I think salvage would be an awesome addition to the game.
That being said it wouldn't work...at least the way to OP wants it to work. Working towards a mech and then having it ripped away would ruin a prolonged experience, many people would up and quit if they went from an atlas to a flea(you wouldnt go from an atlas to a flea because the game isnt an arms race style progression), but still). Before you say 'but thats the point, if your a noob you lose your mech' just remember that its a team game and if your team loses you lose too.
Now if the game is going to have combat roles and a progression annnnnnnd a salvage system, this is how I could see it working.
-winning team gets salvage, winning teams repairs come out of salvage profits.
-salvage is accumulated at the end of a battle/operation/whatever from what is actually on the battlefield (knocked out players from both sides) and divided amongst winning team.
-you do not actually lose any equipment except weaponry and or systems like BAP or ECM or AMS depending on actual in game damage suffered.
-instead of losing your mech it is just damaged and you need to pay the repairs if you did not win.
-salvage gains you parts to create new mechs and weapons.
-salvaged parts are divided up amongst the winning team based on player role (medium mech players get priority on medium mech parts...ect...)
these are just a few things, I know that it takes away a lot of the consequences but it makes more sense to keep a wider player base.
3
Salvage
Started by Okie135, Nov 23 2011 12:52 PM
132 replies to this topic
#82
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- Ace Of Spades
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Posted 28 November 2011 - 06:30 AM
Hello Gent’s
I see that this thread has been picking up speed and I have monitored it for some time so I think that I should pipe up my voice and my opinion on the subject which is a system that involves loss, salvage and repairs after a match.
To begin let’s start with what I would like to see in the game:
I would like to see a system in which the consequence of you picking the biggest and meanest looking mech in the game, and then loosing results in financial loss. Forcing the player to play smart and not just deploying the Steiner Recon Lance every time. This should result in players falling back on Mediums and Heavies as your backbone of force, Lights as harassers and recon, and finally Assaults filling the role as mobile weapon platforms and specialists (the extra muscle when needed).
With Loss I think all assets should be “crippled” or “need of repair” and never fully destroyed and removed from your inventory, no. Rather I would like to see it have to sit in your inventory in need of repair forcing the player to either get the money to fix it, or fully salvage its parts and sell it and have to buy a new one. It should not get magically fixed but rather have the player pay the cost of repairs to get the mech back operational. If the mech gets magically repaired after a fight then what is the consequence of rushing the Steiner Recon Lance every game? The game will dissolve to who can field the most Assaults (also known as B.C.C, Big C*ck Contest.)
Second the parts that would be handed out after the match as salvage should never be a full mech, no. The Salvage should either be parts to sell for c-bills, weapon pods and systems, electronic warfare parts and perhaps armour plating. These items, I will touch a bit more on a few in my next section, should be something to reinforce your own mech and reduce (or “soft pad”) the costs of repairs if needed after the battle to replace or repair your losses.
With salvage I would like perhaps two systems depending on what mode you are playing. For random games (“pubs”) I would like to see a random salvage system, kind of like a loot system, which evenly divides the salvage amongst players. For conquest I think that there should be a Salvage pool where players in the Merc Corp have to communicate and divide the salvage amongst its group at the end of the match. This doesn’t have to be even, rather the leader could take all the salvage and **** off his lance mates who might turn on him resulting in a planet loss, or the group could decide that Jim deserves a bonus for taking out three mechs, or even that because Jim took out the three mechs while also having his Hunchback crippled on the field, he should get all the armour plate and the gyro recovered so that he can get that Hunchback operational quicker and at less of a cost. It would be strategic, it would have consequence for poor performance and planning and it would be fair in the Pubs while also adding depth to the planet conquest mode.
Finally for repairs, at the end of the match depending on how the mech you were piloting went down then that damage should transfer over to your mech after the game. What I would say is have a classification of how damaged your mech is, example: Operational (No problems), Minor Damaged (minor problem, such as arm damage, leg damage, etc.) just a simple repair or addition of armour plate, Medium Damage (2 problems or equivalent, damaged sensors, damaged internals, etc.), Heavy Damage (Missing arm, damaged leg, broken sensors / scanners.), and finally Crippled where the mech is un-field able now, this damage is the most expensive and would be if you have destroyed gyro or other very serious damages. As I said all these mechs in the statuses (except crippled) would be able to field but would just affect how efficient you are on the field resulting in a consequence for not maintaining your mech.
How will salvage play into this? Simple! As I said at the end of the match you get salvage, this includes plate armour, sensors, weapons, gyros and engines, etc. These items you could use to quicken repairs, replace losses (Replace the destroyed gyro with one you salvaged and now it’s back operational), and reinforce your armour plate from minor damage. The result of this would lower the cost of repairs since you no longer have to buy that item but rather have it on hand and just paying tech fees.
Its these three factors which I would like to see implemented into the game so that it would be not only balanced but fun to play while at the same time promoting consequences for poor actions and decisions and awarding good performances and decisions. I may post a modified post with how this would work later on after I polish it up and get it more refined.
I see that this thread has been picking up speed and I have monitored it for some time so I think that I should pipe up my voice and my opinion on the subject which is a system that involves loss, salvage and repairs after a match.
To begin let’s start with what I would like to see in the game:
I would like to see a system in which the consequence of you picking the biggest and meanest looking mech in the game, and then loosing results in financial loss. Forcing the player to play smart and not just deploying the Steiner Recon Lance every time. This should result in players falling back on Mediums and Heavies as your backbone of force, Lights as harassers and recon, and finally Assaults filling the role as mobile weapon platforms and specialists (the extra muscle when needed).
With Loss I think all assets should be “crippled” or “need of repair” and never fully destroyed and removed from your inventory, no. Rather I would like to see it have to sit in your inventory in need of repair forcing the player to either get the money to fix it, or fully salvage its parts and sell it and have to buy a new one. It should not get magically fixed but rather have the player pay the cost of repairs to get the mech back operational. If the mech gets magically repaired after a fight then what is the consequence of rushing the Steiner Recon Lance every game? The game will dissolve to who can field the most Assaults (also known as B.C.C, Big C*ck Contest.)
Second the parts that would be handed out after the match as salvage should never be a full mech, no. The Salvage should either be parts to sell for c-bills, weapon pods and systems, electronic warfare parts and perhaps armour plating. These items, I will touch a bit more on a few in my next section, should be something to reinforce your own mech and reduce (or “soft pad”) the costs of repairs if needed after the battle to replace or repair your losses.
With salvage I would like perhaps two systems depending on what mode you are playing. For random games (“pubs”) I would like to see a random salvage system, kind of like a loot system, which evenly divides the salvage amongst players. For conquest I think that there should be a Salvage pool where players in the Merc Corp have to communicate and divide the salvage amongst its group at the end of the match. This doesn’t have to be even, rather the leader could take all the salvage and **** off his lance mates who might turn on him resulting in a planet loss, or the group could decide that Jim deserves a bonus for taking out three mechs, or even that because Jim took out the three mechs while also having his Hunchback crippled on the field, he should get all the armour plate and the gyro recovered so that he can get that Hunchback operational quicker and at less of a cost. It would be strategic, it would have consequence for poor performance and planning and it would be fair in the Pubs while also adding depth to the planet conquest mode.
