98 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

Alek Ituin, on 29 December 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

Honestly, if some random IS Mech could perform even close to the Warhawk with the same loadout, I'd be incredibly disappointed.

My Awesome's cry for you then, at least in the PPC game.

[Mazzyplz]

and now the thunderbolt can out ppc the awesome even, wut?

[Alek Ituin]

Yokaiko, on 29 December 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

My Awesome's cry for you then, at least in the PPC game.

Already addressed Awesomes as being the IS analogue to the Warhawk. Therefore, an Awesome performing similarly to a Warhawk with the same laodout is perfectly acceptable, due to what the Awesome was designed for.

[Yokaiko]

Mazzyplz, on 29 December 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

and now the thunderbolt can out ppc the awesome even, wut?

Kind of debatable, TBR9S can out ER-PPC the AWS-9M.....but its pretty close really, the TBR has a better bonus the -9M has more heatsinks.

......the -8Q can fire standards till the damn cows come home, but its big, and even slower. Its another vicitm of Engine limits.

Alek Ituin, on 29 December 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

Already addressed Awesomes as being the IS analogue to the Warhawk. Therefore, an Awesome performing similarly to a Warhawk with the same laodout is perfectly acceptable, due to what the Awesome was designed for.

No there is nothing you can do to make a 4 ER-PPC Warhawk handle like an Awesome currently.

[Water Bear]

Alek Ituin, on 29 December 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

My HBK-4P can take Clan Heavies and pimp slap them in to submission. My YLW took out 2 Stormcrows, a Warhawk, crippled a Timberwolf, and some random IS Mech I don't remember.

Both of them can survive encounters like that, but my YLW was a little worse for wear... (read: My YLW had one red leg, no left arm, an orange right arm, both torsos opened, and red CT armor by the end of it all. Torso twisting FTFW.)


Honestly, it all comes down to choosing how and when you attack. If you let the Clan pilot dictate the flow of the battle, you'll lose more often than not. But, if you in your IS Mech can pick and choose when and where you engage, you'll win just about every time. Tactics, positioning, and situational awareness are tools that will allow you to bring the fight to the "superior" Clan Mechs. Learn to use them.

This is called anecdotal evidence. If match data indicates that clan teams beat inner sphere teams at equal ELO, then it's fair to conclude that clan teams are stronger. Individual skills and successes don't really matter. My favorite example: If a chess master can beat an opponent by starting his game with only 5 pieces, that doesn't mean that starting a game of chess with only 5 pieces is a good idea.

[Andi Nagasia]

i VOTE ADVANCE THE TIME LINE,
to 3060,
IS gets all their cool stuff,
that will make them more "balanced" vs Clans
LFE
Light/Heavy-Gauss,
ER-SL/ML
ER-SPL/MPL/LPL
MRMs
and Clans get,
Large-Lasers
ATM-Launchers,
then perhaps we can start rolling back some Omni Nerfs

[Burktross]

Vassago Rain, on 28 December 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

Community warfare in picture form.

The absolute best thing I've seen all year.
*Salute*

Anyway op.
I'm not saying clan is MOST O.P. NEED NERF PLEASE
But it certainly has advantages over even the most well kitted out IS configs.
Only timeline progression will help this.
(LFE)

Mazzyplz, on 29 December 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

and now the thunderbolt can out ppc the awesome even, wut?

You wot m8?
I own a thunderbolt and an awesome.
Both of them disagree.

[DONTOR]

Wendigo Vendetta, on 28 December 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

IS has better laser vomit, better LRM's, better PPC's, better SRM's, better autocannons.

Laser vommit meh, LRMs have a case for being in favor on the i.s. side, i.s. does have a much cooler PPC option (we dont even have our actual 15 damage CERPPC, lucky you), our CSRMs are vastly superior, and your AC's are far superior to our CUAC's.

[Alek Ituin]

Water Bear, on 29 December 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

This is called anecdotal evidence. If match data indicates that clan teams beat inner sphere teams at equal ELO, then it's fair to conclude that clan teams are stronger. Individual skills and successes don't really matter. My favorite example: If a chess master can beat an opponent by starting his game with only 5 pieces, that doesn't mean that starting a game of chess with only 5 pieces is a good idea.

