29 replies to this topic

[Sam Slade]

DISCLAIMER: Leave all lore arguments out of this vis a vis story line... game-play is more important.


DISCLAIMER Mk.2: To preclude the 'friends are OP' knee-jerking, this is more about maintaining a steady flow of CW fights then about who makes friends with who in Vassago's aptly named 'Space Game of Thrones'.

So at present it would appear that the two largest in game playable factions(Davion and Stiener) have abandoned full CW in favor of being Super Friends.

Personal feelings aside, this feels like a titanic waste of player resources and also feels (stress feels) contrary to the notion that player run units would not be making major tactical decisions... evidenced by the rather poor state of Houses Liao and Marik after attacks by Davion and Stiener units.  

As it is the largest units in the game are Fed Suns or Lyran aligned and many have built their home-baked lore around this.  So... how(and should) the Super Friends Super Pact be broken?

Personally I have always favored the Outreach system whereby units which have not declared wholly and solely as Loyalist are presented with contract options depending on which factions need troops(you want to be a merc... be a merc) though I can see how others would feel this is unfair(owning Clan mechs for example).

Another option is the 'Theater of Operations' approach in which players may choose to fight for multiple factions but are limited to very specific regions.  No DCMS fighting on the Jade Falcon/Steiner front for example: so a player could join both Kurita AND Steiner/Jade Falcons.  (This option is my favorite as I could be Clan Wolf and join a Marik or Liao unit).

Lastly there is the Timeline Events option in which PGI announces a rebellion or uprising(Skye, Capallea, St Ives, Robinson, etc...) along one of the many Marches and Mercs are contracted to intervene and support/suppress a revolt on an otherwise allied/friendly world.</p>Thoughts feedback?  Personally I think options two and three could both work in concert.</p>PS: Roadbeer you are too Purple bird biased to comment

Edited by Sam Slade, 28 December 2014 - 01:57 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Are you saying that there needs to be some kind of system in place that prevents people from making out of game alliances? Because that's not gonna work.

Maybe if you forced them to make X attacks on each other every day, but that's absurd.

[Alistair Winter]

You can only ignore lore so much before a large number of BT fans don't identify with the game anymore. Why even use the BT lore as a setting if one is not interested in being faithful at all? There's a balance between giving the players freedom, making a balanced and fun game and staying true to the original.

That being said, I think the solution is to let people have 2-3 characters per account. They should have done this ages ago.

But is Steiner + Davion really that much bigger than every other faction combined? I'm not so sure.

[Kjudoon]

Friendship is OP.
Plz nerf

[Vassago Rain]

Alistair Winter, on 28 December 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

You can only ignore lore so much before a large number of BT fans don't identify with the game anymore. Why even use the BT lore as a setting if one is not interested in being faithful at all? There's a balance between giving the players freedom, making a balanced and fun game and staying true to the original.

That being said, I think the solution is to let people have 2-3 characters per account. They should have done this ages ago.

But is Steiner + Davion really that much bigger than every other faction combined? I'm not so sure.

MWO is a PVP game, not game of thrones in space.

And yes, the blue fists and yellow swords command the most players.

[Sam Slade]

Vassago Rain, on 28 December 2014 - 12:21 AM, said:

Are you saying that there needs to be some kind of system in place that prevents people from making out of game alliances? Because that's not gonna work.

Maybe if you forced them to make X attacks on each other every day, but that's absurd.

way to totally miss the point AND fail to read a post

[NextGame]

Sam Slade, on 28 December 2014 - 12:07 AM, said:

DISCLAIMER: Leave all lore arguments out of this vis a vis story line... game-play is more important.

So at present it would appear that the two largest in game playable factions(Davion and Stiener) have abandoned full CW in favor of being Super Friends.

Personal feelings aside, this feels like a titanic waste of player resources and also feels (stress feels) contrary to the notion that player run units would not be making major tactical decisions... evidenced by the rather poor state of Houses Liao and Marik after attacks by Davion and Stiener units.

As it is the largest units in the game are Fed Suns or Lyran aligned and many have built their home-baked lore around this. So... how(and should) the Super Friends Super Pact be broken?

Personally I have always favored the Outreach system whereby units which have not declared wholly and solely as Loyalist are presented with contract options depending on which factions need troops(you want to be a merc... be a merc) though I can see how others would feel this is unfair(owning Clan mechs for example).

Another option is the 'Theater of Operations' approach in which players may choose to fight for multiple factions but are limited to very specific regions. No DCMS fighting on the Jade Falcon/Steiner front for example: so a player could join both Kurita AND Steiner/Jade Falcons. (This option is my favorite as I could be Clan Wolf and join a Marik or Liao unit).

Lastly there is the Timeline Events option in which PGI announces a rebellion or uprising(Skye, Capallea, St Ives, Robinson, etc...) along one of the many Marches and Mercs are contracted to intervene and support/suppress a revolt on an otherwise allied/friendly world.

Thoughts feedback? Personally I think options two and three could both work in concert.