Finally for repairs, at the end of the match depending on how the mech you were piloting went down then that damage should transfer over to your mech after the game. What I would say is have a classification of how damaged your mech is, example: Operational (No problems), Minor Damaged (minor problem, such as arm damage, leg damage, etc.) just a simple repair or addition of armour plate, Medium Damage (2 problems or equivalent, damaged sensors, damaged internals, etc.), Heavy Damage (Missing arm, damaged leg, broken sensors / scanners.), and finally Crippled where the mech is un-field able now, this damage is the most expensive and would be if you have destroyed gyro or other very serious damages. As I said all these mechs in the statuses (except crippled) would be able to field but would just affect how efficient you are on the field resulting in a consequence for not maintaining your mech.
How will salvage play into this? Simple! As I said at the end of the match you get salvage, this includes plate armour, sensors, weapons, gyros and engines, etc. These items you could use to quicken repairs, replace losses (Replace the destroyed gyro with one you salvaged and now it’s back operational), and reinforce your armour plate from minor damage. The result of this would lower the cost of repairs since you no longer have to buy that item but rather have it on hand and just paying tech fees.
Its these three factors which I would like to see implemented into the game so that it would be not only balanced but fun to play while at the same time promoting consequences for poor actions and decisions and awarding good performances and decisions. I may post a modified post with how this would work later on after I polish it up and get it more refined.
Edited by Cattra Kell, 28 November 2011 - 06:32 AM.
#83
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- Knight Errant
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Posted 28 November 2011 - 12:58 PM
As I am reading all of these newer ideas...
Here's my current opinions (made simple)
You are able to have a warehouse full of personal mechs, I cannot see a player needing more than a dozen mechs, each designed to perform under different circumstances at the players leisure of course.
Salvage, - Parts, Points, and C'Bills (see a previous post on page 4 for details) All three have their own uses. You cannot acquire other players mechs, but you can acquire parts of the enemy units body, the cockpit, arms, legs, etc. (the player who lost would not have to "replace" their items, these would only be seen as "crippled or destroyed" items that you have to repair and the weapon(s) replaced.
Hardcore Mode becomes optional, you risk the mech that you have selected to be "permanantly" in this setting and you cannot trade anything that you acquire through hardcore. You can only sell them to the market, which will have its own set of hardcore parts for sale.
Hardcore mode of course it should be easiesr to acquire kills or be killed. Adding more firepower to all weapons only.. let's say 10% more firepower overall. (Don't take this next sentance to serious, just a thought) If this game is going to be about galactic dominaton may recieve more points and have a slightly bigger impact on how control would work. - Reason for this is due to the idea that no one will be playing hardcore as much unless they can afford to do so. Therefore there will not be as many matches and players will for the most part, stick to regular matches where they will not lose their mechs.
Once again the hanger idea, it is in a sence a force cap on all your assets. You can only have so much stuff before you cannot even walk around in your own hanger to bring out your toys, as stated above, I suggested you can acquire at least a dozen mechs for your personal use. Well one only needs about 100 spare weapons/armor as well and if they were to implement parts of mechs, you are looking around maybe.. 15-20 parts. Enough to build 2-3 mechs if you have the salvage points/C'Bills to do so (which is fairly cheap actually in comparison to buying a brand new mech)
Merc Company's - you are able to "donate" more of less everything that you have into the Company that you have either created or joined, however, you have to purchase all the features first. Such as larger hangers, surplus in storage space overall, contracts if that is implemented, a "vault" so to speak to increase the amount of donations the company can recieve, and so on. (maybe larger shuttles to haul up to two-three lances as well?)- This is a VERY expensive investment, but in doing so you have one bad*** Merc Company at your disposal.
I love the idea of a starter mech that you "cannot" edit. Depending on the House you may have to start with; they may give you a mech to start off as a means of keeping your loyalty for when you are able to purchase your own mech(s). - But I would only allow the option of editing a make, by selecting a type of mech through the house that you have chosen (of course this in itself would be spending alot of money, while also reselling your current mech to the house (auto) to reduce the price. So you could switch from let's say a Puma, (Davion) to an Uziel, (Davion) and pay the difference at the same time as trading in for a better mech.
I would suggest that this option only be available up to medium class mechs and only mechs that are available through the house of choice. To avoid exploiting and the non-consequencial Atlas charging in. (Keep in mind that this should also take up a slot in your personal hanger and that you cannot trade or sell these mechs except back to your own house and that it should be taken away once you leave the house that you joined.)
Here's my current opinions (made simple)
You are able to have a warehouse full of personal mechs, I cannot see a player needing more than a dozen mechs, each designed to perform under different circumstances at the players leisure of course.
Salvage, - Parts, Points, and C'Bills (see a previous post on page 4 for details) All three have their own uses. You cannot acquire other players mechs, but you can acquire parts of the enemy units body, the cockpit, arms, legs, etc. (the player who lost would not have to "replace" their items, these would only be seen as "crippled or destroyed" items that you have to repair and the weapon(s) replaced.
Hardcore Mode becomes optional, you risk the mech that you have selected to be "permanantly" in this setting and you cannot trade anything that you acquire through hardcore. You can only sell them to the market, which will have its own set of hardcore parts for sale.
Hardcore mode of course it should be easiesr to acquire kills or be killed. Adding more firepower to all weapons only.. let's say 10% more firepower overall. (Don't take this next sentance to serious, just a thought) If this game is going to be about galactic dominaton may recieve more points and have a slightly bigger impact on how control would work. - Reason for this is due to the idea that no one will be playing hardcore as much unless they can afford to do so. Therefore there will not be as many matches and players will for the most part, stick to regular matches where they will not lose their mechs.
Once again the hanger idea, it is in a sence a force cap on all your assets. You can only have so much stuff before you cannot even walk around in your own hanger to bring out your toys, as stated above, I suggested you can acquire at least a dozen mechs for your personal use. Well one only needs about 100 spare weapons/armor as well and if they were to implement parts of mechs, you are looking around maybe.. 15-20 parts. Enough to build 2-3 mechs if you have the salvage points/C'Bills to do so (which is fairly cheap actually in comparison to buying a brand new mech)
Merc Company's - you are able to "donate" more of less everything that you have into the Company that you have either created or joined, however, you have to purchase all the features first. Such as larger hangers, surplus in storage space overall, contracts if that is implemented, a "vault" so to speak to increase the amount of donations the company can recieve, and so on. (maybe larger shuttles to haul up to two-three lances as well?)- This is a VERY expensive investment, but in doing so you have one bad*** Merc Company at your disposal.
I love the idea of a starter mech that you "cannot" edit. Depending on the House you may have to start with; they may give you a mech to start off as a means of keeping your loyalty for when you are able to purchase your own mech(s). - But I would only allow the option of editing a make, by selecting a type of mech through the house that you have chosen (of course this in itself would be spending alot of money, while also reselling your current mech to the house (auto) to reduce the price. So you could switch from let's say a Puma, (Davion) to an Uziel, (Davion) and pay the difference at the same time as trading in for a better mech.
I would suggest that this option only be available up to medium class mechs and only mechs that are available through the house of choice. To avoid exploiting and the non-consequencial Atlas charging in. (Keep in mind that this should also take up a slot in your personal hanger and that you cannot trade or sell these mechs except back to your own house and that it should be taken away once you leave the house that you joined.)
Edited by Thrall, 28 November 2011 - 01:00 PM.