It also doesn't mean that winning a game with 5 pieces is impossible. It just means you need to be smarter, faster, and better than your opponent. Again, tactics win the day. Even a force of "inferior" vehicles can beat "superior" vehicles if the people commanding them aren't idiots.

I suppose you'd like to call the myriad military victories, experience of generals, tactical manuals, and books detailing the art of war (including Sun Tzu's Art of War) anecdotal evidence as well? Each one will stress the utmost importance of using the proper tactics in combat, which can allow you to win even the most lopsided battles.


But actually having a knowledge of strategies and tactics is to much to expect from the average MechWarrior I suppose...

Yokaiko, on 29 December 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

No there is nothing you can do to make a 4 ER-PPC Warhawk handle like an Awesome currently.

Because the Awesome uses PPC's, not ERPPC's, and has insane quirks that make it a walking PPC MG nest. So nothing can boat PPC's like an Awesome because nothing has the Awesome's quirks.

That said, an Awesome boating 4 LPL's and a Warhawk boating 4 LPL's should perform similarly, due to energy boating being their primary design purpose. Which was the original focus of the post, a Warhawk boating 4 LPL's shouldn't be outdone by anything but another dedicated heavy energy boat.

Edited by Alek Ituin, 29 December 2014 - 09:50 AM.

[Tesunie]

WARNING! LONG POST AHEAD!
I'll place quotes in a spoiler to save some space. You guys responded too much while I was asleep and at work!
(The coding also went crazy on me, so if some strange things appear in the post, forums went wonky on me...)

Yokaiko, on 28 December 2014 - 11:04 PM, said:

Spoiler

Yeah one glaring thing there, the fact that Battlemechs are neary open ended and Omnimechs are:
1) heavily restricted
2) ergonomically difficult
3) way to hot.

......I also sat through every generation of band-aid .....I started just after the first mlas nerf, the one we are still sitting with.

The issue is pinpoint convergence, but I digress

The fact is that the clans are way WAY nerfed down.

So in building an Omni its a constant battle for stopping power, DPS means nothing if you are eating 70 points of damage the second you break cover.

Balanced? Meh its the same crap
mlas a problem? add heat
Guass a problem nerf it! (and it has velocity, crit damage, its USED to not be 100% explosion like ammo, the charge etc)
guass + PPC (oh noes)
Now its WAAAAAAAAA clans have to much range
..and (ironically) ER-PPC to stronk!

I agree though, I went back to IS mechs to try out the Crab, holy crap its a Direwale with a lower profile....with quad UACs its frigging glorious. Battle mechs are generally better with the exception of the Stormcrow and Timberwolf which are the two that have the pod space, and nothing rediculous hardwired (looking at you Warhawk heatsink torso).
PGI in both their implementation of band-**** (hi! ghost heat) and rigid adherence to stock mechs really shafted Warhawk. The disaster that is Gargoyle? 21.5 tons on an 85 tonner.....that is what you get AND its a ton and a half short of ferro.

Battlemechs are actually better once you get over the tasty loadout, I ran into that with Mad Dog is SHOULD be good, it should be godly.
.....man I hate that mech I couldn't even make myself clear all of the basics out.


Actually yes, we pointed it out that they may want to get all of the systems online before they turn us lose with the mechlab.

They weren't trying to hear that.

......which was three generations of changes before the game ever went "live"

You seem to forget the strength of the Omni and what balances out their locked portions. Omnis, unlike the normal battlemech, may change their hard point types and locations by changing omnipods. Why do people always mention the locked weaknesses of clan mechs, without also mentioning this amazing ability?

Technically, neither mech (in game) has full customization options. Each have their own restrictions. IS are restricted by hard point limitations. Clan mechs are restricted by locked engines and upgrade options as well as some locked equipment (and to a much lesser extent are still limited in hardpoints as well). However, later on I'll be going more in depth on omnis, how they are better (in lore), and other things about customizing mechs from lore in comparison to MW:O's current version of mech customizations...