Why should Steiner and Davion not be allowed to play the "alliance" game, when all of the clans have/had a ceasefire, and marik/liao have a ceasefire?

Not to mention that Steiner needs it most, due to their abominably terribad organisation.

Edited by NextGame, 28 December 2014 - 01:40 AM.

[Roadbeer]

Sam Slade, on 28 December 2014 - 12:07 AM, said:

evidenced by the rather poor state of Houses Liao and Marik after attacks by Davion and Stiener units.

Lolwut?

Fixed that for you.

[Alistair Winter]

Vassago Rain, on 28 December 2014 - 01:26 AM, said:

MWO is a PVP game, not game of thrones in space.
And yes, the blue fists and yellow swords command the most players.

What was the point of this post, exactly?

[AeusDeif]

Sam Slade, on 28 December 2014 - 12:07 AM, said:

Personally I have always favored the Outreach system whereby units which have not declared wholly and solely as Loyalist are presented with contract options depending on which factions need troops(you want to be a merc... be a merc) though I can see how others would feel this is unfair(owning Clan mechs for example).

Another option is the 'Theater of Operations' approach in which players may choose to fight for multiple factions but are limited to very specific regions. No DCMS fighting on the Jade Falcon/Steiner front for example: so a player could join both Kurita AND Steiner/Jade Falcons. (This option is my favorite as I could be Clan Wolf and join a Marik or Liao unit).

Lastly there is the Timeline Events option in which PGI announces a rebellion or uprising(Skye, Capallea, St Ives, Robinson, etc...) along one of the many Marches and Mercs are contracted to intervene and support/suppress a revolt on an otherwise allied/friendly world.

Thoughts feedback? Personally I think options two and three could both work in concert.

I think all of those options make sense, as well as some sort of faction vs. unaligned fights, like fighting against true pirates. In lore, factions sometimes employed untraceable mercs to fight other factions for them.

Option 2 is interesting because I was thinking dividing the factions into their regional subdivisions (marches) could have a strong balancing effect. Then have contracts pertain to border and have contracts be proportional so that each faction can put only 1 more unit on its border than is on the other side. So individual performance of units would come into play more, rather than sheer numbers.

Also throwing in the periphery states would add to this. You could have occasional fights between subdivisions, as well as fights with peripheries, and game modes that don't result in planetary conquest. More options in general.

As it stands there's nothing to prevent unit-to-unit alliances within and across factions, so eventually you'd probably see the map divided into two major blocs. Which seems kind of boring. BUT as they work on the balancing, there will be less need for some factions to do it, and less incentive. You know, simulating the forces that made the IS what it is in the first place.

Edited by AeusDeif, 28 December 2014 - 02:05 AM.

[AeusDeif]

Roadbeer, on 28 December 2014 - 01:48 AM, said:

Sam Slade, on 28 December 2014 - 12:07 AM, said:

evidenced by the rather poor state of Houses Liao and Marik after attacks by Davion and Stiener units.

Lolwut?

Fixed that for you.

is it not the case that Steiner has gained 3 Marik planets recently?

[Roadbeer]

AeusDeif, on 28 December 2014 - 02:01 AM, said:

is it not the case that Steiner has gained 3 Marik planets recently?

Only during the holiday Cease Fire when Merc units and "pirates" were attacking turrets, they've lost 2 back in as many days, that doesn't seem like a trend that's going to change soon.

[Satan n stuff]

Vassago Rain, on 28 December 2014 - 01:26 AM, said:

MWO is a PVP game, not game of thrones in space.

And yes, the blue fists and yellow swords command the most players.

Who are all busy fighting everyone else.

[pbiggz]

I'll say this much, a purer mercenary system is definitely called for (not because I agree with the OP) because right now, loyalist and merc units are the same and as a merc I'm not really FEELING the mechwarrior 2 Mercs vibe. Rewards for mercs who hold no particular loyalty and are actually tagged with the "faction" merc are currently wholly missing and its a damn shame.

[The Wakelord]

I play CW, but as a PUG. Can anyone explain to me what the OP is trying to get across?

Is it just '2 factions are taking too much space and not fighting each other, and this is lame'? That is kinda the point of the dynamic CW map isn't it? To take regions and expand (through whatever means)?

[Sam Slade]

The Wakelord, on 28 December 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

I play CW, but as a PUG. Can anyone explain to me what the OP is trying to get across?

Is it just '2 factions are taking too much space and not fighting each other, and this is lame'? That is kinda the point of the dynamic CW map isn't it? To take regions and expand (through whatever means)?

the concern is that CW will rapidly become stale as 'first-past-the-post' syndrome kicks in vis a vis loyalties and contract choices and the already large groups will overwhelm through sheer weight of numbers; hegemony or survival is a very real thing even in a virtual world.This raises the issue of sustainability; can CW endure without constant artificial map resets when large and mutually defensive groups have it in their power to benignly absorb opponents(turret stomps/uncontested attacks). This is why the above mentioned concepts were mooted as possible solutions; I'm heavily in favor of making contracts to garrison worlds far harder to find and making tryouts for an 'NPC' Lone Wolf merc unit a thing before you can sign up.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Sam Slade, on 28 December 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

the concern is that CW will rapidly become stale as 'first-past-the-post' syndrome kicks in vis a vis loyalties and contract choices and the already large groups will overwhelm through sheer weight of numbers; hegemony or survival is a very real thing even in a virtual world.This raises the issue of sustainability; can CW endure without constant artificial map resets when large and mutually defensive groups have it in their power to benignly absorb opponents(turret stomps/uncontested attacks). This is why the above mentioned concepts were mooted as possible solutions; I'm heavily in favor of making contracts to garrison worlds far harder to find and making tryouts for an 'NPC' Lone Wolf merc unit a thing before you can sign up.