#84
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- Philanthropist
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Posted 28 November 2011 - 02:13 PM
salvage good. loosing your hard earned stuff, bad. we don't want this game to turn into an EvE online grief-fest.
but salvage must be in there somewhere, perhaps just for pve? i would never have had time for salvage in MW pvp anyway. it remains to be seen how large scale pvp campaigns will work out though.
i had to vote no in the poll, but because of the implementation not the idea.
but salvage must be in there somewhere, perhaps just for pve? i would never have had time for salvage in MW pvp anyway. it remains to be seen how large scale pvp campaigns will work out though.
i had to vote no in the poll, but because of the implementation not the idea.
#85
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- Ace Of Spades
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Posted 28 November 2011 - 03:33 PM
Ozric, on 28 November 2011 - 02:13 PM, said:
salvage good. loosing your hard earned stuff, bad. we don't want this game to turn into an EvE online grief-fest.
And why not? Saying that destruction of your mech, and I am not even talking about full destruction I am talking just needing to pay for repair, will lead to player-griefing is a bit of a long stretch. Sure FF will be on but other then FF how will players grief? By the Enemy killing you? Hardly griefing at all, rather it just means he killed you. I think that having your mech, depending on how it was destroyed, should have to go in for repair forcing you to pay for repairs. This will make you situation cautious due to the consequences of not being cautious.
Quote
but salvage must be in there somewhere, perhaps just for pve? i would never have had time for salvage in MW pvp anyway. it remains to be seen how large scale pvp campaigns will work out though.
i had to vote no in the poll, but because of the implementation not the idea.
i had to vote no in the poll, but because of the implementation not the idea.
As it stands we don't even know if PvE will be in the game, its something they said they wish to included at a later date. Salvage in my eyes is like I said above, grabbing weapons, gyros, armour plates, etc from a destroyed mech on the field to replace your own missing parts to soften the repair bill, not finding entire mechs in perfect condition. Also above I state that no mechs will ever be loss, just put in a state where they are in critical condition resulting in a loss of performance or cannot be fielded due to a destroyed gyro (replace the gyro and then off you go!). Once you get it fixed either with salvage or c-bills, then its fully operational.
Now how can you judge how a mech should be damaged is still in the air. Should it be a wear and tear where in X amount of losses results in X amount of damage on the mech, or should it be destroyed in the game = damage in that area out of the game and needs fixed. I for one do not even know myself since I am still working on my ideas.
The second half of your statement " i would never have had time for salvage in MW pvp anyway", I do not know what to make of this. If the system was implemented where the player gets X salvage parts for winning the battle at the end, like mechwarrior 4, then how will you not have time for this. At the end of the match the victor will get like "X armour plating, X AC 10 rounds, etc.", you hit OK and then look for the next match or repair your mech. Saying "I don't have time" is not a good argument when the average game will be 20 minutes, if you can sit at the computer for 1 hour, or 3 games, then you obviously have time to check your mech, check its weapons, check systems, etc. before a fight to see if everything is fine.
Implementation is not a problem, we have seen countless proposals now that include a risk of losing something in battle while also promoting salvage that is not over powered or a huge loss to players. All I am seeing are people crying over the fact that they might not be able to use their 100 ton Atlas assault lance every single game due to the fact that it might get hurt. If you do not have some sort of risk when it comes to using a type of mech, we will see the race for the 100 ton and then it will be nothing but Assault mechs everywhere.
#86
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- Philanthropist
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Posted 28 November 2011 - 06:42 PM
ok i'll bite. 
having reread your longer post i kind of agree with you, but your not really talking about salvage anymore (ie: having to hang around while a salvage truck comes and helps you out, or players literally being able to steal other peoples things), more about scoring and rewards similar to the MW4 campaign. it's a very nice idea, with one caveat.
consequences are important, no question, but if we assume that mechs will not respawn during a match then a single foolish death can mean the loss of your team. consequences enough? putting a price on this, at least in non-campaign mode, could have the unfortunate effect (ala EvE online) of putting you back. forcing you to redo something you have already done before you can do what your trying to do. this is not fun or a fulfilling experience, realistic though it may be. your proposition seems to suggest that very unlucky people may find themselves priced out of competitive pvp, and that a gang of rich players in blood asps could (in theory) farm new players in light mechs, preventing them from progressing and making themselves untouchable at the same time. forgive me if i misunderstood.
i understand your point about too many assault mechs, but hopefully the teams will be balanced somehow (ala classic BT?) so it won't be so much of a problem. even with your system in place, once some people got their assault mechs there would be an unbalance between them and everyone else, and they could keep it that way.
now salvage in planetary conquest mode is a totally different matter, where options for salvage based objectives and sustained attrition based warfare may all come in to play. but until we know more about game modes and personal progression its all just pillow talk really.
having reread your longer post i kind of agree with you, but your not really talking about salvage anymore (ie: having to hang around while a salvage truck comes and helps you out, or players literally being able to steal other peoples things), more about scoring and rewards similar to the MW4 campaign. it's a very nice idea, with one caveat.
consequences are important, no question, but if we assume that mechs will not respawn during a match then a single foolish death can mean the loss of your team. consequences enough? putting a price on this, at least in non-campaign mode, could have the unfortunate effect (ala EvE online) of putting you back. forcing you to redo something you have already done before you can do what your trying to do. this is not fun or a fulfilling experience, realistic though it may be. your proposition seems to suggest that very unlucky people may find themselves priced out of competitive pvp, and that a gang of rich players in blood asps could (in theory) farm new players in light mechs, preventing them from progressing and making themselves untouchable at the same time. forgive me if i misunderstood.
i understand your point about too many assault mechs, but hopefully the teams will be balanced somehow (ala classic BT?) so it won't be so much of a problem. even with your system in place, once some people got their assault mechs there would be an unbalance between them and everyone else, and they could keep it that way.
now salvage in planetary conquest mode is a totally different matter, where options for salvage based objectives and sustained attrition based warfare may all come in to play. but until we know more about game modes and personal progression its all just pillow talk really.
Edited by Ozric, 28 November 2011 - 06:44 PM.
#87
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- 14 posts
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- LocationThe Darkest Depths of Insanity™
Posted 28 November 2011 - 08:36 PM
Psydotek, on 23 November 2011 - 08:12 PM, said:
Perhaps salvage could be represented more abstractly by having a number of salvage points for the winning side. The points can then be traded for chassis/parts/c-bills (representative of the 'mechs involved) immediately after the battle. Then losing side gets no salvage points but will always get their 'mechs back in a damaged/disabled state.
As much as the tabletop rules appeal to me, losing the 'mech of your dreams that you worked so hard to get after a single battle (or even worse due to bad luck and/or crappy lancemates) would definitely not be fun and would turn me off from the game pretty fast. Again, finding the proper balance between fun and "realism" is important here.
As much as the tabletop rules appeal to me, losing the 'mech of your dreams that you worked so hard to get after a single battle (or even worse due to bad luck and/or crappy lancemates) would definitely not be fun and would turn me off from the game pretty fast. Again, finding the proper balance between fun and "realism" is important here.
I really like this idea.
#88
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Posted 28 November 2011 - 09:32 PM
Ozric, on 28 November 2011 - 02:13 PM, said:
salvage good. loosing your hard earned stuff, bad. we don't want this game to turn into an EvE online grief-fest.
What's wrong with EVE? If you think EvE is just a grief fest, you must have been really bad at it, or never played with a good corp / group of people. Sorry but you're just plain wrong on that point.
