54 replies to this topic

[Thunder Child]

I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I've found that having a random 5 or 10 pack on any build is invaluable.

This is because as you advance or while you are out of LoS, you can lob supporting missiles that may just distract the enemy long enough for you or a teammate to reach cover, or force an enemy into cover.

They are a very tactical weapon. Skilless? No. To be honest though, they are less affected by skill now with the faster travel time. It used to be that a skilled LRM Pilot could launch a salvo, deliberately break lock, then reacquire it at a crucial moment to bypass cover. I have seen people guide flights through the upper section of river city, and through the heavy urban of Crimson Straights. To me, that requires far more skill than the average level point click of Lasers or Ballistics. Don't get me wrong, those guys that can put dual Gauss into a light mid jump between buildings have skill too. It's just a different set of skill.

As to LRM Boats, they do kind of have their place in the game, but personally, I'd like to see them redesigned in some manner to make them more effective in direct fire fights, while making indirect fire more of a saturation ability. A tool for area denial. I know it doesn't appeal to all, but I would love a world of tanks artillery style firing mechanism. I used to love doing support fire in that game. It was all about knowing where to setup to get the best arc on your shells, without exposing yourself to enemy direct fire. Much like how most Battletech Fire Lances operated. It also would mean that while you are in Fire Support mode, you would lose basic mech functionality. Dunno. Could work, probably wouldn't. But it would be a nice change to be able to anticipate enemy movement, instead of requiring a lock to lob them. Even a ground effect crosshair would work for me.

[Kjudoon]

This match played at 8-16fps.

ON1-VA 40LRMs w/ Artemis
Tag
and the Mighty Medium Lazor of DOOOOOOoooooooommmmmmmm!!!!!!!

Lovingly called "The Pain Train".


Know your role, love it, live it.

[Karenai]

Thunder Child, on 28 December 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

As to LRM Boats, they do kind of have their place in the game, but personally, I'd like to see them redesigned in some manner to make them more effective in direct fire fights, while making indirect fire more of a saturation ability. A tool for area denial. I know it doesn't appeal to all, but I would love a world of tanks artillery style firing mechanism. I used to love doing support fire in that game. It was all about knowing where to setup to get the best arc on your shells, without exposing yourself to enemy direct fire. Much like how most Battletech Fire Lances operated. It also would mean that while you are in Fire Support mode, you would lose basic mech functionality. Dunno. Could work, probably wouldn't. But it would be a nice change to be able to anticipate enemy movement, instead of requiring a lock to lob them. Even a ground effect crosshair would work for me.

Fixing Artemis IV would do it. It still counts while you have no line of sight. I would even go as far as spreading LRMs even further apart then without Artemis IV when using them without line of sight, instead of keeping the Artemis IV tight spread. Would make them into pure supression weapons while out of sight.

Edited by Karenai, 28 December 2014 - 11:35 PM.

[crustydog]

I use the LRM's as a means of scoring points with new mechs - the ones that can hardly move otherwise and are nearly useless in a direct fire or brawling role. Easy picking for lights, sure, but you have a good chance of surviving the first half of the match, while still doing damage and offering support for your team, and the assists and extra xp earned help you to level up the mech much faster. Lrms can also kill mechs you might otherwise never defeat in a new mech.

I mean, why not use LRMs when a new mech is nearly defenseless until you get it unlocked? As the mech becomes more flexible, the ability to fight at closer ranges improves.

[El Bandito]

crustydog, on 29 December 2014 - 12:46 AM, said:

I use the LRM's as a means of scoring points with new mechs - the ones that can hardly move otherwise and are nearly useless in a direct fire or brawling role. Easy picking for lights, sure, but you have a good chance of surviving the first half of the match, while still doing damage and offering support for your team, and the assists and extra xp earned help you to level up the mech much faster. Lrms can also kill mechs you might otherwise never defeat in a new mech.

I mean, why not use LRMs when a new mech is nearly defenseless until you get it unlocked? As the mech becomes more flexible, the ability to fight at closer ranges improves.

Yep, that's what I did when I was eliting the Cent-A and Cent AL. Triple LRM10s FTW.

[Vassago Rain]

Get a new computer.
15 FPS isn't playable, no matter what ubisoft tells you.

[Yokaiko]

I usual start lumming it up when the QQ reaches critical mass.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Vassago Rain, on 29 December 2014 - 12:53 AM, said:

Get a new computer.
15 FPS isn't playable, no matter what ubisoft tells you.

