132 replies to this topic

[Okie135]

In Battletech, it has been my experience that salvage is the life's-blood of a Mercenary Unit. Contracts may pay some, but the cost to travel the stars is huge. Therefore salvage is the main way for a small time merc group to become a big time corporation. Anyone remember how the Grey Death Legion started with only a machinegun on the back of a hovercraft, and the intelligent use of a shoulder mounted inferno launcher?

So how do you think Salvage should be adressed in game. Do you think a person should have the option of taking the other guy's hard earned Dragon if he kills it and holds the battlefield long enough for a mech recovery vehicle to tow it back?

Personally I think this should happen with the following conditions.

1. There must be enough left of the vehicle to salvage.
2. The field is held long enough for a Mech Recovery Vehicle to retrieve the unit.
3. The costs of each part that needs replaced or repaired will need to be paid in full before the mech could be fielded.
4. There must be room on the dropship to take stuff home if you are leaving planet soon.
5. Salvage goes to whichever party holds the field. If you eject, but your team wins, your mech will be hauled back in for repairs.

I hated the mech jacking system in MechAssault. (You need 10 minutes to a day depending on your equipment and expertise with the security system.) However, battlefield salvage has always played a large part in the universe. Life is cheap, Mechs aren't.

Also hopefully this cuts down on the lone wolf with an Atlas running head first into multiple engagements. If he knows that loosing the field after he's taken out will mean driving a Flea, maybe he'll actually use some tactics and teamwork. I hate the idea that I could act stupid 10 games in a row with no real consequence. Being dispossessed should be a fear of every Mechwarrior.


So what do you think?

Edited by Clark, 23 November 2011 - 12:52 PM.

[HardDrive]

Clark, on 23 November 2011 - 12:52 PM, said:

Also hopefully this cuts down on the lone wolf with an Atlas running head first into multiple engagements. If he knows that loosing the field after he's taken out will mean driving a Flea, maybe he'll actually use some tactics and teamwork. I hate the idea that I could act stupid 10 games in a row with no real consequence. Being dispossessed should be a fear of every Mechwarrior.
So what do you think?

This made me laugh pretty good cause I agree with you completely the idea of being reduced from a Atlas to a flea was a hell of a good way to explain that. I have seen time and time again where some lone gun will run into a battle (in other games) where when they die they just come right back to do it again. I would defiantly be all for that not being a possibility. teamwork and tactics is what this game is suppose to be all about!

[DocBach]

I like most of your points except the mobile recovery vehicle - if you own the field we should just be able to assume that you had a team come out and pick salvage.

I like the idea that if you salvage a chassis, you get just the structure, and have to salvage other components like the correct rated fusion reactor, sensors, gyro, ect before the 'Mech can actually be fielded. Sort of like how Star Wars Galaxies handled starships - you had just a base ship chassis, and you had to provide all of your other components to get it to actually go.

[Catapult]

Very useful concept in both MechWarrior and MechCommander, i don't see why they wouldn't add it to the game.

[Okie135]

DocBach, on 23 November 2011 - 01:05 PM, said:

I like most of your points except the mobile recovery vehicle - if you own the field we should just be able to assume that you had a team come out and pick salvage.

Agreed. I doubt the game round will last the extra couple of hours it takes to get a salvage team out there. Mainly I just wanted to make the point that it couldn't be on a tie or losing game. That it had to be assumed that your force would be there long enough for your team to get out there and salvage.

[BlindProphet]

Clark, on 23 November 2011 - 12:52 PM, said:

In Battletech, it has been my experience that salvage is the life's-blood of a Mercenary Unit. Contracts may pay some, but the cost to travel the stars is huge. Therefore salvage is the main way for a small time merc group to become a big time corporation. Anyone remember how the Grey Death Legion started with only a machinegun on the back of a hovercraft, and the intelligent use of a shoulder mounted inferno launcher?

So how do you think Salvage should be adressed in game. Do you think a person should have the option of taking the other guy's hard earned Dragon if he kills it and holds the battlefield long enough for a mech recovery vehicle to tow it back?

Personally I think this should happen with the following conditions.

