132 replies to this topic

[Agasutin]

Thoughts on salvage...

Your charred remains are mine to keep, you lost your claim when you lost the battle...

[Riptor]

Theres so much elitism self patting and ego stroking in this topic it baffles my mind.

Drooling unwashed masses? Really haeso?

Also UO and L2 as examples? Both subscribtion based games, both games with PvE, both games OLD AS HECK and both games having ways to avoid being killed by other players?

How about you name a couple of current generation games that have permanent loss as core part of their gameplay please, oh and F2P games cause MWO is not going to be a Pay to play game.

You know the people that will bring in the cash are those "Drooling unwashed masses" and not the handfull of hardcore nerds.

Also your system would degenerate the Mechs, the heart piece of the game to throw away weapons.

Have you ever played world of tanks by any chance? If no i highly suggest you go and try it out... record how often your tank got destroyed.. and then come back and talk about perma loss of your ride. Cause it seems to me you have no idea how often even a "skilled" player will get shot down or one shotted by that lucky hit.

Especialy if you count in things like air strikes or artillery fire that might be undogable and completly out of your hand and im sure you also wouldnt find it very "fun"

Also you talk about "better" mechs...

Little news flash: There is no such thing as the "best" mech. You also cannot Tier mechs since we will have an "indepth" custimisation system, so any attempt at "Tiering" mechs will be utter nonsense.

How do you want to explain someone that a hunchback is tier 2 but a centurion is a tier 3 for example? Because the Centurion is more flexible in his stock loadout then the hunchback? But in close combat the hunchback would tear the centurion a new one with his AC/20. Mechs are highly situational weapon platforms.

Also foremost the price of a mech raises with Tonnage mostly and equipment secondly. Your system would lead to people only fielding lights and mediums cause no one would be able to afford heavys or assaults.

And if they can afford mechs by (and this is where i really dont understand you) "loosing their mechs" in the first place... whats the friggin point in your system? As i allready stated mechs dont get extremely more expensive in the same weightclass

If i can just rebuy my stuff after loosing it.. why loose it in the first place?

Edited by Riptor, 30 November 2011 - 05:21 AM.

[Haeso]

Riptor, on 30 November 2011 - 05:17 AM, said:

Theres so much elitism self patting and ego stroking in this topic it baffles my mind.

Drooling unwashed masses? Really haeso?

If you can't handle any sense of humor, I don't know what to tell you. It's an exaggeration meant to be just that, humorous. You'll notice I didn't reference anyone. Or even a group of people that belong to these forums.

Quote

Also UO and L2 as examples? Both subscribtion based games, both games with PvE, both games OLD AS HECK and both games having ways to avoid being killed by other players?

Both games, at their core, had consequence in death. Which was the point. There are many more games with consequences on death.

Quote

How about you name a couple of current generation games that have permanent loss as core part of their gameplay please, oh and F2P games cause MWO is not going to be a Pay to play game.

Pay to Play versus free to play doesn't dictate gameplay. It's a business model. The only impact it has on design is you specifically monetize certain things rather than the whole package. It's a far more flexible development model, actually. More capable than anything else. Companies are afraid of doing gigantic budget games as free to play because they're draconic. More and more games will be free to play as time progresses. It's more a user friendly and developer friendly business model.

Quote

You know the people that will bring in the cash are those "Drooling unwashed masses" and not the handfull of hardcore nerds.

Mine was meant to be humorous, I get the feeling yours here is meant to be spiteful. But it's the internet, I think I'll live. The people who 'bring in the cash' are the targeted users. Considering this game is a simulator, their target users are different than say, MechAssault.

Quote

Also your system would degenerate the Mechs, the heart piece of the game to throw away weapons.

I disagree strongly with this assertion, and even if that were the case, it'd certainly be better than some preposterous indestructo-skeleton that means they're always repairable and eventually everyone has everything. My proposed solution has every 'Mech be as valuable as something you're going to lose 40-60% of the time, maybe you can repair it because you ejected early and still won, maybe you win a few rounds with it or retreat it off the field. You can still have that cherished mech you try to never lose. You'll never have anything like that without loss, nothing will be important.