Ozric, on 28 November 2011 - 06:42 PM, said:
consequences are important, no question, but if we assume that mechs will not respawn during a match then a single foolish death can mean the loss of your team. consequences enough? putting a price on this, at least in non-campaign mode, could have the unfortunate effect (ala EvE online) of putting you back. forcing you to redo something you have already done before you can do what your trying to do. this is not fun or a fulfilling experience, realistic though it may be. your proposition seems to suggest that very unlucky people may find themselves priced out of competitive pvp, and that a gang of rich players in blood asps could (in theory) farm new players in light mechs, preventing them from progressing and making themselves untouchable at the same time. forgive me if i misunderstood.
Why is having to pay repair bills and losing a mech / a round a bad thing? You keep talking about loses as a negative and reference EvE Online. Did you put all your gear in a hauler and autopilot through lowsec or something, because I don't get your beef with the game. I'm sorry some people want a game to be more than a "push button get reward" and "everyone is a winner". Sometimes when you push the button you shouldn't be rewarded.That's what makes it interesting.
Hopefully mech balance and skill means you won't be able to just "farm" players who are actually trying to fight back. If you are so bad at the game that you consistantly fight against and find yourself against a group of people who outclass you in every way, and despite mech balancing between weight classes, you still lose every time and do not manage to get any points / salvage / kills whatsoever, then quite frankly you deserve to lose.
As others have mentioned, this can be mitigating by having a starter light, medium, heavy, and assault mech that cannot be edited or changed, that is slightly worse than what is otherwise available.
Ozric, on 28 November 2011 - 06:42 PM, said:
i understand your point about too many assault mechs, but hopefully the teams will be balanced somehow (ala classic BT?) so it won't be so much of a problem. even with your system in place, once some people got their assault mechs there would be an unbalance between them and everyone else, and they could keep it that way.
If you are so worried about a top heavy assault mech end game, then wouldn't some sort of loss / profit or salvage system be a great way to prevent that? If there is no gear loss / damage / requirement to repair, what incentive is there to not just horde the best mechs and use them every time? With a system like Cattra suggested, the few who have assault mechs would have to make a serious decision whether or not to use them.
~~~
I sorta like what you are getting at Thrall, but I'm not sure how a hardcore / vs. hardcore mode would work. Tweaks is right in that there is a problem of transferability. Perhaps use different servers? Who knows. I'm just skeptical about the idea of tiering / splitting the game like that.
#89
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- Knight Errant
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Posted 28 November 2011 - 09:55 PM
Belrick, on 28 November 2011 - 09:32 PM, said:
I sorta like what you are getting at Thrall, but I'm not sure how a hardcore / vs. hardcore mode would work. Tweaks is right in that there is a problem of transferability. Perhaps use different servers? Who knows. I'm just skeptical about the idea of tiering / splitting the game like that.
This entire time I have been under the assumption that the game will be using various and numberous of servers to accomidate any gamers passion(s), minus Conquest mode or even hardcore in Conquest as well, if it is set where only hardcore players can only find other hardcore players, while regulars can only find other regulars.
I just don't know what the devs are planning and I just have yet to locate any reference as to what the devs will be doing. I've only been going by what other players on here have been saying and realistically these ideas that i have posted or discussed is just one of the many solutions "if" the devs will be making it servers.
I wish I had an idea what the devs are doing so I can throw in my two cents where it would actually help (hopefully).
(Add-on)
To be blunt, the only reason I started talking about hardcore mode was only to present possibilities and flexibility.
I have little interest in having hardcore mode in the first place and I would personally prefer the small percentage chance that you "could" lose your mech, say 10% - you would have to lose roughly 10 games to have your mech taken from you. By then deserve no less for playing so damn horrible and would hopefully click in your head that whatever you have been doing was "never" working.
Chances of losing your mech under conditions
10% if you eject and lose the battle as well.
3% if you eject and you won the battle
6% if your mech is destroyed and is considered crippled - battle won.
8% that you will unable to repair a destroyed mech. - therefore a 100% chance you will lose your mech if this option occurs
10% if you are destroyed and lose the battle.
0% if you are not destroyed and the battles won
3%-6% if you flea from the battle and the battle is lost (varies based on how damaged you are and how many enemy units survived)
This is simply an idea of what i would want in the game and you would have a very hard time farming enemy mechs. (not to mention once again, you would have to be very unlucky or you would have to just suck that bad to lose your mech) this could be a decent solution to the salvage problem, provided there is more details involved.
The chances of losing weapons that are "destroyed" in combat you should not get back, the only way i'd see you getting any of your weapons back when destroyed is if it was your arm(s) destroyed instead of the weapons themselves and you have a chance to pick them back up in your salvage list after the battle. (55% chance to recover your limbs if you win, 5% chance if you lose but survive.)
Edited by Thrall, 28 November 2011 - 10:24 PM.
#90
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Member
Posted 28 November 2011 - 10:27 PM
I see alot of EVE comparison here.. even made some myselfe but all i can say over and over again is that EVE and MWO are not the same.
The fact alone that EVE is a Pay to play game and Mechwarrior is going to be a cash shop "hop in hop out" kinda game makes them apples and oranges.
EvE has a persistant world/universe, if someone attacks you you can call for help from your buddys.. you can try to escape, also there are (more or less) save zones... while mechwarrior has matches only that are suposed to last between 15 to 20 minutes, no way to escape and PuGs being a one way ticket to loose everything you have earned. No one would play random games anymore because of fear to loose everything.
Not to mention the whole cheating that would be going on... a paradise for 3rd party gold seller types. Gimme 10 euros/dollars and ill let you salvage my stuff! Yeah no....
And what if i permanently loose stuff i paid for with real cash? Think anyone would spend money on this game if the next random joe can just steal it from you?
Its a hop in hop out game like world of tanks.. and if that game is any indication as to what awaits us in terms of win/loss ratio then salvage with perma loss is a horrible horrible idea.
Also salvage would only lead to the stronger getting stronger and the weaker getting weaker. I dont want to play a Megamek esque game where one week after the start of a cycle you can allready tell wich players will be nearly unbeatable because they happen to gather the best mechs as fast as possible so each match against them is like leading your troops to the slaughterhouse.
An "Upper class master race vs. the low ranking mob" is not a healthy concept for a f2p game. You want everyone to be on the same level as much as possible.
Also theres the question how many hangar slots will you have... what economy system (if any) will be implemented.
Honestly... i do not believe piranha will take the risk of turning away possible customers with a perma loss, the market is stretched thin enough as is and the mecha genre was never a blockbuster triple A genre outside of japan.
Piranha allready has the odds stacked against them.. thats why no one wanted to publish MW5 since its a niche game with a low fanbase as is. No one can guarantee the comercial success of such a game hence the f2p system to get more people to play a mechwarrior game. But a perma loss system would just turn interested people away again.
Personaly i want to see MWO to turn into a huge comercial success and not be a random oddity and footnote amongst all the other f2p games.
The fact alone that EVE is a Pay to play game and Mechwarrior is going to be a cash shop "hop in hop out" kinda game makes them apples and oranges.
EvE has a persistant world/universe, if someone attacks you you can call for help from your buddys.. you can try to escape, also there are (more or less) save zones... while mechwarrior has matches only that are suposed to last between 15 to 20 minutes, no way to escape and PuGs being a one way ticket to loose everything you have earned. No one would play random games anymore because of fear to loose everything.
Not to mention the whole cheating that would be going on... a paradise for 3rd party gold seller types. Gimme 10 euros/dollars and ill let you salvage my stuff! Yeah no....
