57 replies to this topic

[CocoaJin]

Now that I think about it, it would seem AC rounds aren't AP/purely kinetic rounds...Sarna actually lists AP rounds as specialty munitions.

This suggests that AC rounds are HE(possibly even HEAT or HEAP) type munitions...the high explosive aspect of these rounds may very well be the best way to wear down ablative armor and likely very consistent with the nature of armor depletion before internal damage we see on mechs. One of the beautiful things about HE rounds is that impact angle is not nearly as critical as it would be for an AP around, and there is no glancing effect for the explosive discharge....meaning, if the AC found hits, it more than likely blows, the mech gets the full brunt of the rounds damage.

Edited by CocoaJin, 18 January 2015 - 06:20 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

LordKnightFandragon, on 18 January 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

Only issue with glancing blows, is then the game has to track shell trajectories and angles and crap....this game seems to have enough issues without adding extra steps to dealing damage. Then we will have it where the game lagged just wrong and you clearly slammed a mech square on with 3 AC10s and thought you were to deal 30 dmg, but the game decided the hit box hadnt caught up yet and you deal 3.....

Well, this is why I'm suggesting a simple arithmetic rather than geometric calculations. For the sake of not complicating things.

Burktross, on 18 January 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

as someone who recently started piloting lolcusts
no pls

I don't really care about the people who are able to do well in a Locust. Whenever you start a thread about the Locust, there's always some joker who says he regularly does 1500 damage with only flamers and an SRM2+Artemis. It doesn't really change the premise of the thread, which is the fact that the Locust, Commando and non-ECM Spiders are arguably the least popular and least dangerous (on average) mechs in the game. Getting a Commando on your team is like winning the lottery. Except the Commando will probably die after doing 81 dmg.

[FupDup]

As somebody who very frequently defends lights on the forums, and opposes people asking for nerfs to them, I actually don't like this idea very much. It feels a bit "magical" to an extent, and projectile weapons are already harder to hit with (against any target, but especially really fast ones) than lazors.

I believe that mechs should only receive lower than normal damage if they equip a specialty armor type (i.e. Reflective, Reactive, etc.) and/or ones that might get damage resistance quirks ("juggernaut" role).

----

I am 100% completely on-board with finding some sort of way to make non-FS9 lights more attractive choices, but I'd prefer different means.

Edited by FupDup, 18 January 2015 - 07:09 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Eonai, on 18 January 2015 - 05:34 PM, said:

The idea seems fun, but what's the logic behind it? A projectile hitting a body moving at a certain velocity would still be affected by it's full impact force wouldn't it?

More so if it was head on.

If you were going to add angles, absolutely not.

However, physics has no bearing here. None. Zero. Get that idea out of your head.

[Latorque]

Alistair Winter, on 18 January 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

What? I don't think I ever said it did.

Sorry; must have misread

Alistair Winter, on 18 January 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

Exactly. Same with good Locust pilots and good Mist Lynx pilots. The pilots are good. Most people can't do 100 dmg in those mechs.

I don't doubt it. If Hit Registration works; piloting any light is quite a handful in this game.

If i'm honest; i only drive the lights that annoyed the hell out of me - back when i was piloting my DRG-Flame, sporting an LB-X and 4 MLas. Should have been quite a nice surprise for lights; but it was as weak as a kitten against the SDR-plague, but the feeling once those little ****ers were legged, shoving the giant shotgun right in their face... . Ah- hum; excuse me. Still thinking about trying my hand at the locust; but first i need to get me a Mad Dog .

Alistair Winter, on 18 January 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

In CW, the Firestarter and Jenner are the bread and butter of IS teams. For this week's challenge, I think 75% of the light mechs I encountered were Firestarters. I must have seen 100 Firestarters for every Commando.

People are so terrified of buffing light mechs, but they're the least popular mechs in the game for a reason. With a few notable exceptions, they're considerably underpowered and difficult to use. The numbers speak for themselves. Few people are playing them, and they don't get as many kills, don't do as much damage as other classes. And this is especially true for the mechs I'm discussing in this thread - Spider 5V / 5K, Commando and Locust.