Quote

Have you ever played world of tanks by any chance? If no i highly suggest you go and try it out... record how often your tank got destroyed.. and then come back and talk about perma loss of your ride. Cause it seems to me you have no idea how often even a "skilled" player will get shot down or one shotted by that lucky hit.

I'm assuming around 40-60% losses out of both sides depending on objective/mission type. Perhaps slightly higher.

Quote

Especialy if you count in things like air strikes or artillery fire that might be undogable and completly out of your hand and im sure you also wouldnt find it very "fun"

"Undodgable" wouldn't be fun whether or not mech loss is permanent or you could respawn a bajillion times with the same 'Mech

Quote

Also you talk about "better" mechs...

Little news flash: There is no such thing as the "best" mech. You also cannot Tier mechs since we will have an "indepth" custimisation system, so any attempt at "Tiering" mechs will be utter nonsense.

How do you want to explain someone that a hunchback is tier 2 but a centurion is a tier 3 for example? Because the Centurion is more flexible in his stock loadout then the hunchback? But in close combat the hunchback would tear the centurion a new one with his AC/20. Mechs are highly situational weapon platforms.

Perhaps you've heard of Battle Value. Or this little game called Battletech.

To elaborate here, the point is that within the same weight class you can have vastly different prices, and if you want all roles to be available from the beginning, you could have the amount paid end-mission based on the weight class you came in with. Plus if they go with the route of having a standard but cheap light/medium/heavy/assault available from your house for free, you're all set.

Quote

Also foremost the price of a mech raises with Tonnage mostly and equipment secondly. Your system would lead to people only fielding lights and mediums cause no one would be able to afford heavys or assaults.

My proposed solution is nothing like this. I've explained it more in depth here: http://mwomercs.com/...-in-depth-look/

Quote

And if they can afford mechs by (and this is where i really dont understand you) "loosing their mechs" in the first place... whats the friggin point in your system? As i allready stated mechs dont get extremely more expensive in the same weightclass

If i can just rebuy my stuff after loosing it.. why loose it in the first place?

The first part, read my new thread I explain how to handle it in multiple ways, the second part: Because you don't automatically lose your stuff if you play smart.

You cannot create a zero sum or less than zero sum system. Nobody would suggest that, how would you get around it, you go broke then have to make a new character? It has to be potentially positive or negative.

Edited by Haeso, 30 November 2011 - 06:19 AM.

[Cattra Kell]

Riptor, on 30 November 2011 - 05:17 AM, said:

Theres so much elitism self patting and ego stroking in this topic it baffles my mind.

Drooling unwashed masses? Really haeso?

I agree with this, some of the ego boosting and ignoring of peoples comments and just sheer ignorance and refusal to read peoples posts astounds me in this thread. I have made on two different accounts a system that would work without losing full mechs but allowing them in need of repair.

Quote

Also UO and L2 as examples? Both subscribtion based games, both games with PvE, both games OLD AS HECK and both games having ways to avoid being killed by other players?

How about you name a couple of current generation games that have permanent loss as core part of their gameplay please, oh and F2P games cause MWO is not going to be a Pay to play game.

You asked for ANY space MMO and he provided but if you wish for more, mainly newer ones, then just those two lets go with Star Trek Online and Battlestar Galatica Online.

Quote

You know the people that will bring in the cash are those "Drooling unwashed masses" and not the handfull of hardcore nerds.

What? Have you even LOOKED at the State of the Sphere Analysis. A LARGE quantity of people said they would be willing to spend money just on cosmetic items, this includes the hardcore battletech fan base. I know I would be willing to drop 15$ - 30$ a month if the game is good.

Quote

Also your system would degenerate the Mechs, the heart piece of the game to throw away weapons.

Have you ever played world of tanks by any chance? If no i highly suggest you go and try it out... record how often your tank got destroyed.. and then come back and talk about perma loss of your ride. Cause it seems to me you have no idea how often even a "skilled" player will get shot down or one shotted by that lucky hit.