I agree about pin point convergence, however we are stuck with it. There is a reason for this though. It was either have slowed convergence or create HSR to help prevent lag shield. Personally, though I had Pin point convergence, I'd rather be able to hit targets I'm seeing I'm hitting than have a more lore accurate targeting system. Sometimes, things have to change to overcome technical issues. The current convergence issue is one such item.

Ghost heat, once again as much as I hate it, does maintain a purpose and has served this purpose very well. It's not the most favored balancing mechanic, and could probably use more work (AC2s, I'm looking at you), however I have to admit that it has been doing a decent job at blocking some of the mega boat builds of old that were a relative problem. Now, Ghost heat doesn't solve everything, and it does still have some strange things about it, but it's serving it's purpose fairly well. (Personally, I'd rather have a random deconvergence when x number of weapons are shooting at the same time, which would reduce the pin point effect of many boats. However, we once more crash into lag shield and HSR issue. So, which do you choose? HSR and being able to (usually) hit things when you see them hit, or do you want to have to lead a variable distance ahead of your target (based upon your lag and your targets lag at any given time) to be able t hit? I'd still take HSR here.)

As far as the Hard wired gear on some omni mechs, that will come later with the explanation of Omni mechs in lore. And please, don't say this game should completely ignore all lore because "it's a game". It's a LORE based game, based on a universe (and other games) with a lot of intense lore attached to it. We ignore the lore completely, and we might as well be playing a non-Battletech mecha game...

PS: As far as PGI "Not listening to our comments/complaints" in closed/open beta, do recall a little factor called a backing agent (IGP), who has recently been kicked completely out of the picture. There were many things that happened because "IGP made it happen" and PGI didn't exactly have much choice in the matter. (Think, Gold mech sales... That was all IGP.) Have you not noticed the advances as of recent (such as more productivity and even CW's release) since IGP was removed from the picture?

Golden Vulf, on 28 December 2014 - 11:32 PM, said:

Quote

paraphrased: stuff on Sarna, though seemed to miss the part on the web page that actually said omnimechs could be customized.

Spoiler

When you customize an omnimech, you follow the same rules for construction.

Here are the rules for construction:

<a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Doneve/BattleMech_Construction_Steps#Step_1:_Design_the_Chassis" rel="nofollow external" title="External link">http://www.sarna.net...ign_the_Chassis</a>

The components only become hard locked after you have designed the new Base configuration.

Feel free to get a copy (I don't advocate torrent downloading, but you are your own captain) of Strategic Operations where the only penalty to customizing an omnimech is stated as lowering its "quality rating," and tells you that customizing an omnimech follows the rules for construction presented in Tech Manual. Tech manual has pretty much the same info on Sarna, perhaps a little more detail.

This is already in the game for Inner Sphere mechs.

An Atlas DDC that has had it's AC 20 replaced with 2 LBX 10s and refitted with endo steel structure and double heat sinks is not a standard DDC! It is a complete redesign that follows the same rules for mech construction that an Omnimech does, it just never gets any alternate configurations.

ps. The tabletop rule books are kind of crappy, there is no comprehensive set of rules, once you get going trying to figure something out, they tell you to find the rest of the rules in another book.

You need all these to really play and settle rules disputes at the table:

Total Warfare
Tactical Operations
Strategic Operations
Tech Manual (if you don't download Solaris Skunk Werks to do your work for you)
Total Chaos (not needed but highly recommended for the Chaos Campaign rules)

And you'll probably find yourself using optional rules and making some home rules.
In the game I run I use the floating crits rule from Tac ops, and I allow Ultra ACs to be unjammed the same way Rotary ACs can be unjammed (a whole turn of not firing any weapons and not moving faster than a walk).

For one point, you don't have to be rude to me. Example: They way you edited my quote there... And also, what "Paraphrasing"? I responded to your whole quote, and I copy/pasted the advantages and disadvantages section of Omnimechs from Sarna, with a link provided there as well so you could (and anyone else) view the entire article if desired...

Anyway...

I did not say you COULDN'T customize an Omnimech. However, once an Omnimech is customized (beyond it's Pod space, as in changing armor location, armor amounts, changing the engine, or other such locked and/or hardwired equipment, etc), it is no longer an Omnimech and becomes a standard Battlemech. (Without going back, I believe I did make mention of this?)