My 8 FPS in CW s so cinematic!
10 FPS and above is playable enough to me, as long as it doesn't go any lower or randomly frame lags.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Come to think of it, the LRM is the ONLY weapon system that requires team work to be effective (currently in game that is).
Sure, you can be effective if you have spot while using the other weapons, but if you hold those locks, the LRMs can be a game changer. The TAG/NARC exists to support LRM boats after all! You can still use LRMs without your team mates having to spot/hold targets, but it wouldn't be as effective if you're working together.
When spotters and LRM boats work together and slaughters everyone in the battlefield, it doesn't make LRMs OP.
Teamwork is OP, not LRMs.

[Appogee]

I play LRMs when I need to grind Cbills quickly.

Remote lock, set and forget, kerching.

When I want to play for fun and skill, I use ballistics.

[Thunder Child]

Karenai, on 28 December 2014 - 11:10 PM, said:

Fixing Artemis IV would do it. It still counts while you have no line of sight. I would even go as far as spreading LRMs even further apart then without Artemis IV when using them without line of sight, instead of keeping the Artemis IV tight spread. Would make them into pure supression weapons while out of sight.

That's not quite what I had in mind. It WOULD do the trick, for making them a suppression weapon, provided you could maintain a lock. What I had in mind was more a removal of indirect guidance, but being able to instead fire at a given point on the battlegrid, so to speak. It would actually be akin to the Artillery targeting mode in WoT (although blatantly ripping that off would probably incur the Wrath of the WoT devs), allowing a player to manually target a location. Missile Flight speed would have to be increased dramatically, however.

Coupled to this would be a change in how LRMs and ALRMs interact with Narc and TAG.

Standard LRMs, when lobbed indirectly, would fly to the target location. However, if they pass within 180m of an Active Narc beacon (10s duration, countered by ECM), ALL Missiles would home on that location with a tight spread. Standard LRMs are unaffected by TAG, and have a normal Spread.

Artemis Missiles however, would home on an enemy locked by TAG laser when fired indirectly, but if the lock is lost, the missiles go dumb. So if the spotter pulls the beam off target, or the target moves rapidly, the missiles lose guidance and go to the last target point. ECM is unaffected by, nor does it affect, TAG. When fired indirectly, Artemis Missiles have a wide spread. They are unaffected by Narc.
When fired Directly however, Artemis Missiles follow the crosshair of the firing mech. The Lore does state they use an invisible targeting laser to guide them, after all. To this regard, although the missiles WOULD still spread, an Artemis Guided system fired directly (without the use of the bombardment system) would track wherever the crosshair is centred. So if the player holds a steady bead on the right torso for example, the missiles would cluster on that, much like the current SRMs do.

Both systems would have a dramatically improved flight speed as well, (about the same as SRMs).

So, in conclusion, both types of LRMs have an SRM flight pattern when fired directly, and a high trajectory when fired using the Indirect, or Artillery, mode. Standard LRMs would divert their flight towards any active Narc Beacon they pass within 180m of, regardless of firing mode. They have a standardised Spread, regardless of Direct or Indirect firing.
Artemis LRMs would track the TAG'ed enemy when fired indirectly, but when fired Directly, would cluster around the Crosshair, and follow it till impact. This would effectively make Standard LRMs the weapon of choice for Area Denial and Bombardment, but allow Artemis equipped missiles to become the "Skillfire" weapons that so many people claim they want them to be.

But hey, it's just a crazy idea that has far too many convoluted mechanics, for a weapon system that is fine as is.

"Nerf Rogues, Warriors are Fine. Sincerely, Mage".

[Kjudoon]

Shiroi Tsuki, on 29 December 2014 - 01:01 AM, said:

My 8 FPS in CW s so cinematic!
10 FPS and above is playable enough to me, as long as it doesn't go any lower or randomly frame lags.

No, serious, I used to be just like you. Save your pennies, but when I could play this game at 40-60FPS at ultra high everything... it was a new world. The game was so different to me because I could brawl and see targets inside 300m and do something about them dependably. You can enjoy this game greatly without it, but, seriously, you will love it all the more.

Of course, what you can end up with after gaining all that skill is this:



I now can use the LRMs to deal tactically with targets and herd them in to my guns or soften enemies before I engage. The first half is boring, as it's all about posissioning and finding the right place to engage the enemy on a tough LRM map. The second half of the video is more about what this mech design can bring. The Caesus Lux has rapidly become my favorite mech in the game though I wish I could shoehorn 1-2 more tons of LRMs.

Something else I want to point out that are skill based moves on experience in this video that maybe others don't think much of, but I do for it comes with familiarity with the weapon.

1. The Atlas: When I realize I have him on the ropes, and he has LRMs too, I close inside his range just enough that I can waddle out of range, fire, then walk back in towards the end. It saves me from a lot of damage at one point.