And what if i permanently loose stuff i paid for with real cash? Think anyone would spend money on this game if the next random joe can just steal it from you?
Its a hop in hop out game like world of tanks.. and if that game is any indication as to what awaits us in terms of win/loss ratio then salvage with perma loss is a horrible horrible idea.
Also salvage would only lead to the stronger getting stronger and the weaker getting weaker. I dont want to play a Megamek esque game where one week after the start of a cycle you can allready tell wich players will be nearly unbeatable because they happen to gather the best mechs as fast as possible so each match against them is like leading your troops to the slaughterhouse.
An "Upper class master race vs. the low ranking mob" is not a healthy concept for a f2p game. You want everyone to be on the same level as much as possible.
Also theres the question how many hangar slots will you have... what economy system (if any) will be implemented.
Honestly... i do not believe piranha will take the risk of turning away possible customers with a perma loss, the market is stretched thin enough as is and the mecha genre was never a blockbuster triple A genre outside of japan.
Piranha allready has the odds stacked against them.. thats why no one wanted to publish MW5 since its a niche game with a low fanbase as is. No one can guarantee the comercial success of such a game hence the f2p system to get more people to play a mechwarrior game. But a perma loss system would just turn interested people away again.
Personaly i want to see MWO to turn into a huge comercial success and not be a random oddity and footnote amongst all the other f2p games.
#91
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- Knight Errant
- 38 posts
Member
Posted 28 November 2011 - 10:44 PM
Riptor, on 28 November 2011 - 10:27 PM, said:
Personaly i want to see MWO to turn into a huge comercial success and not be a random oddity and footnote amongst all the other f2p games.
What would your suggestions be if you had a say in how the game is made? I would enjoy reading anything you posted on the subject.
Everything I read in your post is a bunch of negative feedback without any true detail. Only thing that was not negative was the hanger slot, and even then there was zero detail.
To give you an idea on solutions, please read my post that is just above yours as well as a few other recently made posts to gtive you some idea what may be a good idea.
I am also interested in your opinion on just how many slots there should be for mechs, salvaged parts, and so on, please read this quote from a previous post i have made for an idea as to what i am asking you to think about.
Thrall, on 28 November 2011 - 12:58 PM, said:
Here's my current opinions (made simple)
You are able to have a warehouse full of personal mechs, I cannot see a player needing more than a dozen mechs, each designed to perform under different circumstances at the players leisure of course.
Once again the hanger idea, it is in a sence a force cap on all your assets. You can only have so much stuff before you cannot even walk around in your own hanger to bring out your toys, as stated above, I suggested you can acquire at least a dozen mechs for your personal use. Well one only needs about 100 spare weapons/armor as well and if they were to implement parts of mechs, you are looking around maybe.. 15-20 parts. Enough to build 2-3 mechs if you have the salvage points/C'Bills to do so (which is fairly cheap actually in comparison to buying a brand new mech)
Merc Company's - you are able to "donate" more of less everything that you have into the Company that you have either created or joined, however, you have to purchase all the features first. Such as larger hangers, surplus in storage space overall, contracts if that is implemented, a "vault" so to speak to increase the amount of donations the company can recieve, and so on. (maybe larger shuttles to haul up to two-three lances as well?)- This is a VERY expensive investment, but in doing so you have one bad*** Merc Company at your disposal.
You are able to have a warehouse full of personal mechs, I cannot see a player needing more than a dozen mechs, each designed to perform under different circumstances at the players leisure of course.
Once again the hanger idea, it is in a sence a force cap on all your assets. You can only have so much stuff before you cannot even walk around in your own hanger to bring out your toys, as stated above, I suggested you can acquire at least a dozen mechs for your personal use. Well one only needs about 100 spare weapons/armor as well and if they were to implement parts of mechs, you are looking around maybe.. 15-20 parts. Enough to build 2-3 mechs if you have the salvage points/C'Bills to do so (which is fairly cheap actually in comparison to buying a brand new mech)
Merc Company's - you are able to "donate" more of less everything that you have into the Company that you have either created or joined, however, you have to purchase all the features first. Such as larger hangers, surplus in storage space overall, contracts if that is implemented, a "vault" so to speak to increase the amount of donations the company can recieve, and so on. (maybe larger shuttles to haul up to two-three lances as well?)- This is a VERY expensive investment, but in doing so you have one bad*** Merc Company at your disposal.
I am not mocking or trying to be a troll, I am honestly just asking what your opinions are on this as you did indirectly suggest that you do have some.
The real cash I only have one suggestion for you about that really. Is that you are unable to lose mechs that you have paid for, much like the idea that you cannot lose mechs that one of the houses who have given you a mech to start fighting with..
Edited by Thrall, 28 November 2011 - 10:46 PM.
#92
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- 255 posts
Member
Posted 28 November 2011 - 10:52 PM
the point that the "eve bashing" and I am not thinking its actually that its more different playstyle is trying to get at is that my experience is that in some ways the whole EVE experience is setup in some ways for maximum grief potentual without concequences. at least thats the feeling that some of the people who dislike eve feel.
part of the issue is in eve from the little I played it (14 day trial and gave up it just didn't "click" for me) is that there are "tiers of players" IE haves and have nots I guess you CAN get to the point that some of the really expensive stuff can be gained in a relatively short period of time 1 day/week of "grinding" for example but eve is all built around the concept that FRED can go up and gank Barney, and if he does it in the right way there is absolutely NO penalty for doing so except possibly getting a bad rep if Barney and/or his friends complain to other players but in a lot of wasys the community is built around the phylosophy of ... Sucks to be you.
battletech's universe is setup more along the lines of a western IE cowboys vs indians, allies vs axis etc etc, where depending on your actions there actually are ways you can really tick off your own faction for commiting "war crimes" and even enemy factions talk to each other. basically in theory there are are 6 major factions numerous minor factions etc but some of the factions ally with each other
house Davion fairly strong, military focused, depending on the era (~3039ish to 3057ish) most concerns us, is allied with house steiner, sort of a european/american sense to the house in many ways
house Kurita psudo japanese culture, loosely allies with marik, and laio
house Steiner in some ways is "germany in spaace!!" strong germanic history, strong merchant focus, historically not the best military
House Marik these guys are confusing typically they tend to have a whole bunch of competing sub factions kinda america in space in some ways but you could also argue there are aspects of the current/medeval europe there
House Laio, sorta china in space at least from an american pov, they also were saddled with a ruling family that has a high concentration of litterally Nuts leaders in the current/previous generation
anyway back on subject... if you look at the historical battletech their military especially the addition of mercs is very much on a shoestring budget, unless you are a big powerful merc unit that can "write your own ticket" salvage is litterally the difference between being able to keep your mechs running for another day/week or going bankrupt
if you go with that model the "best" units are likely to need you to grind for weeks or months to get it is definately NOT easy come easy go like can occur in eve
part of the issue is in eve from the little I played it (14 day trial and gave up it just didn't "click" for me) is that there are "tiers of players" IE haves and have nots I guess you CAN get to the point that some of the really expensive stuff can be gained in a relatively short period of time 1 day/week of "grinding" for example but eve is all built around the concept that FRED can go up and gank Barney, and if he does it in the right way there is absolutely NO penalty for doing so except possibly getting a bad rep if Barney and/or his friends complain to other players but in a lot of wasys the community is built around the phylosophy of ... Sucks to be you.