Definitly. The problem has its roots - and this goes hand in hand with my immediate end of any kind of interest in CW in its current form after my first three matches - more in the map design than in the continuing HSR-problems of some light chassis (or their lack thereof).

The CW maps were abominations of map design in my eyes; and the "fixes" were just a stopgap solution to the more profound problems of the light chassis' in general. Both CW maps offer a horrible bottleneck meatgrinder to the attackers. Now if i'm forced to charge in there; the very first chassis' in my mechlab that come to my mind are the FS and SDR - they're the only ones that have a chance of surviving the laservomit that comes out of the gate the very moment it is opened; in addition to being jump capable for taking out those generators.

Due to the maps offering no tactical movement options whatsoever (neither for attackers nor for defenders); pretty much every other dropdeck solution that doesn't contain 3-4 lights with wonky hitreg is... unadvisable.

So, up go three generators to buy those defenders a little more precious time to throw all they've got against that swarm of Firestarters - it alleviates the problem, but i wouldn't call that a solution - especially since it makes any other choice of mechs for the attackers even more unadvisable. If the clanners charge in; it's the very same in different weightclasses... the combi was 3x TBR / 1x SCR or the other way around? No idea; i don't pilot those . Again, both chassis' that are object to massive attacks of being completely OP and having strange hitboxes. OH, i forgot about ERPPC-TBRs, but i hope i brought the point across.

Although i've got nothing against the quirks as a means of balance; i'd rather see map design that caters to a variety of choices and doesn't force the player to absurd dropdecks in the metaflavor of the month - of course; there always will be a changing meta; but i'd like to see its effects alleviated. With open maps; there might even be a role for lights mechs as scouts or spotters in CW or something like that, without reducing the effect of a well-placed hit on a zigzagging Locust.

Btw; good username. Loved Alistair back in DA:O

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Commandos especially need a buff. I cant pull out my death knell cuz i get bullied by the firestarter a´s or some of the other uber firestarters

[occusoj]

Alistair Winter, on 18 January 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

Role warfare and info warfare isn't happening. Not ever. I'm looking for practical solutions that would make the underpowered light mechs viable choices. Not pipe dreams from 2012.

If its about band-aiding then just lower the servers tickrate to reward speed.
Doesnt need fancy mechanisms.

Once AC shells get nurfed when impacting fast moving targets because of such reasons, then convergence on a 140kph light thats bouncing around like mad must be nerfed too.
That huge slow lumbering AC20 barrel cant properly propell a shell onto a light because of its or the targets movement but 8 SPL perfectly combine into one place while the carrier runs at full speed over rough terrain.

In fact, going after convergence would be a buff for lights too. The worst to hit them is an AC20 but its projectile is already slow as molasses and CD is huge. Gauss is severly limited by its CD. AC10/PPC isnt that much of PPFLD. Multi-PPC is no longer of great danger as it wouldnt converge perfectly.
But thats another holy grail they wont touch.

Of course role- and infowarfare are pipe-dreams as long as money rains on PGI for doing more and more of the same. A sharp decrease in income would be quite good of a motivation to fix some things in MWO but thats a real pipe-dream I guess.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 18 January 2015 - 05:06 PM, said:

I just want to point out that 32 points of damage, at 148m range really isn't "death star level" firepower.

From reading the posts of Assault pilots that get backraged by them often... you'd think the Lolcust would be OP.


With respect to the topic, this doesn't sound like a good idea as I'd prefer higher speeds made available that don't break the game.. but at this point it doesn't appear to be the goal of PGI in 2015 at least... (Flea is DOA just on the announcement, especially after Russ's confirmation in the latest town hall IIRC).

[White Bear 84]

Alistair Winter, on 18 January 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

The issue is that the Locust and Commando are terrible mechs. All the light mechs in the game that can move faster than 155 kph are pretty terrible. Their speed and small size does not make up for their fragility and lack of firepower. Glancing hits (e.g. protecting from ballistics) would only help these light mechs, which are all clearly underpowered.