Your link says in it's link address "BattleMech Construction Steps". That is referring to creating a completely new chassis, as in a completely new mech. Not customizing a mech already in existence. These two sets follow different rules... Which may be what is confusing you.

PS: I actually have all the manuals in digital format, but will admit to not having read every book. However, this does not invalidate what I have to say either, as I don't see you quoting anything relevant as evidence so far...

Your Atlas DDC example is... incorrect. You are customizing a mech, not constructing a mech. These each follow different rule sets. However, I can not account for any home rules you may have created for (your friends and) your own use.

I'll address WHY clan Omnimechs can't change their locked equipment on your next quote...

Golden Vulf, on 29 December 2014 - 12:47 AM, said:

Spoiler

Well, the omnipods are not according to rules, but it is something we live with in the name of balance. Mech customization rules are accurate for Inner Sphere Battlemechs, but not for Clan Omnimechs.

It does not stop the top tier Omnimechs from being top tier, it keeps the 5th tier Omnimechs from becoming 3rd tier, is all I'm saying.

If they really wanted to be accurate, whenever you changed the loadout on your battlemech, you'd have to wait 2-3 days before you could use it. Omnimechs could change their loadouts and be ready instantly. I'm sure some players wouldn't find this funny at all.

Actually, no. Neither Omni nor Battlemechs are following a true customization rule options available in lore. However, PGI had to make some set rules on customization for the sake of balance in customization and easier gameplay. Here is where they are different:
- There are no "hardpoints". A battlemech (and an Omnimech) may actually remove and replace any or all of their weapons/gear for any other (or no other) items, crit slot and tonnage availability permitting. This means that a Blackjack, in lore, could technically replace their built in AC2s for Large Lasers if desired (or repalce those same weapons for 12 med lasers even). However, that leads to high costs, and the possibilities of things going wrong...
- Customizing a Standard Battlemech is expensive and very time consuming. It was rarely done in lore because of the high costs associated with the tasks, as well as the long down time for the customization, not even including the possible things that could go wrong (a misaligned laser that is less accurate, or ammo feeds that jam up unexpectedly). It also increased the standard maintenance cost of the mech, as you need more specialized parts to maintain and repair such a mech.
- Customizing any mech (including changing weapons around in an Omnimech) required the Gyro to be rebalanced. Standard Battlemechs would need to be completely readjusted to account for the new weight changes to the mech, a costly and time consuming thing. Here is where the Omnimech gets a bonus! The Omnimech was designed to have a gyro that could adjust to a given degree based upon what was loaded out onto the mech. If I recall right, the omnipods would send signals to the Gyro so it would auto-calibrate to the changes. This is WHY any fixed gear that was removed (such as even armor) would turn an Omnimech into a Battlemech. The Gyro would become out of sync, and would require to be tuned by hand, thus removing the entire advantage of quick omnipod changes, which could be done in hours by the way compared to the battlemechs days/months/years.
- Don't forget about the targeting computer while we are at it. An IS Targeting computer would have to be adjusted when a weapon was changed on it, to adjust for the new weapon and aid in aligning it properly. A Clan Omni's (once again) Targeting Computer would be programed to except gear inserted into it's available pod space. It would read what gear was there and accept it without any farther technical input.
- I'd like to also mention that your Gyro was connected to your Engine, and your gyro type, size and weight would change depending upon the size of your engine. A clan mech, with the Omni, if you change the engine you'd also have to change the Gyro. This removes the programed Gyro, and would then ruin the Omni, changing it into a Standard (harder to maintain and alter) battlemech.
- The Gyro, once more as it controls balance, would be effected poorly if you changed the structure or armor, as this changes the weight distribution, as well as the mech's overall balancing point. Thus... once more, you can't change those parts of an Omni without effecting the Gyro (and other gear), creating a standard Battlemech.
(I could go on...)


As far as you comment about "If they really wanted to be accurate, whenever you changed the loadout on your battlemech, you'd have to wait 2-3 days before you could use it", I think the poster quoted bellow has it worked out fairly well...

Lucian Nostra, on 29 December 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

You actually made me wonder how long per upgrade so I booted up Megamek.