Actually I have played WoT and enjoy its system quite a bit, sure your constantly spending money on repairs and refit but in the Battletech universe it was the same thing! Mechs were constantly being repaired and constantly being fixed, I think this should reflect in the game. In my suggested system mechs were NEVER fully destroyed but rather crippled if damaged in the right away (such as FR breach) and you would have to pay to get it operational again, you never lost it but you may have to fallback on a default mech, or a secondary mech, until the repairs are finished.

With regards to the lucky hit, it seems your trying to say that if your pilot is "skilled", or grind to the highest and biggest available, he should never lose. I welcome the chance of losing to some guy who's playing for the first time due to, as you say, a "lucky hit", in fact that happened in MW:LL and MW4 ALL the time and that was part of the fun of it. I have no idea what you are trying to say here or what point you are trying to prove.

Quote

Especialy if you count in things like air strikes or artillery fire that might be undogable and completly out of your hand and im sure you also wouldnt find it very "fun"

Once more things like air strikes and artillery will definitely within the realm of player control seeing how there will be field commanders. If you are hanging out and camping on a hill, I don't see why not the enemy commander wouldn't hit it with arty before moving in under that cover, that's called smart playing.

Quote

Also you talk about "better" mechs...

Little news flash: There is no such thing as the "best" mech. You also cannot Tier mechs since we will have an "indepth" custimisation system, so any attempt at "Tiering" mechs will be utter nonsense.

Light, Medium, Heavy, Assault. Thats your tiers, your welcome.

Quote

How do you want to explain someone that a hunchback is tier 2 but a centurion is a tier 3 for example? Because the Centurion is more flexible in his stock loadout then the hunchback? But in close combat the hunchback would tear the centurion a new one with his AC/20. Mechs are highly situational weapon platforms.

Not sure once again how to talk about this, I think you make a good point here good sir. Mechs shouldn't be teir'd by tonnage but rather class, like I said, light, medium, heavy and assault, but just because of that I don't think that they would be better then the next, as said by the devs a light would possibly be able to take on an Assault. I think that the teir'd mechs would be by price and repair costs because a light mech would be cheaper to fix then an assault IMO.

Quote

Also foremost the price of a mech raises with Tonnage mostly and equipment secondly. Your system would lead to people only fielding lights and mediums cause no one would be able to afford heavys or assaults.

And if they can afford mechs by (and this is where i really dont understand you) "loosing their mechs" in the first place... whats the friggin point in your system? As i allready stated mechs dont get extremely more expensive in the same weightclass

If i can just rebuy my stuff after loosing it.. why loose it in the first place?

First of all; no, there are plenty of light mechs which cost more then a medium and even some heavies not because of the weight but because of the technology used inside of the mech and the weapons on it, the opposite of what you state. Take the Raven for example at a cost of almost 6 million, the Centurion is only 3.5 million and heavier and better armed with weapon by a long shot... but somehow it is cheaper.

People would be able to field heavies and assaults over time, which is a key thing. I think that sure a player could field them but would it be financially acceptable at the time considering the mission and who else you are fighting with? Take that second and think about what you are about to deploy. As for being able to lose a mech and still come out financially ahead, this IS very possible. If you are piloting a light mech on a contract for 5 million C-bills as a scout, your mission is to destroy X building. You die but your lance kills the building AND the opposing team. You now get 5 million, it may be 4 million to fix your mech... more like 2 million, but you still come ahead then when you went in. The system is in place to encourage team play and not lone wolves who run off and get their mech shot out from under them. If you perform your job and you get killed then there is the possibility that you still come out ok because you did your job. Is it a perfect system? No not really, is it still better then absolutely no risk ATLAS ALL DAY ERRY DAY mentality, for sure.

Now your final statement, why re-buy my stuff / fix it then why repair at all. The answer is consequence, I would pay for my mech to get back into fighting shape if it was damaged or I might scrap it for something else if its too costly. Its consequence and if you are willing to pay for it then go for it, and if you are willing to risk it then that is your problem while you seem to suggest is absolutely astounding, no consequence for rolling in an Atlas all the time and roflstomping on noobs who only have lights just because I have the biggest and baddest and hey are powerless because as you said earlier, no chance for critical hits or damage because the new pilot is unskilled. Yep, that won't turn away new players at all.