1. There must be enough left of the vehicle to salvage.
2. The field is held long enough for a Mech Recovery Vehicle to retrieve the unit.
3. The costs of each part that needs replaced or repaired will need to be paid in full before the mech could be fielded.
4. There must be room on the dropship to take stuff home if you are leaving planet soon.
5. Salvage goes to whichever party holds the field. If you eject, but your team wins, your mech will be hauled back in for repairs.

I hated the mech jacking system in MechAssault. (You need 10 minutes to a day depending on your equipment and expertise with the security system.) However, battlefield salvage has always played a large part in the universe. Life is cheap, Mechs aren't.

Also hopefully this cuts down on the lone wolf with an Atlas running head first into multiple engagements. If he knows that loosing the field after he's taken out will mean driving a Flea, maybe he'll actually use some tactics and teamwork. I hate the idea that I could act stupid 10 games in a row with no real consequence. Being dispossessed should be a fear of every Mechwarrior.


So what do you think?

Would be cool for merc company vs merc company battles....and be bad for any other type of battles end of story.

[TheRulesLawyer]

I don't know about going from an atlas to a flea. Buying mech would pretty much have to be a trivial process then if you wanted to make any progress.

I say something more along the lines of you always can get your stock mech chassis back after repair costs. If you're running a custom mech, you'll have to pay to have that work done again if you lose the mech. Weapons/equipment that got destroyed in battle would really be destroyed. Had a salvaged IS ER PPC? Too bad you'll have to buy another one if you can find it, or put the stock stuff back on.

Essentially you'd always be able to reset to stock varients for cheap, but custom and salvage parts would be a use until destroyed sort of thing.

[Okie135]

So pull a lesson from WoT and have your first mech be a default that you can fall back to? For instance if I choose a Wolfhound as my first mech and bought a Catapult later, and suppose my Catapult was shot out from under me, they could salvage the catapult and I could default back to my wolfhound until I saved up for a new mech again?

[CobraFive]

Clark, on 23 November 2011 - 01:59 PM, said:

So pull a lesson from WoT and have your first mech be a default that you can fall back to? For instance if I choose a Wolfhound as my first mech and bought a Catapult later, and suppose my Catapult was shot out from under me, they could salvage the catapult and I could default back to my wolfhound until I saved up for a new mech again?

Mechs would have to be so cheap that its trivial to buy a new one, which I don't think is a good idea. You're going to die. A lot. No matter how good you are. And you'll be stuck using the mechs you kill, or can kill, which is a huge penalty to scout-based guys. Plus in a game that basses itself around progression, and customization, losing the work you've put into a "character" can completly kill someone's drive to play further, and the idea that it can be taken away, and quite easily if your a light/medium, really puts a damper on wanting to invest too far into your play style.

Edit: And then throw into this paying real money? I'd never pay real money for a mech or weapon that could be taken away, ever.

I think salvage is a fine idea, but the other person doesn't necessarily need to lose something for you to gain something. Let's take Global Agenda, a F2P class-based, objective-oriented third-person shooter. In that, after each match that your team wins, you get one random piece of loot as a reward. The loot is specifically for the class you were playing at the time you won that match.

I think "salvage" simply being a reward you get is fine, or if you want to go even deeper, it can be based off of who you kill or what you accomplish in the match. But even that's not necessary.

Edited by cobrafive, 23 November 2011 - 02:08 PM.

[Xhaleon]

Eh, don't make mech destruction permanent, but weapon destruction very much so.

Mounting cheap weapons would be very favorable, but you'd have to give players some basic weapons that will never run out in case they get broke.

If Clantech isn't faction specific, then you can make Duncan Fisher's words very true; people who use Clan weapons will have to pay gobtons out the rear-end if their mech gets trashed. Omnimechs would just be plain super expensive then, like they're supposed to be. Would make money and financial advisors actually matter.

No idea how to handle that if respawning is a mechanic, but single life matches would work fine.

[Stormwolf]

Salvage is one of the most important aspects of Battletech, don't leave it out.

[Xanquil]

Salvage I suspect will be in the game in some way shape or form. But if thay are going to offer mechs for real money, loss of mech will not happen. It would be bad for business for for them to alow someone to "take your real money". (ie the mech you bought)

[Ran Ito]

I like the idea of salvage a lot. But not in the form presented in the poll. As it's been stated before, no matter how good you are you're going to die a lot. And what if it's due to lag or a disconnect?