Endosteel takes 615 hours to install at 8 hours per shift = 77 days
XL engine takes 120 hours to install = 15 days
Double heatsinks takes 288 hours to install = 36 days

128 total days to install.. hmm.. could you imagine? and that's not factoring in transit times.. you know almost a week to get a dropship to a jump ship... 7 days between jumps.. about another week to get it to the factory to to be refitted.. could easily be another few months just in transit.. than another few months coming back

Obviously, we can't have a customization taking anywhere near that long for a game. Thus, we have instant changes avalible. This does weaken the Omnimech customization, however it was balanced with omnimechs being able to customize hardpoints and Inner Sphere having locked Hardpoints. A decent compromise, if you asked me. (Admit it, if we all had no hard point limitations like how "lore" and "TT" says we would, things would get messy fast and balance would be completely impossible to achieve. Also, different chassis and variants would become just different skins and names and nothing more. Mech identity would become lost.)

Water Bear, on 29 December 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

Spoiler

This is called anecdotal evidence. If match data indicates that clan teams beat inner sphere teams at equal ELO, then it's fair to conclude that clan teams are stronger. Individual skills and successes don't really matter. My favorite example: If a chess master can beat an opponent by starting his game with only 5 pieces, that doesn't mean that starting a game of chess with only 5 pieces is a good idea.

Question: Where is your "match data" to prove your statement? And don't claim the results of CW on this one, cause the clans are often being stuffed on there. Look at what happened to poor Smoke Jaguar. They were stuffed right at Turtle Bay for a long time. On the flip side, Jade Falcon (with the Lords mind) ran rampant for a while through Steiner territory...

PGI is the one who would have this evidence. We can only speculate...

Alek Ituin, on 29 December 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

Spoiler

It also doesn't mean that winning a game with 5 pieces is impossible. It just means you need to be smarter, faster, and better than your opponent. Again, tactics win the day. Even a force of "inferior" vehicles can beat "superior" vehicles if the people commanding them aren't idiots.

I suppose you'd like to call the myriad military victories, experience of generals, tactical manuals, and books detailing the art of war (including Sun Tzu's Art of War) anecdotal evidence as well? Each one will stress the utmost importance of using the proper tactics in combat, which can allow you to win even the most lopsided battles.


But actually having a knowledge of strategies and tactics is to much to expect from the average MechWarrior I suppose...

Tactics, strategy, teamwork, personal skill and team skill meshing (how well a team's total skill set works together) are all key. Often times, it's how you use what you've got that matters, not always what you have.

I'll be honest here, I have a stock mech account where I play nothing but stock mechs on it. We all know how IS stock mechs are, right? Let me just say, if one uses them well, and you have skills that match the loadout, you can do very well even in a plain old stock mech with single (you guys heard me right) heat sinks. It's all in how you approach your targets.

People need to learn what they have, what that can do, and learn how to utilize it fully. They also need to learn what their enemies might have, how to mitigate their effectiveness, and how to approach them to maximize their own usefulness to the team.


(Corrected some minor problems and added spoilers as I originally intended to...)

Edited by Tesunie, 29 December 2014 - 07:33 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Tesunie

i think its just allot of animosity on both sides of this discussion,
sadly even with Math, people will always say that math is being warped one way or the other,
i think the only True way to get IS vs Clan Balance is to move the Time-Line up to 3060,

IS will get allot of weapons and equipment that will help balance them vs a stronger Clan,
LFE(which come out 3060-62, and act like Clan XL, but weigh only 75% of a STD)
ER-lasers(the missing ones Small and Medium with extended range)
X-Pulse-Lasers(IS-Pulse-lasers but with Clan-Like Pulse range)
PPC-Capacitor(adds PPC charge ability adding +5 damage if charged)
Light/Heavy- Gauss(Light having 8 damage at 10tons, heavy having 25 at 18tons)
IS AC Ultras/LB-X(for all types of IS AC weapons)
MRMs(a new missile type, like medium range SRMs but with more missiles)

wail Clan only get some light weapons based off some IS designs,
Heavy-Lasers(same damage as Clan-Pulse, but 1ton less and much less range)
ATM(new missile type, are heavier than C-LRMs but have 3 ammo types)

i feel with this Balance would be much simpler,
and would get us back to a place of good and stable balance,
as we would be balancing weapons against their counter parts,
instead of trying to balance C-ER-ML vs IS-ML, as that just wont work,


im not saying that moving up to 3060 is the right choice,
im saying i feel, its the right choice, others opinions may differ from mine,
so, "to each his/her own" i dont worry to much, thanks,

Edit- spelling,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 29 December 2014 - 07:55 PM.