This is where PGI needs to get creative, and tie in bonuses and resources to planets to make this an actual war as opposed to who has the most dots, If Marik has a planet with a "bonus" that is useful and Stiener wants that bonus, then go get it.

At the moment there is no incentive to anything.

Add to this an actual Merc contract system where the mercs can switch to whoever pays the most and you should see some movement.

Edited by DV McKenna, 28 December 2014 - 05:27 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Only if it means that the Clans can get nerfed yet again and the IS can drive them out of the Inner Sphere before Tukkayid ever happens.

We've already ignored important pieces of the timeline...pieces that we actually have mechs for (no 4th succession war, no Federated Commonwealth, no St. Ives Compact. No St. Ives Compact, No Kai Allard Liao, no Yen-Lo-Wang).

Perhaps if we allow "Canadian Rules" and let the IS forces destroy the Clans, we can start over from the beginning and do it right.

[Donas]

{responses imbedded bold/italic into Sam Slade's quote, to reduce the number of quote windows.}

Sam Slade, on 28 December 2014 - 12:07 AM, said:

Personal feelings aside, this feels like a titanic waste of player resources....

we're talking two planets that aren't being fought on, and those factions have no shortage of utilization of pilots. So if you're just talking about Dave/Steve I don't see the issue. There are other Houses (Liao) who only have 2 fronts and they are effectively cutting their playable border area in half by setting up a ceasefire with Marik. I say 'playable border area' because those pilots still have all of the clan invasion worlds that they can fight on in defense of the Inner Sphere. (a purely lore based addition by PGI to INCREASE the amount of player participation for the small front factions, since they can just freebee teleport to the clan border and back) So where I think I see where you're coming from and I agree with some other points you make, this one (even with the disclaimer of "feels like") doesn't quite connect for me.

.....and also feels (stress feels) contrary to the notion that player run units would not be making major tactical decisions...

See? And here we are right back on the same page. And it happened in less than a sentence. I would LOVE for the faction loyalists and individual merc groups to be able to influence exactly what planets are being attacked. In my perfect world I envision some sort of voting que, though that could slow things considerably, or it would take place in a short window after ceasefire/reorganization and would cater to only one timezone. (Unless the combat phase was 26 hours, effectively making it a rotating "prime time")...... ooo.... I like that.... 26 hour attack phase... hmm.....

Lastly there is the Timeline Events option in which PGI announces a rebellion or uprising(Skye, Capallea, St Ives, Robinson, etc...) along one of the many Marches and Mercs are contracted to intervene and support/suppress a revolt on an otherwise allied/friendly world.

Also a pretty cool idea, I could see this being a weekend event, where the attack phases on the rebel worlds are much shorter, with significant bonuses and rewards for participants who either rebel or stamp out the rebellion.


PS: Roadbeer you are too Purple bird biased to comment

Roadbeer doesn't need me to defend him, but I'm going to anyway out of respect. He's EARNED his voice here, and like him or not, you'd be doing well in any constructive discussion about game mechanics to have him involved.

Attempting to limit a perceived dissenting opinion per-emptively, even in jest, only serves to lower the volume on your own broadcast, regardless of the validity of any suggestion you may have.

DV McKenna, on 28 December 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

This is where PGI needs to get creative, and tie in bonuses and resources to planets to make this an actual war as opposed to who has the most dots, If Marik has a planet with a "bonus" that is useful and Stiener wants that bonus, then go get it.

At the moment there is no incentive to anything.

Add to this an actual Merc contract system where the mercs can switch to whoever pays the most and you should see some movement.

^^^^^ these ideas here. I even have a vague memory way back when we were initially being told of what CW would hold, and "planets with specific bonuses" and "Player generated contracts" (ie. world bounties, player bounties) were both in there... it was a long time ago, so I may be off. But I'd still love to see those.

[Sam Slade]

Willard Phule, on 28 December 2014 - 06:28 AM, said:

\
We've already ignored important pieces of the timeline...pieces that we actually have mechs for (no 4th succession war, no Federated Commonwealth, no St. Ives Compact.  No St. Ives Compact, No Kai Allard Liao, no Yen-Lo-Wang).

exactly! So why stop now?PPS: no voice until he proves he's the real Roadbeer Marik and not some filth Comstar plant

Edited by Sam Slade, 28 December 2014 - 09:09 AM.