I'm all for salvage as a reward. But it shouldn't cause a loss on the loosing side. Maybe full salvage/full loss could be offered as some sort of masochistic "hardcore" merc corp vs merc corp mode (like racing for pink slips). But for most game types maybe just a temporary lockout from the lost mech causing you to have to play another one for a while.

[Warbeast]

I Like the idea of having option of your stock mechs (maybe unlock new basic mechs as you advance up skill tree) which you can upgrade for c-bills and losing all up grades to a chassis if you're trashed and lose the match. salvage should only be available if match is white wash with all enemy units destroyed of fled the field.

Edited by Warbeast, 23 November 2011 - 04:23 PM.

[Sam Slade]

Bad idea; the by-product of this will be griefing. "See that guy, in the last battle he had 4 ER large lasers, he must go down 'casue I want them. Tie him up with Flamers and we'll take him out" is as weak as it'll get.

Co-ordinated pirate groups will be the end result of a PvP salvage system. Think outside thee BT universe people, and please make that poll a realistic one.

[Psydotek]

Perhaps salvage could be represented more abstractly by having a number of salvage points for the winning side. The points can then be traded for chassis/parts/c-bills (representative of the 'mechs involved) immediately after the battle. Then losing side gets no salvage points but will always get their 'mechs back in a damaged/disabled state.

As much as the tabletop rules appeal to me, losing the 'mech of your dreams that you worked so hard to get after a single battle (or even worse due to bad luck and/or crappy lancemates) would definitely not be fun and would turn me off from the game pretty fast. Again, finding the proper balance between fun and "realism" is important here.

[Spinoza]

Salvage should be optional... limited to special battles only.
For example, arranged clan matches fought for control of planets and facilties, so there's a cost to trying to take over someone's territory.

[EDMW CSN]

Sam Slade, on 23 November 2011 - 05:55 PM, said:

Bad idea; the by-product of this will be griefing. "See that guy, in the last battle he had 4 ER large lasers, he must go down 'casue I want them. Tie him up with Flamers and we'll take him out" is as weak as it'll get.

Co-ordinated pirate groups will be the end result of a PvP salvage system. Think outside thee BT universe people, and please make that poll a realistic one.

Hey that is happens in EVE. Which is a pay to play game.
People will target you and suicide gank you if they deem your ship is valuable enough.

I don't see people quitting in droves when they lost their first cap ship, or a pimp fit Faction BS or T3 strat cruiser or their entire fortunes inside a Freighter. Often the losses are measured in BILLIONS of ISK.


This is the name of the game. Head hunting has long existed in Btech, whether to put down the Commander on the field, the best equipped mech or take the best pilot off the field.

For example, a trinary (or was it binary, can't recall ??) of clanners were willing to focus fire on Morgan Kell (while Kell hounds picked them off piece meal) just to keep him off the field !

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 23 November 2011 - 10:19 PM.

[Okie135]

Sam Slade, on 23 November 2011 - 05:55 PM, said:

Bad idea; the by-product of this will be griefing. "See that guy, in the last battle he had 4 ER large lasers, he must go down 'casue I want them. Tie him up with Flamers and we'll take him out" is as weak as it'll get.

Co-ordinated pirate groups will be the end result of a PvP salvage system. Think outside thee BT universe people, and please make that poll a realistic one.

Pray do tell, how do I make this poll a 'realistic one'? I gave you an option for and against salvage. If you don't like salvage then vote against it. Mainly I wanted the discussion going on now. I like the idea of salvage but the points raised against it are interesting and worth while. I think Psydotek may be on to something here.

What if salvage didn't lead to a complete loss of stuff, but did offer salvage points. I think it would be interesting if you could salvage some of the opposing force, so maybe those points only work on snagging items used by the bad guys. That way if you fight clanners and win, you get to come home with something pretty.

Edit: I fully agree with CSN btw.

Interesting ideas from everyone so far...

Edited by Clark, 23 November 2011 - 08:44 PM.

[Helo Calister]

While i do think there should be salvage I don't feel it should be in the form of exchanging mechs. What if it was instead the C-bill equivalent of damage down split between the winning side or the winners select one item each from the losing side. The losers would keep their mechs (with extend of damage determining how long "repair" time/cost would be) and the winners would still come out of the battle with a nice new piece of hardware. Though sense we do not know how missions will be structured there might be "quest rewards" making salvage redundant.