My locust does not like what you have to say about him...

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 18 January 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

From reading the posts of Assault pilots that get backraged by them often... you'd think the Lolcust would be OP.

I've been that Assault mech, left stranded or bad spawn and had a light mech eat my back out.

It's frustrating, I get it.

Most of the time though, this is something your lights and mediums should be aware of.

When I play my lights (rare) and mediums (more often), I don't tear off and jump into the enemy's face.

1) Because I like surviving.
2) Because I know my Assaults and to a lesser degree Heavies, need me in the backfield until the team is consolidated and they can overlap their fire and protect each other.


Even then, your job in those faster mechs is to be aware and respond when your bigs have something harassing them - you want your bigs focused on sending punishment downrange, not spinning around in place trying to shoot a light mech.

Deathlike, on 18 January 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

(Flea is DOA just on the announcement, especially after Russ's confirmation in the latest town hall IIRC).

Its OT, but the Flea was always DOA.

It has taken a silly amount of effort and quirks to make the locust only less of a joke mech.

We really don't have a need for a second joke mech that is almost the same mech, with a similar appearance, that will need a half dozen + quirks to not be completely awful.


The two have too many similarities to be able to create enough variation between all of their variants.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 18 January 2015 - 06:50 PM.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 18 January 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

Its OT, but the Flea was always DOA.

It has taken a silly amount of effort and quirks to make the locust only less of a joke mech.

We really don't have a need for a second joke mech that is almost the same mech, with a similar appearance, that will need a half dozen + quirks to not be completely awful.


The two have too many similarities to be able to create enough variation between all of their variants.

IMO, the Lolcust is still better than the Mist Lynx. Take that for what it is worth.

[Corbon Zackery]

We have a glancing hit system its called speed. Because we are moving at 150kph and your moving at 64kph to 100kph the water pistol effect of lasers has been magnified on a massive scale.

So buy the time you start to discharge a laser on one spot. Movement of both mechs have spread the damage to several area's of the mech with most of the full discharge missing. The longer duration of clan beams makes us take little to no damage.

The end result is 1.5 damage to each spot the beam passed through less if its clan based lasers.

That's why most veteran light pilots never stop moving.

This water pistol effect applies to clan auto cannons also.

Movement is key to a light mech survival.

[Davegt27]

sounds like a good idea to me

[Adiuvo]

This is essentially an RNG mechanic, something this game has done fairly well in staying away from. While those mechs need help, this isn't it.

Turn rate and accel/decel boosts will help, though the Locust is already fairly capped out on that. Not much you can do for it really.

Edited by Adiuvo, 18 January 2015 - 07:19 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I'd rather adjust base weapon values and adjust the heat system

[Y E O N N E]

I just want my Locust to turn faster. I think its durability is just fine, and making it more tanky will only further remove the thrill-factor. It's already been deadened by the weapon quirks.

Edit: Increased engine cap or stuffing all 10 heatsinks into the engines would be great, too.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 19 January 2015 - 02:21 AM.

[MauttyKoray]

Alistair Winter, on 18 January 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

So far PGI's solution to making light mechs more viable choices has been to increase their firepower. This leads to fun builds like the 8 SPL FS9-A, with Deathstar-level firepower on a 35 ton chassis. I know a lot of people are afraid to make the light mechs more powerful, but they're still the most unpopular class in the game.

As I'm writing this post, there's 30% assault mechs, 42% heavy mechs, 22% medium mechs and 6% light mechs in the queue.

How do you like the idea of implementing glancing hits for light mechs moving above, say, 152 kph? It basically means that ballistic weapons would do less damage against the mechs that are able to move faster than 155 kph. But it would only do less damage when they're moving really fast. So it has no effect on the Jenner or Firestarter, but it would help the survivability of Locusts, Commandos and Spiders when they're moving at top speed.