Edited by Cattra Kell, 30 November 2011 - 06:16 AM.

[MagnusEffect]

check this link out guys. pretty good conversation on this same topic... also a more in-depth poll.

http://mwomercs.com/...ge-and-repairs/

Edited by MagnusEffect, 30 November 2011 - 06:20 AM.

[GuntherK]

Anibody knows how World of Tanks reward sistem works ?

Damage done and objectives achieved are converted to credits and experienced earned.
In that game you can take hours, days or weeks to unlock a new tank chassis with in game earned experience and buy it with money earned in game.

When your vehicle is destroyed or damaged in battle you have to pay the repairs but still earn your rewards for what you achieved in the battle, it means you may get profit or lose money in a battle. You also have to pay the ammo spent.

You never loose your tank, you may sometimes run out of credits to repair it, or to buy ammo for it, but you never loose it...

That said, i love battletech since Grayson Death Carlyle pointed his inferno laucher at Lori's Locust, but...
in the moment i understand that a feature that allows for you to loose your beloved Hunchback permanently in a battle, is about to be implemented... is the moment in wich i will move away from the game and never look back.

But thats me, if you hardcore gamers want to risk all the time you invested in a mech to go flushed away in a random manner, i am ok with it, i will just go play another game.

I sugest that repair costs and ammo costs to be implemented. Repair times (your mech becaming unavailable for a certain amount of time) would be only a manner to direrenciate the free players from the ones with paid premium subscriptions, i dont think thats good either.

[Haeso]

How can it be your beloved hunchback if it is indestructable and automatically teleports back to your hanger? I'd rather keep a list of the 'Mechs that served me for numerous battles before I lost them, like in the table top how I'd keep a list of all the pilots who died that made notable contributions to the unit beforehand.

You'd almost always have a hunchback if you want it, and you could always look bad fondly on the one that kept you safe and gave it to the enemy good for as long as it lasted.


I just don't know how you can become attached to a 'Mech that cannot be lost, I want to remember the 'Mechs I've lost, not have zero attachment to 'Mechs with no personality or history.

I've still got lists of old 'Mechs and pilots who went above and beyond from my TT days. I can't imagine that being impressive if EVERY 'Mech lasted forever. That just seems so wrong..

Edited by Haeso, 30 November 2011 - 06:28 AM.

[GuntherK]

Then you have to make an Hunchback cheap as hell, and parts, or people would never survive long enough to save for them.
You are talking like a tabletop player that does long campaigns.
In a mmo like this, you may do dozens of battles in a single day. So you would probably loose a bunch of mechs per day... so how would you pay for them ?

[Haeso]

GuntherK, on 30 November 2011 - 06:38 AM, said:

Then you have to make an Hunchback cheap as hell, and parts, or people would never survive long enough to save for them.
You are talking like a tabletop player that does long campaigns.
In a mmo like this, you may do dozens of battles in a single day. So you would probably loose a bunch of mechs per day... so how would you pay for them ?

Kindly read the thread I made explaining or my previous posts in this thread, cheaper 'mechs would be relatively easy to obtain. Expensive 'Mechs would not.

There's also another possibility if people are so inclined. Make it far more expensive and take longer to purchase your own 'Mechs but that leaves people spending the majority of time in a 'Mech owned by their house in exchange for say, salvage rights.

[GuntherK]

One should not forget that this will use a free to play business model.
You are sugesting some interesting, yet complex and hardcore game sistem ideas.
For a free to play game to be comercialy viable it has to follow a more straightforward and simple progression model, something that can be understood by veterans and new players alike. I think that WoT achieved that with their unlocking for experience earned model.

The closest to wath you are sugesting that i saw beeing implemented in an mmo, is a pvp server wiyh permanent avatar death. Altough it may apeal to some hard core role players, it wouldnt work for most players.
That said i would run my Locust in such a server, but i would like to have a game experience in wich i could progress steadily with time, without risking beeing thrown back.

Remember, if this game doesnt earn money, it goes down, hardcore gamers alone wont keep the game viable.