2. Engaging the Dire Wolf and Timberwolf: I use the MPLs which are very high mounted to soften and drive back the enemy, then to lob the shot over the low cover while partaking of it myself. I do not spap the missiles too much because I know their cover will protect them pretty darn well from most of it, preferring to get 20 points where I can and keeping the psychological pressure on them with that and the chained MPLs.

3. Watching sight lines: Early, when at the airport, I spend time watching that radar dish which both protects me and takes away many shots, so I am always aware of what flight path the shots will use once I know about where the angles are going. At the end, it prevents me from losing 2-4 salvos I need when engaging in the water, even though I was desiring to fire.

4. The primary weapon on that BLR is the MPLs, but barely. The quirks make the weapons more powerful for me, and so that influenced the design. What is even more powerful is the speed in which I could duck back into cover, and position myself. Yes, even an assault can 'dance' if you have a fast enough engine. Never assume your LRM mech should be slow because ammo is not always more important.

Edited by Kjudoon, 29 December 2014 - 05:32 AM.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Kjudoon, on 29 December 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

No, serious, I used to be just like you. Save your pennies, but when I could play this game at 40-60FPS at ultra high everything... it was a new world. The game was so different to me because I could brawl and see targets inside 300m and do something about them dependably. You can enjoy this game greatly without it, but, seriously, you will love it all the more.

Of course, what you can end up with after gaining all that skill is this:



I now can use the LRMs to deal tactically with targets and herd them in to my guns or soften enemies before I engage. The first half is boring, as it's all about posissioning and finding the right place to engage the enemy on a tough LRM map. The second half of the video is more about what this mech design can bring. The Caesus Lux has rapidly become my favorite mech in the game though I wish I could shoehorn 1-2 more tons of LRMs.

Something else I want to point out that are skill based moves on experience in this video that maybe others don't think much of, but I do for it comes with familiarity with the weapon.

1. The Atlas: When I realize I have him on the ropes, and he has LRMs too, I close inside his range just enough that I can waddle out of range, fire, then walk back in towards the end. It saves me from a lot of damage at one point.

2. Engaging the Dire Wolf and Timberwolf: I use the MPLs which are very high mounted to soften and drive back the enemy, then to lob the shot over the low cover while partaking of it myself. I do not spap the missiles too much because I know their cover will protect them pretty darn well from most of it, preferring to get 20 points where I can and keeping the psychological pressure on them with that and the chained MPLs.

3. Watching sight lines: Early, when at the airport, I spend time watching that radar dish which both protects me and takes away many shots, so I am always aware of what flight path the shots will use once I know about where the angles are going. At the end, it prevents me from losing 2-4 salvos I need when engaging in the water, even though I was desiring to fire.

4. The primary weapon on that BLR is the MPLs, but barely. The quirks make the weapons more powerful for me, and so that influenced the design. What is even more powerful is the speed in which I could duck back into cover, and position myself. Yes, even an assault can 'dance' if you have a fast enough engine. Never assume your LRM mech should be slow because ammo is not always more important.

Nice run! That Sakuya though

[Nightshade24]

StraferX, on 28 December 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

Please forgive me as I have probably been the one who in my inner voice have been asking why? I so understand with the low FPS but you just don't know that when your in the heat of the battle.

I don't hate LRM's but I hate the way they are implemented. The current state makes them exactly as you state easy mode point and click and as much as I know this will never change I wish a more tactical use could be made for LRM pilots. I stand in aw in the cover of a tall structure watching as some poor sap gets pummeled to death by 5 LRM boats firing hundreds of rockets.

I wish you had better FPS and could join in the brawl.

How is it more easy mode then other weapons? From my understanding Lasers and Ballistics have less problems then LRM's by far... On top of that but competitive players never use LRM's.

http://imgur.com/a/iGK07 (I made a visual album of images I quickly checked. English isn't my first language and it's 3 am so don't judge the spelling and grammar. This is just a visualastion of Missiles verse Ballistics and Energy)

LRM's targeting at a stationary target requires as much skill as any other weapon.
LRM's targeting a moving target requires more skill then Lasers but less then (certain) Ballistics. (Removing timing and terrain problems and ways to overcome terrain problems)

LRM's have to avoid certain targets and situations while some mechs can just do what ever they want on certain weapons and builds.