Yeah, Spiders are already hard to hit. But they're hardly a huge threat, they're not exactly Tier 1 mechs. They're just annoying. Especially for other light mechs, like the Locust, who don't really have any advantage over the Spiders. Spiders go just as fast, just as hard to hit, more armour and more firepower. But that's a different story.

Of course, those mechs would still be vulnerable to lasers, PPCs, LRMs and SSRMs. I have other solutions for that (convergence, making target locks harder to get, while increasing missile speed) but we already have enough threads discussing convergence and missiles.

TL;DR: Let mechs take less damage from ballistics when moving at 155+ kph. Firestarter, Raven and Jenner would be unaffected.

So you're taking the percentages during an event which requires a kill, assist, and win to qualify? That's idiotic... Of course Lights are insanely low right now, everyone is taking bigger stuff in order to get a kill.

[Alistair Winter]

Thanks for your feedback, guys. I guess most people fall into two camps. Some people seem to think that simply fixing convergence is a better and more elegant solution for helping underpowered light mechs. Other people seem to think nothing can be done for them.

If anything, this just makes me hope we get rid of the convergence even more than before.

For what it's worth, I do agree there's not much more you can do with Locust / Commando mobility. Making them accelerate from 0 to 170 kph at 0.1 second is just stupid. Same as letting them turn 180 degrees on a quarter at full speed. But simply saying that those mechs will always be terrible, as if it can't be helped, makes no sense. Unfortunately, that is the stance PGI seems to be taken. In this respect, I guess we can be glad they abandoned the Flea. They wouldn't have been able to make it work anyway.

MauttyKoray, on 19 January 2015 - 02:38 AM, said:

So you're taking the percentages during an event which requires a kill, assist, and win to qualify? That's idiotic... Of course Lights are insanely low right now, everyone is taking bigger stuff in order to get a kill.

And the ability to get kills is in no way indicative of whether a mech is overpowered or underpowered, right?

When you make arguments like this, it makes me care less about what you consider idiotic.

[MauttyKoray]

Alistair Winter, on 19 January 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

And the ability to get kills is in no way indicative of whether a mech is overpowered or underpowered, right?

When you make arguments like this, it makes me care less about what you consider idiotic.

A lot of people use lights to scout, TAG/Narc, and harass, not kill. People are taking the heavier mechs because this game's mechanic are broken as **** and heavier mechs can carry 60+ point alpha strike builds that can be used 2-3 times before needing to cool down (or if they even need to at all). It in no way has to do with whether or not the lights can get the kills or not (and believe me they can) but that people are taking advantage of the broken mechanics making heavier mechs more useful than lighter ones.

[Latorque]

MauttyKoray, on 19 January 2015 - 03:16 AM, said:

A lot of people use lights to scout, TAG/Narc, and harass, not kill. People are taking the heavier mechs because this game's mechanic are broken as **** and heavier mechs can carry 60+ point alpha strike builds that can be used 2-3 times before needing to cool down (or if they even need to at all). It in no way has to do with whether or not the lights can get the kills or not (and believe me they can) but that people are taking advantage of the broken mechanics making heavier mechs more useful than lighter ones.

Hm... i don't really see this too often . There is the occasional Raven3L packing a NARC, and hats off to those guys; but harrassing / skirmishing - which should be the strong suite of HitReg-blessed FSs is practically nonexistent.

The FS9A/9H/9K builds i see are built and used to kill, and nothing else. I'm kinda happy that i pilot the Ember when i go FS - it's got reasonable firepower; but not those excessive SPLas-vomit capabilities. I used the 9A when eliting though... and yes, it's a monster.

Even if you're not packing support - role equipment (TAG / NARC etc), i love to skirmish. If done right, one can stop whole lances on their way to the front while blipping on their Radar and drawing their fire; in addition to giving the own team at least an idea of the enemy's movement (hoping that they can read the minimap - regularly in vain ). I'd love to see all of the light chassis do at least that, and i'm looking forward to trying it in a Locust.