battletech's universe is setup more along the lines of a western IE cowboys vs indians, allies vs axis etc etc, where depending on your actions there actually are ways you can really tick off your own faction for commiting "war crimes" and even enemy factions talk to each other. basically in theory there are are 6 major factions numerous minor factions etc but some of the factions ally with each other
house Davion fairly strong, military focused, depending on the era (~3039ish to 3057ish) most concerns us, is allied with house steiner, sort of a european/american sense to the house in many ways
house Kurita psudo japanese culture, loosely allies with marik, and laio
house Steiner in some ways is "germany in spaace!!" strong germanic history, strong merchant focus, historically not the best military
House Marik these guys are confusing typically they tend to have a whole bunch of competing sub factions kinda america in space in some ways but you could also argue there are aspects of the current/medeval europe there
House Laio, sorta china in space at least from an american pov, they also were saddled with a ruling family that has a high concentration of litterally Nuts leaders in the current/previous generation
anyway back on subject... if you look at the historical battletech their military especially the addition of mercs is very much on a shoestring budget, unless you are a big powerful merc unit that can "write your own ticket" salvage is litterally the difference between being able to keep your mechs running for another day/week or going bankrupt
if you go with that model the "best" units are likely to need you to grind for weeks or months to get it is definately NOT easy come easy go like can occur in eve
#93
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- Knight Errant
- 38 posts
Member
Posted 28 November 2011 - 11:18 PM
The good part about salvage is exactly what guardiandashi had suggested.
Players who are on a losing streak may get lucky in a game where a bunch of powerhouses on both teams battle one another and you just happen to be part of the winning team. The salvage you collect when it is all split among players can grant you a small fortune and there for potentially bring you back into the competition.
I am all for salvage, you need risk of losing your belongings to keep you playing at your best. A bunch of Atlas’s and other assault mechs on the enemy team may be deadly, but if you can coordinate with your lance members, a few good shots to an Atlas’s dome will severely weaken the enemy forces. Having salvage and good teamwork/coordination makes it VERY hard for enemy forces to all run in with Assault mechs.
If your entire team has traded speed for firepower, then you will most likely lose the match. Especially if you have a bunch of enemy units all in medium/heavy mechs equipped with sniping/LRM capabilities. - Uziels, Puma's, Vultures, Madcats for examples. Even Fleas would have there uses, by shooting missile guidence beacons (Nerc or something? I cant remember what they are called.) You could easily have Vultures fire missiles without lock-on time to simply obliterate out an enemy mech.
The best concept I can think of is a pack of wolves working together to kill a much larger prey. By yourself you are an easy kill, but together with the pack.. you are a force to be reckoned with.
guardiandashi, on 28 November 2011 - 10:52 PM, said:
if you look at the historical battletech their military especially the addition of mercs is very much on a shoestring budget, unless you are a big powerful merc unit that can "write your own ticket" salvage is litterally the difference between being able to keep your mechs running for another day/week or going bankrupt
Players who are on a losing streak may get lucky in a game where a bunch of powerhouses on both teams battle one another and you just happen to be part of the winning team. The salvage you collect when it is all split among players can grant you a small fortune and there for potentially bring you back into the competition.
Riptor, on 28 November 2011 - 10:27 PM, said:
Also salvage would only lead to the stronger getting stronger and the weaker getting weaker. I dont want to play a Megamek esque game where one week after the start of a cycle you can allready tell wich players will be nearly unbeatable because they happen to gather the best mechs as fast as possible so each match against them is like leading your troops to the slaughterhouse.
An "Upper class master race vs. the low ranking mob" is not a healthy concept for a f2p game. You want everyone to be on the same level as much as possible.
An "Upper class master race vs. the low ranking mob" is not a healthy concept for a f2p game. You want everyone to be on the same level as much as possible.
I am all for salvage, you need risk of losing your belongings to keep you playing at your best. A bunch of Atlas’s and other assault mechs on the enemy team may be deadly, but if you can coordinate with your lance members, a few good shots to an Atlas’s dome will severely weaken the enemy forces. Having salvage and good teamwork/coordination makes it VERY hard for enemy forces to all run in with Assault mechs.
If your entire team has traded speed for firepower, then you will most likely lose the match. Especially if you have a bunch of enemy units all in medium/heavy mechs equipped with sniping/LRM capabilities. - Uziels, Puma's, Vultures, Madcats for examples. Even Fleas would have there uses, by shooting missile guidence beacons (Nerc or something? I cant remember what they are called.) You could easily have Vultures fire missiles without lock-on time to simply obliterate out an enemy mech.
The best concept I can think of is a pack of wolves working together to kill a much larger prey. By yourself you are an easy kill, but together with the pack.. you are a force to be reckoned with.
Edited by Thrall, 28 November 2011 - 11:20 PM.
#94
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- 2 posts
Rookie
Posted 29 November 2011 - 12:12 AM
If implemented right, salvage and gain/loss of equipment is in the best interest of the f2p model.
There should be two modes of play.
The first and most basic mode is always open to every player. That of a pilot who sells his skills as a pilot, but uses equipment provided for him by whoever is outfitting the 'mission'. These missions could be pvp or pve (it would be good to have pve so there is always something to do, even on low peak times). Each mission would have a base rate of 'salary' just for playing. Bonuses would be earned for completing objectives, finishing with an operational mech, how many opponents destroyed and salvage recovered (your 'outfitter' would keep the salvage, but give you a small percentage.) If the player dies, he loses nothing as the company outfitting him absorbs the loss.
This mode allows each player to play all classes of mechs with no capital, but there would be defined mission needs or tonnage limits.
The modest gains in this mode allow you to earn credits to buy your own mechs and equipment which can be used in the second mode, which is the ongoing battles over territory. When you front your own equipment, you stand to lose it, but you also stand to gain much more profit and can keep salvage.
If you lose out, you just have to spend more time farming up credits in the first mode to get back into the competitive second mode. You can also earn experience, unlock achievements, etc. for some benefit in the first mode. It all is a push to get players into the second mode, though, where your time and efforts get devoured in the machine of war. There will be real substantial benefits from holding territory and winning salvage, but it is tough to hold onto those benefits for the average player.
UNLESS!
You spend some actual cash to get percs, like 'mech insurance'. Of course this is a relatively cheap item, like all f2p games that draws people to spend a ton in microtransactions. $1 will purchase say 10 or 20 tokens of battle insurance.
Of course you could spend real money in a larger chunk to bypass all that annoying farming that all the f2p players do in the first mode and just buy an outfitted mech. This week only you can get a Bushwhacker for 20% off at just $1.60. Or go all out for the Atlas with a custom paint job to show you are a cash wielding customer for just $5. And as a bonus to purchasing your mech with real money we will throw in 'mech insurance' for 20 battles. For just $6 you can get a fully equipped Daishi bundled with extra weapons and gear for three different variants (close, mid, ranged), a $10 value if you purchase each part separately.
Of course the first time your average f2p player dies in the second mode, a popup announces how lucky he is to have one token of battle insurance and won't lose his gear this time, but next time he will. Click here to go to the online shop to purchase more!
For $2 you can get apet Jifty to follow you around and do minor repairs during a lull in the battle. During Christmas time you can purchase elves to do the same thing, for a comical seasonal twist.
How bout it?
There should be two modes of play.