[Tesunie]

@Andi

I'd have to agree, but at the same time I feel it may be a bad thing depending upon how everything "new" gets balanced and how it would all work.

As far as the LFE engine, I feel this would be a final nail in the STD engine coffin, where as the Std engine is currently a valid choice. I do also know that std engines would still have a place, especially for some mechs such as the Hunchback, or even the Atlas S. (Zombie mechs basically.)

I'd love me some Thunder LRMs personally. Set up a few mine fields... especially alone well known and traveled paths... But this would once more depend upon how they are implemented. Do recall that right now LBx ACs do not have the option to switch ammo types on the fly like they should be able to... It's a hard mechanic to apparently get into the game. Having the different missile types alone would be crazy to try and set up it seems...

I'd also like to mention, many people have waited for the epic Clan Invasion. That is the timeline many people are familiar with. PGI should follow through with the Invasion, as I feel if they didn't many people would become high disappointed in them.

What we REALLY need are more mechs. Always more MECHS!

I would like to leave this with, I think you have a good idea and concept, and you bring many valid points. Maybe after a year or two they could advance the timeline, but for now I think we should work on getting as many mechs from this timeline in before we jump to the next, with more different mechs... (Personally, I wished they had started with the succession wars timeline, gotten as many of those mechs into the game, and then went into clan invasion, with those mechs being added in.)
(I would also like to remind people of the age of this game. It's, what? 3 years old? Most games take about this long or longer to get to this same point. Just a reminder that things take time to do, and if it's worth doing well, it's worth taking the time to do it well.)

[Flaming oblivion]

You know until I learned to use clan lrms I would of agreed IS lrms are better.

Fact Is,

When you learn to use clan lurms they are superior more so at short range clrm 40 and 4 small lasers at close range I can devastate a dire wolf or king crab at close range in a smaller mech.

At long range it does become more debateable the instant dmg of lrms can be handy but I still prefer clans I find normal lrms have more weaknesses. And you really have to go full boat to pull off a IS lrm boat which leaves you virtually defenceless at short range by the time you have put enough ammo launchers arty tag bap etc. You need a xl, And your god damn hot.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Tesunie
if the Time-line where progressed than the STD would still have a place,
if for nothing else than the Heavy Guass, 18Tons 11slots 25Damage a shot,
it has to be torso mounted, no arm can carry it, even a KGC only has 10slots in its arms,
one of the main Carriers of the H-Gauss is the AS7, who has 12slots in each side torso,
LFE takes up 3 side torso slots so if you want Awsome-Gauss you have to take STD,
i think this also goes for AC20s, as they also cant be Mounted in a LFE mech,

as the time-line im still worried about balancing,
rebalancing, and rebalacing to make IS and Clan equal,
clan are supposed to be OP from 3050-55,
fi we balance then when IS gets their toys,
Clan will be way under powered,
then more rebalancing,

i know balancing is hard to do, and even harder to do well,
so thats why i feel advancing the time-line would very much help,
it would give more options, and help level the field for both sides,

i would rather they work on new content that would aid balance,
then try to balance and rebalance Apples against Oranges,

[Golden Vulf]

A customized omnimech only stops being an omnimech if you customize it in the field without the benefit of a dedicated work shop. In the Battletech tabletop game you would only attempt this in a campaign game where you were stuck in the field and you had a serious need to do so, such as ad hoc repairs using only what you had at hand, or a desperate need for a specific system.

OTHERWISE

Omnimech customization follows all the normal rules for Omnimech construction, including, choosing your structure, engine etcetera. And then, only after you have decided what your new base configuration will include, you lock the components. Then it is ready for a primary configuration loadout, and additional variants can be determined.