[Haeso]

GuntherK, on 30 November 2011 - 07:01 AM, said:

One should not forget that this will use a free to play business model.
You are sugesting some interesting, yet complex and hardcore game sistem ideas.

I'm making the point that it isn't hardcore. At all. If you roll around in a standard or cheaper 'Mech for the weight class/role you're in, you will on average make enough money to keep doing so with the system I'm proposing. I'm not sure how to make this clearer. There's nothing hardcore about it. It's just an economy that keeps cycling through things rather than infinitely increases and gets to a point where everyone has everything. Your pilot would still level up, your account would still gain stats etc. Just after an individual 'Mech is destroyed or taken, you'll have to get a new ride.

'Mechs should NOT be part of the progression system. Otherwise you end up with as was mentioned ALL ATLAS ALL THE TIME!

Quote

For a free to play game to be comercialy viable it has to follow a more straightforward and simple progression model, something that can be understood by veterans and new players alike. I think that WoT achieved that with their unlocking for experience earned model.

It's quite simple my friend, whenever you lose a 'Mech, assuming it can be repaired and your side wins, you get it back. Whenever you lose a 'Mech and lose the match, you do not. When you win, salvage rights are evenly split. On average you earn enough to keep buying standard/cheap 'Mechs.

Nothing overly complex at all.

Quote

The closest to wath you are sugesting that i saw beeing implemented in an mmo, is a pvp server wiyh permanent avatar death. Altough it may apeal to some hard core role players, it wouldnt work for most players.

It's nothing like permanent avatar death, I am in fact against that unless they marginalize pilots/make ejecting viable etc.

Quote

Remember, if this game doesnt earn money, it goes down, hardcore gamers alone wont keep the game viable.

Several games would disagree with that notion, and further, I'm not advocating a hardcore system. This isn't zero sum or less than zero sum, it is either positive or negative based on your actions, but you always have a choice to go for positive.

[GuntherK]

I see your point Haeso.

Has i see it, you look at the game from a mechwarrior point of view, the important feature is the mechwarrior carreer. What he does and what he achieves.

For mee, its more about the mechs, how fun or how eficient are they to drive. If i had an Atlas and a Locust i would still drive the Locust, because its fun. So for me loosing it would be the same as if my avatar just died with the machine.

We just have diferent views, i understand your point, but for the kind of player i am, it would be painful to play the game. And i play games to have fun... and fix my battletech addiction

[Haeso]

GuntherK, on 30 November 2011 - 08:43 AM, said:

I see your point Haeso.

Has i see it, you look at the game from a mechwarrior point of view, the important feature is the mechwarrior carreer. What he does and what he achieves.

For mee, its more about the mechs, how fun or how eficient are they to drive. If i had an Atlas and a Locust i would still drive the Locust, because its fun. So for me loosing it would be the same as if my avatar just died with the machine.

We just have diferent views, i understand your point, but for the kind of player i am, it would be painful to play the game. And i play games to have fun... and fix my battletech addiction

I've got plenty of 'Mechs not just pilots that lasted a long time, they're right up there with the pilots. I still think if you give it a chance, and there's a replacement for it, it could be cool. Imagine stat tracking for your best 'Mech, not type of 'Mech, but an individual 'Mech and how long it lasted, where it fought, how many you killed with it. Maybe they could even let players ransom back Chassis if people really want to keep a specific 'Mech.

I'd love to have a little list of past and present 'Mechs and their achievements, how many battles they survived and how many enemies they've ground beneath their boots. Sure not every 'Mech would last long, some might not even make it out of their first battle! But the ones that do, the ones that last a dozen battles spanning multiple planets? Those are the ones you remember. Maybe after a certain point you just retire it rather than risk losing it! I remember a madcat whose cockpit I blew up using a Raven. I kept that Madcat as a trophy and made it a point to taunt the clanners about it constantly.

I understand where you're coming from, I just think people should give it a chance, it's daunting to lose something you work for like that, but once you get over the initial hurdle, you might really enjoy it. It gives each 'Mech character, and quite a lot of it. Maybe it isn't for everyone, but it should at least be given a chance.