The first and most basic mode is always open to every player. That of a pilot who sells his skills as a pilot, but uses equipment provided for him by whoever is outfitting the 'mission'. These missions could be pvp or pve (it would be good to have pve so there is always something to do, even on low peak times). Each mission would have a base rate of 'salary' just for playing. Bonuses would be earned for completing objectives, finishing with an operational mech, how many opponents destroyed and salvage recovered (your 'outfitter' would keep the salvage, but give you a small percentage.) If the player dies, he loses nothing as the company outfitting him absorbs the loss.
This mode allows each player to play all classes of mechs with no capital, but there would be defined mission needs or tonnage limits.
The modest gains in this mode allow you to earn credits to buy your own mechs and equipment which can be used in the second mode, which is the ongoing battles over territory. When you front your own equipment, you stand to lose it, but you also stand to gain much more profit and can keep salvage.
If you lose out, you just have to spend more time farming up credits in the first mode to get back into the competitive second mode. You can also earn experience, unlock achievements, etc. for some benefit in the first mode. It all is a push to get players into the second mode, though, where your time and efforts get devoured in the machine of war. There will be real substantial benefits from holding territory and winning salvage, but it is tough to hold onto those benefits for the average player.
UNLESS!
You spend some actual cash to get percs, like 'mech insurance'. Of course this is a relatively cheap item, like all f2p games that draws people to spend a ton in microtransactions. $1 will purchase say 10 or 20 tokens of battle insurance.
Of course you could spend real money in a larger chunk to bypass all that annoying farming that all the f2p players do in the first mode and just buy an outfitted mech. This week only you can get a Bushwhacker for 20% off at just $1.60. Or go all out for the Atlas with a custom paint job to show you are a cash wielding customer for just $5. And as a bonus to purchasing your mech with real money we will throw in 'mech insurance' for 20 battles. For just $6 you can get a fully equipped Daishi bundled with extra weapons and gear for three different variants (close, mid, ranged), a $10 value if you purchase each part separately.
Of course the first time your average f2p player dies in the second mode, a popup announces how lucky he is to have one token of battle insurance and won't lose his gear this time, but next time he will. Click here to go to the online shop to purchase more!
For $2 you can get a
How bout it?
Edited by Gnatstomper, 29 November 2011 - 12:15 AM.
#95
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- 646 posts
Member
Posted 29 November 2011 - 05:39 AM
If salvage isn't in a Mechwarrior game, that Mechwarrior game is missing something important.
Edited by Huntsman, 29 November 2011 - 05:39 AM.
#96
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- Legendary Founder
- 959 posts
Member
- LocationLaval, Quebec, Canada
Posted 29 November 2011 - 06:05 AM
Gnatstomper, on 29 November 2011 - 12:12 AM, said:
If implemented right, salvage and gain/loss of equipment is in the best interest of the f2p model.
There should be two modes of play.
The first and most basic mode is always open to every player. That of a pilot who sells his skills as a pilot, but uses equipment provided for him by whoever is outfitting the 'mission'. These missions could be pvp or pve (it would be good to have pve so there is always something to do, even on low peak times). Each mission would have a base rate of 'salary' just for playing. Bonuses would be earned for completing objectives, finishing with an operational mech, how many opponents destroyed and salvage recovered (your 'outfitter' would keep the salvage, but give you a small percentage.) If the player dies, he loses nothing as the company outfitting him absorbs the loss.
This mode allows each player to play all classes of mechs with no capital, but there would be defined mission needs or tonnage limits.
The modest gains in this mode allow you to earn credits to buy your own mechs and equipment which can be used in the second mode, which is the ongoing battles over territory. When you front your own equipment, you stand to lose it, but you also stand to gain much more profit and can keep salvage.
If you lose out, you just have to spend more time farming up credits in the first mode to get back into the competitive second mode. You can also earn experience, unlock achievements, etc. for some benefit in the first mode. It all is a push to get players into the second mode, though, where your time and efforts get devoured in the machine of war. There will be real substantial benefits from holding territory and winning salvage, but it is tough to hold onto those benefits for the average player.
UNLESS!
You spend some actual cash to get percs, like 'mech insurance'. Of course this is a relatively cheap item, like all f2p games that draws people to spend a ton in microtransactions. $1 will purchase say 10 or 20 tokens of battle insurance.
Of course you could spend real money in a larger chunk to bypass all that annoying farming that all the f2p players do in the first mode and just buy an outfitted mech. This week only you can get a Bushwhacker for 20% off at just $1.60. Or go all out for the Atlas with a custom paint job to show you are a cash wielding customer for just $5. And as a bonus to purchasing your mech with real money we will throw in 'mech insurance' for 20 battles. For just $6 you can get a fully equipped Daishi bundled with extra weapons and gear for three different variants (close, mid, ranged), a $10 value if you purchase each part separately.
Of course the first time your average f2p player dies in the second mode, a popup announces how lucky he is to have one token of battle insurance and won't lose his gear this time, but next time he will. Click here to go to the online shop to purchase more!
For $2 you can get apet Jifty to follow you around and do minor repairs during a lull in the battle. During Christmas time you can purchase elves to do the same thing, for a comical seasonal twist.
How bout it?
There should be two modes of play.
The first and most basic mode is always open to every player. That of a pilot who sells his skills as a pilot, but uses equipment provided for him by whoever is outfitting the 'mission'. These missions could be pvp or pve (it would be good to have pve so there is always something to do, even on low peak times). Each mission would have a base rate of 'salary' just for playing. Bonuses would be earned for completing objectives, finishing with an operational mech, how many opponents destroyed and salvage recovered (your 'outfitter' would keep the salvage, but give you a small percentage.) If the player dies, he loses nothing as the company outfitting him absorbs the loss.
This mode allows each player to play all classes of mechs with no capital, but there would be defined mission needs or tonnage limits.
The modest gains in this mode allow you to earn credits to buy your own mechs and equipment which can be used in the second mode, which is the ongoing battles over territory. When you front your own equipment, you stand to lose it, but you also stand to gain much more profit and can keep salvage.
If you lose out, you just have to spend more time farming up credits in the first mode to get back into the competitive second mode. You can also earn experience, unlock achievements, etc. for some benefit in the first mode. It all is a push to get players into the second mode, though, where your time and efforts get devoured in the machine of war. There will be real substantial benefits from holding territory and winning salvage, but it is tough to hold onto those benefits for the average player.
UNLESS!
You spend some actual cash to get percs, like 'mech insurance'. Of course this is a relatively cheap item, like all f2p games that draws people to spend a ton in microtransactions. $1 will purchase say 10 or 20 tokens of battle insurance.
Of course you could spend real money in a larger chunk to bypass all that annoying farming that all the f2p players do in the first mode and just buy an outfitted mech. This week only you can get a Bushwhacker for 20% off at just $1.60. Or go all out for the Atlas with a custom paint job to show you are a cash wielding customer for just $5. And as a bonus to purchasing your mech with real money we will throw in 'mech insurance' for 20 battles. For just $6 you can get a fully equipped Daishi bundled with extra weapons and gear for three different variants (close, mid, ranged), a $10 value if you purchase each part separately.
Of course the first time your average f2p player dies in the second mode, a popup announces how lucky he is to have one token of battle insurance and won't lose his gear this time, but next time he will. Click here to go to the online shop to purchase more!
For $2 you can get a
How bout it?
First, you may want to try to use more paragraphs and punctuations in your post, it was very hard to read.
Second, I think you expect prices to be much cheaper than they will be. I really doubt they will sell whole 'Mechs for just 6$... Expect it to be more like 50$+ like it is in World of Tanks. Otherwise, everybody will buy their way to victory way too easily.
