and "glancing" shots left and right - the rarity of the FS in matches is actually kind of surprising, considered that its "abilities" are pretty well known. If those abilities would be officially applied to all <30 ton mech chassis... yikes.

In CW, the Firestarter and Jenner are the bread and butter of IS teams. For this week's challenge, I think 75% of the light mechs I encountered were Firestarters. I must have seen 100 Firestarters for every Commando.

People are so terrified of buffing light mechs, but they're the least popular mechs in the game for a reason. With a few notable exceptions, they're considerably underpowered and difficult to use. The numbers speak for themselves. Few people are playing them, and they don't get as many kills, don't do as much damage as other classes. And this is especially true for the mechs I'm discussing in this thread - Spider 5V / 5K, Commando and Locust.

[El Bandito]

Alistair Winter, on 18 January 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

TL;DR: Let mechs take less damage from ballistics when moving at 155+ kph. Firestarter, Raven and Jenner would be unaffected.

I personally will be pissed if I managed to land an AC20 or Gauss on the Light mech only to let it deal reduced damage. As if hit reg is not eating my bullets already...

IMO, PGI should make IS ACs stream fire with two projectiles per shot. That will help the Lights out. Then globally nerf mechs' top speed so hit reg will be better and this game will feel more like an actual mech game.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 January 2015 - 06:00 PM.

[occusoj]

Quote

The logic is that it should be pretty difficult for any mech to adjust its aim in a nano second to hit a mech moving at 170 kph. Any shell fired has a certain trajectory influenced by wind, altitude and gravity, so it's not simply a matter of pointing the gun at whatever's in front of you. Furthermore, rapidly changing the angle of the barrel to hit that squirrel running around you results in vibrations which reduces accuracy.

And when it hits then it should cause normal damage.

Barrel vibration/axis shift, minor changes in muzzle velocity, winddrift, gravity,.... all have little to no influence on the damage done by a HE shell.
No magic damage absorbtion.

Real role and info warfare would be the biggest buff for lights.

Quote

IMO, PGI should make IS ACs stream fire with two projectiles per shot.

Leave the ACs alone. Stop the nerftrain.
Fix the broken hitreg and hitboxes on some mech instead of ruining ever more weapon systems.

[Matthew Ace]

Why not go all the way and make glancing blow for all mechs? Make it weapon-based.

For all ballistic and hitscan weapons:
They consist of 2 components. They would have their hitbox size divided between small and larger. Damage is divided 50/50. It will be easier to do the first half of damage from but harder to do the full damage.

[Alistair Winter]

El Bandito, on 18 January 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

I personally will be pissed if I managed to land an AC20 or Gauss on the Light mech only to let it deal reduced damage. As if hit reg is not eating my bullets already...

I'm sure you would. But in any given fight between a Commando / Locust and a medium / heavy / assault with an AC20 or Gauss, my money is on the heavier mech. I'm sure people would feel it's unfair, but everyone seems remarkably comfortable that some mechs in this game are simply exceedingly crappy.

When swarms of Locusts and Commandos are tearing up Timber Wolves and Dragon Slayers, I'll change my mind. So far, the fastest mechs in the game are just mosquitos hitting the windshield of Dire Wolves.

El Bandito, on 18 January 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

IMO, PGI should make IS ACs stream fire with two projectiles per shot. That will help the Lights out. Then globally nerf mechs' top speed so hit reg will be better and this game will feel more like an actual mech game.

I'd definitely be in favour of that too. As for globally lowering speed, it would effectively be a buff for assault mechs. Let's say you reduced the speed of all mechs in the game by 50%. Assault mechs would instantly be twice as popular, because it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. If you were to globally reduce speeds, you would need to make it more difficult to hit targets. Removing convergence, for example. I mean, there's a reason the RVN-2X and RVN-4X are suddenly more viable. When they had an XL245 engine cap, they were easy targets. With an XL275 engine, they're just fast enough to survive.

occusoj, on 18 January 2015 - 06:03 PM, said:

And when it hits then it should cause normal damage.
Barrel vibration/axis shift, minor changes in muzzle velocity, winddrift, gravity,.... all have little to no influence on the damage done by a HE shell.
No magic damage absorbtion.
Real role and info warfare would be the biggest buff for lights.

Role warfare and info warfare isn't happening. Not ever. I'm looking for practical solutions that would make the underpowered light mechs viable choices. Not pipe dreams from 2012.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Only issue with glancing blows, is then the game has to track shell trajectories and angles and crap....this game seems to have enough issues without adding extra steps to dealing damage. Then we will have it where the game lagged just wrong and you clearly slammed a mech square on with 3 AC10s and thought you were to deal 30 dmg, but the game decided the hit box hadnt caught up yet and you deal 3.....

[Burktross]

as someone who recently started piloting lolcusts
no pls