If you have the books, between all of them you can get the complete rules, since they are spread throughout.

In Mechwarrior online, we do not have 1 omnimech with 3 variants that we can switch between. We have 3 of each omnimech.

Edited by Golden Vulf, 29 December 2014 - 08:54 PM.

[Tesunie]

Andi Nagasia, on 29 December 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

LFE takes up 3 side torso slots



i would rather they work on new content that would aid balance,
then try to balance and rebalance Apples against Oranges,

You present very good points, but I find something sounds out of place. If the LFE has 3 side torso crit slots, then wouldn't that equal death by engine shut down upon a side torso destruction? It would (as far as my knowledge of the rules goes at least) have to be 2 crit slots in the side torso for LFE engines to survive, similar to clan XL engines.

For this game, you are correct about Std engine's still retaining some limited use after the LFE in the manner of fewer crits taken in the side torsos permitting large weapons there. (I'd just like to remind that some weapons could spill some crits into another component if they had to, such as the King Crab's AC20s having some crits in the side torso while also still having hand, lower and upper arm actuators. In MW:O, they removed the hand and lower actuator so the King Crab could fit it's default stock payload.)

I'd like to point out a possible problem with your train of thought (as much as I do like it). If you try to create balance by introducing new tech onto the scene, then a lot of the older tech tends to become "obsolete". Then you have tech that becomes useless that people want to still use (think Flamers and old school MG before their updates). You have to consider balance on all the available weapons. When this new tech comes out, they (PGI) will have to figure out how to add it in, in as balance a manner as possible without making any weapon system "worse". Thus, if anything, introducing newer tech (and remember, I'm not against your idea here, just mentioning this) may/will make balancing even more difficult.

It may be wiser to try and perfect balance between what we have now, and then add in new and more weapon systems. This way, we maintain a better sense of balance over the longer run.

[Tesunie]

Golden Vulf, on 29 December 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

A customized omnimech only stops being an omnimech if you customize it in the field without the benefit of a dedicated work shop. In the Battletech tabletop game you would only attempt this in a campaign game where you were stuck in the field and you had a serious need to do so, such as ad hoc repairs using only what you had at hand, or a desperate need for a specific system.

OTHERWISE

Omnimech customization follows all the normal rules for Omnimech construction, including, choosing your structure, engine etcetera. And then, only after you have decided what your new base configuration will include, you lock the components. Then it is ready for a primary configuration loadout, and additional variants can be determined.

If you have the books, between all of them you can get the complete rules, since they are spread throughout.

In Mechwarrior online, we do not have 1 omnimech with 3 variants that we can switch between. We have 3 of each omnimech.

You keep quoting mech CONSTRUCTION rules. You are not looking under mech CUSTUMIZATION rules. These two rules are different.

What you are trying to do is "I'm going to create the UberOmnimech (made up name). It's going to have x Prime configuration, x A config, and x B config." You are not trying to create a different variant of the Timberwolf (for example).

You can preform field changes with an Omnimech, such as replacing an CERLL for an CLRM10 system and 1.5 tons of ammo (4 tons of gear for 4 tons of gear). A Clan Omnimech can preform such a refit in a few hours, without changing it into a standard Battlemech. Where as a standard Battlemech would either have to wait a few months for such a change, or fight on with it's current weapons.

Please, read up customization rules, not mech construction rules.

Also: from Sarna.

Quote

The modular construction allows MechWarriors to customize their machine's weapon loadout to suit their own skills and preference, and suit specific tactical or environmental needs as required. Where a BattleMech of comparable weight is often designed and built for a specific role, an OmniMech can serve as a direct-fire combatant one day, and a missile boat the next.

Thus, you can make quick changes without penalty as long as it's a change of an omnipod.

Quote

OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components (its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech) are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech.

Thus, there are pieces that can't be change without "redesigning" the whole mech (think, sending it back to the drawing boards and testing grounds all over again and it being a prototype again). Your CONSTRUCTION rules is you completely redesigning the omnimech from the ground up. Not CUSTOMIZING the mech.

Quote

While customization of these (Hard Wired) components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms the OmniMech into a standard BattleMech.