The only reason LRM's seems OP is that they can hit you without you hitting back and the warning and long visuals and travel time they have. They are more noticeable then say, Gauss rifles or UAC 5's. If you ran into a UAC 5 direwolf and got blown to bits you noticed he has UAC 5 but you only blame yourself for the situation that lead to your death (ie you didn't try hard enough to kill the direwolf, or you walked into the bad situation)

When you get poundered by say an LRM stalker, You get bitching betty yelling incoming LRM's and you see the LRM's come to you and sometimes you feel helpless as you can't avoid the situation. Thus you do not blame yourself for the helplessness but instead you blame the LRM's.
When you got both LRM's and UAC 5's firing on you for example, most of your attention is off the UAC 5 and focused on the LRM's due to bitching betty and the LRM's being the avoidable projectile while UAC5's practically as soon as it leaves the barrel it is impossible to avoid. That and when LRM's hit you it litters your mech with hit markers and explosions making it hard to notice the UAC 5's.


That is my hypothesis. LRM's have a odd learning curve. Energy weapons are practically at a constant slope.
Ballistics is a bit off a curve but after you get past the steep learning curve you got the hang off it and there is often not much to improve upon in terms of firing. But for LRM's there is a steep learning curve, then it levels out for awhile, Then there is another steep climb, And it stops around mastery.

It does take a lot off skill to get insane damage in an LRM boat or kill assists/ kills in an average LRM mech.\

Normally my method of testing people out on LRM abilities and skills within my unit is pretty much telling them to go buy a locust and show me a game where you got 300 + damage in an LRM locust and at least a satisfactory kills/ kill assist.

If they do get 300+ then I consider them a skilled LRM boater. If they struggle to get over 50 then often that means there method of LRM boats is just standing there and firing at the target. often losing locks or letting enemies get to much damage on them. This is a fun and cheap way for me to see how good people are at LRM boats as it often lets me see there mind set for LRM's. (do they put a medium laser or a pair of smalls? do they stuff it to 4 LRM 5's or just keep it at 1 or 2, do they get into position? etc.... it's also dirt cheap, most 'good' lrm builds in a locust is 2 million or less c-bills.)


(Also note: FPS and Lag can contribute to making LRM's easier compaired to other weapons. However I run the game between 10 (worst times) to 30 (average good times) FPS and I have a ping of 230 and live on the other side of earth but I still have no problems using other weapons. (I consider Lasers easier then LRM's for the most time.)

The only problem is I struggle to hit a CT or leg intentionally on a 160+ kph light mech with an AC 20.



Just poking this out there as quite a few people keep saying it's EZ mode here. To me from what I can see ER large laser seem more easy mode.

LRM's require more on team work, co ordination, and timing and position skills. (however we can argue all weapons do this eh?)


Edit: I used google searching to find some assets to use for the mech silhouette and it is used under fair use. Rights go to the respective owner(s). And yes, the last panel has a Critical Hits reference.

Edited by Nightshade24, 29 December 2014 - 06:16 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Shiroi Tsuki, on 29 December 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Nice run! That Sakuya though

He so kill snaked me 4 times! Drove me nuts! LOL... But I still got the high score of the match and over 300k cbills.

Edited by Kjudoon, 29 December 2014 - 06:21 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Nightshade, those are some good points. I'd say the learning curve for LRMs is an 'S' curve. Easy to pick up, very hard to master, with steady growth at the end. I think I'm only a fair support pilot but people keep telling me I'm good, so I stopped arguing and just accept I do what I do. Hopefully my advice and encouragement to other LRM pilots, new players and those with slow equipment is encouraging.

You still are killing with the equivalent of a belt sander, taking off layers, but you still can be an effective member of your team both in a psy-op method, suppressing the enemy movement and softening targets. that is all part of what I mean by "Know Your Role, Live it, Love it." in regards to LRMs though it holds true for many others.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

That's true. I often find myself not hitting targets when providing indirect fire support. My main LRM boat is my C4. I sometimes have to use my jumpjets before firing when I'm behind cover, or trenches (kind a like jump sniping, but with LRMs). I also have to re-adjust my arms, so that the missiles will have a clear travel path, and then re-acquire the lock and do it again. Sometimes, I have to do both (often happens in Canyon)

[Kjudoon]

LuRMtarting provided a huge counterbattery to poptarts. So many claimed it didn't, but that's cause they didn't do it right.

[NovaFury]

They're handy when you're too drunk to hold lasers on target but still want to play with your friends. Or your ISP decides they don't want to fix your faulty lines and your ping jumps to 1200 after a light drizzle. Or HSR isn't working. There's plenty of good reasons to use LRMs, I suppose.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I don't find "Lurmtarting" to be effective based on my experience. The only reason why I do/did it is because I was far back behind our lines in Canyon, and I didn't have time to go around the "trenches" and position myself in a better spot.