What this says is, unless it is a module omnipod that is being changed (such as the structure to endo, rearranging the armor values, changing out the engine, removing the Adder's flamer, etc), it will turn the mech into a standard battlemech. This would remove all of the benefits of an omni mech completely, unless it is redesigned as a completely different omnimech, which takes a long time and is very costly...


As stated already, please refer to customization rules and not construction rules. One is used for creating a brand new line of mech (Omni or Battlemch). The other is used for changing a mech that is already built and being used/repaired/refitted. They each are drastically different. (And please, don't force me to quote from the rule books directly, as that would take far more time than this is worth.)

If you wish to continue to argue your point, it may be of some benefit to your argument if you linked sources and provided quotes of the relevant information.


(Edit: Altered a quote for better clarity.)

Edited by Tesunie, 29 December 2014 - 09:20 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

well on account of how much Space a LFE takes up in the side torso im not 100% sure,
it could very well be 2 in each side torso, i dont have all the answers and im fine admitting that,

i think split crits is how is was able to work when it came to the KGC but again im not 100% sure,
i do know how exactly it worked, but i know it wasnt common, maybe a special Quirk? again not sure,
see (KGC), its shown here as AC20 being (LT+LA) there are not that many Mechs ive seen with this,

again you do have a point, but im worried as people really shouldnt be comparing IS-ML to C-ER-ML,
as they are just too different to compare like that, C-ER-ML should only be compared to IS-ER-ML,
the problem is that IS doesnt get their IS-ER-ML until i think 3058, as is the problem,

i under stand that their will always be balance and changed done with it,
but if a C-ER-ML is balanced to a IS-ML, then what happens when IS get their ER-ML?

[Tesunie]

Andi Nagasia, on 29 December 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

i think split crits is how is was able to work when it came to the KGC but again im not 100% sure,
i do know how exactly it worked, but i know it wasnt common, maybe a special Quirk? again not sure,
see (KGC), its shown here as AC20 being (LT+LA) there are not that many Mechs ive seen with this,


i under stand that their will always be balance and changed done with it,
but if a C-ER-ML is balanced to a IS-ML, then what happens when IS get their ER-ML?

Weapons could split their criticals, such as the large AC20 and the Arrow IV (and the Long Tom). This was described as ammo feeds and the like being moved into a side component (side torso typically). It increased the weapons vulnerability of being crit/destroyed, as if it suffered a crit on either location, the weapon would be destroyed. I believe/heard (can not confirm this) that a split critical weapon would lock the arm's lower actuator when it was fired, but I am uncertain about this.


I do see and understand your point. I also agree that you can't compare the clan ERML with an IS ML completely. And, to answer your question, when the IS ERML comes out, it's balance should land it between CERML and the IS ML. Example:
IS ML deal 5 damage at 4 heat and at 270m range (for MW:O, and with a 0.9 second duration and 3 second cooldown being a total of 3.9 second recycle).
CERML deals 7 damage for 6 heat and at 405 range (for a 1.15 second duration and a 3 second cooldown, being a total of a 4.15 second recycle).
An IS ERML could deal 6 damage for 5 heat and at 350 range (for possible 1.05 seond duration, 3 second cooldown and a total of a 4.05 second recycle)?
It'd land in the middle, which is where it should land anyway.


We can adjust heat, beam duration and even cooldown timers to balance out the lasers. Making the clan lasers (which deal more damage overall) have longer durations (which means more skill needed to keep them on target for it's duration to gain benefit from them) is a reasonable balancing point. This leaves IS lasers as a go to for more burst damage, and clan lasers more skillful DPS weapons. (It's how you use it, not always what you have.)

There are lots of ways weapons can be balanced in MW:O, especially when compared to TT rule sets, where they had less elements (they didn't have duration and cooldown was always 10 seconds) to balance upon.

I, for one, feel that PGI is in the right direction with clan weapon balance at the moment. (Though I wont claim that anything is perfect though.)

[Alek Ituin]

I'm fairly certain that split-crit rules state that if, for instance, a weapon takes up slots in both the arm and torso, it acts as if mounted in the torso.

So essentially, whichever location between the two has the worst maximum rotation angles is the one that's used.