Third, you assume there will be PvE, but the devs already stated there will not be such a mode (other than possibly training missions of some sort, and I doubt the AI will be very complex, more like target practice dummies).
Fourth, don't talk of 'Mech insurance... This is not EVE Online!
Huntsman, on 29 November 2011 - 05:39 AM, said:
If salvage isn't in a Mechwarrior game, that Mechwarrior game is missing something important.
It hasn't been in any previous Mechwarrior title, so I don't see why it would change much by not being in MWO either.
#97
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- Legendary Founder
- 91 posts
Member
Posted 29 November 2011 - 06:11 AM
Thrall, on 28 November 2011 - 09:55 PM, said:
This entire time I have been under the assumption that the game will be using various and numberous of servers to accomidate any gamers passion(s), minus Conquest mode or even hardcore in Conquest as well, if it is set where only hardcore players can only find other hardcore players, while regulars can only find other regulars.
You know, seeing the amount of complaining some people are doing at any sort of loss system whatsoever, you're starting to win me over on that assumption of different mode for hardcore players. I think you're probably right on that mark.
Before I respond to to other folks, I'd also like to say the way the ideas in this thread are developing (Salvage points / credits) seems to be pretty practical. It would kill a lot of complications yet still enforce some sort of risk / reward system.
Anyway...
~~~~~
guardiandashi, on 28 November 2011 - 10:52 PM, said:
the point that the "eve bashing" and I am not thinking its actually that its more different playstyle is trying to get at is that my experience is that in some ways the whole EVE experience is setup in some ways for maximum grief potentual without concequences. at least thats the feeling that some of the people who dislike eve feel.
If by maximum grief potential you mean a persistent world with a player made history with real consequences then yes, maximum grief potential. There are suicide gankers and pirates, but there are many more large alliances who fight over territory every day. That's not griefing whatsoever.
guardiandashi, on 28 November 2011 - 10:52 PM, said:
part of the issue is in eve from the little I played it (14 day trial and gave up it just didn't "click" for me) is that there are "tiers of players" IE haves and have nots I guess you CAN get to the point that some of the really expensive stuff can be gained in a relatively short period of time 1 day/week of "grinding" for example but eve is all built around the concept that FRED can go up and gank Barney, and if he does it in the right way there is absolutely NO penalty for doing so except possibly getting a bad rep if Barney and/or his friends complain to other players but in a lot of wasys the community is built around the phylosophy of ... Sucks to be you.
I'm glad you experience all Eve could offer in 14 days...
There are "tiers" of players, but its not as equipment based as you think. Right now the most popular gangs revolve around battlecruisers; fairly inexpensive ships that mix firepower, durability, and speed. You also need people to scout and tackle in any gang as well. I've been playing the game for many years now, and I'm still doing the same thing I did when I started: tackling. That's something any player can do from day one and it is necessary. So yes, there maybe are tiers of players, but the roles available for players to fill give something for everyone to do.
Let me just quote this again to emphasize this
guardiandashi, on 28 November 2011 - 10:52 PM, said:
but eve is all built around the concept that FRED can go up and gank Barney, and if he does it in the right way there is absolutely NO penalty for doing so except possibly getting a bad rep if Barney and/or his friends complain to other players but in a lot of wasys the community is built around the phylosophy of ... Sucks to be you.
So ambushing someone the right way (as in successfully) is a bad thing? Of course there are no consequences if he succeeds. That doesn't mean he didn't put a ship on the line. He could have lost or died. Ganking, even in large groups is harder than you think, because half the time its just bait.
There are lots of things to do, and consequences that FRED will suffer should he gank like this. He'll be labelled a pirate, Barney and his friends could go hunt him down, or maybe Concord will zap him as he passes through highsec.
You simply have no idea whatsoever on what you are talking about and it shows, badly. A 14 day free trial does not qualify you to resoundingly condemn the entire game experience. It shows even worse with other people in this thread who try to make EVE to MWO comparisons in ignorance. Stop doing this if you don't know what you are talking about.
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Anyway, yeah, we'll need a different game mode for these hordes of people who want to see no consequences whatsoever for their loses.
Here is a simple question to everyone out there of that opinion:
How do you suggest game balance in a world where no gear or equipment is lost in a F2P model? You say a salvage system with lose means everyone grinds to the best stuff. But the key is sometimes you lose that stuff.
Without that system, how does MWO balance out AND make money?
I think the answer is simple, and a bad one: They rent out weapons on mechs for real life money. pay 2 win.
A salvage system means players can actually lose whatever they worked for / bought, and don't have an incentive to use the biggest and the best every time.
The salvage system proposed now by many people on this thread means you don't even lose weapons directly to other players: you are just forced to pay steep repair bills while the winner gets a credit to fixing his own mech easier or making some money.
The systems proposed by others here are constructive and address multiple issues. Lets hear some actual constructive counter proposals from the other "side".
Gnatstomper, on 29 November 2011 - 12:12 AM, said:
If implemented right, salvage and gain/loss of equipment is in the best interest of the f2p model.
Yes. I hope it doesn't actually devolve into paying for mechs as you described, but that is my point.
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I'm going to have to stop responding to a lot of the folks on here before I get carpal tunnel.
Edited by Belrick, 29 November 2011 - 06:13 AM.
#98
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Posted 29 November 2011 - 06:13 AM
Hopefully this will be the game that breaks away from the previous molds of MW games.
Salvage, IMO, should be limited at first to the Conquest mode, tweaked and then if it makes sense, move it to Match/Pub.
I would probably limit salvage to items only, so weaps and add ons, but not the actual mechs.
Later on once it's tweaked and working well, they can look at full mech salvage (not sure how to mitigate the player loss though, maybe it's charged to the House/Merc corp, and that could be one way to rank them.
I'd like to see battles directly affect the prominence of the Houses, and then in turn, that affects the mechs/equipment they have to offer.
So your pub battles have a direct effect on the House.
Salvage, IMO, should be limited at first to the Conquest mode, tweaked and then if it makes sense, move it to Match/Pub.
I would probably limit salvage to items only, so weaps and add ons, but not the actual mechs.
Later on once it's tweaked and working well, they can look at full mech salvage (not sure how to mitigate the player loss though, maybe it's charged to the House/Merc corp, and that could be one way to rank them.
I'd like to see battles directly affect the prominence of the Houses, and then in turn, that affects the mechs/equipment they have to offer.
So your pub battles have a direct effect on the House.
#99
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Posted 29 November 2011 - 06:28 AM
Well right now this game seems to be a PVP death match concept which means that it will be more arcade-ish than like previous MW games.
If MWO designed single player missions or a gaming "world" with PvP, Player versus the AI, or a combination there of gaming arenas I can see salvage being a large part of what you have already mentioned. However the player would have a choice to enter in a combat zone knowing full well that they may lose their entire mech. You might not have too many interested players considering the parameters of the battle.
If it is the PVP game with mostly arena type play there’s no way to support a salvage system because the PvP game style would be so costly one could never keep up with the costs of combat.
I’d love to see massive missions where your play style determined how much salvage could be gained from a mission by placing smart shots, not destroying everything in sight and using tactics to best take advantage of the enemy.
If MWO designed single player missions or a gaming "world" with PvP, Player versus the AI, or a combination there of gaming arenas I can see salvage being a large part of what you have already mentioned. However the player would have a choice to enter in a combat zone knowing full well that they may lose their entire mech. You might not have too many interested players considering the parameters of the battle.
If it is the PVP game with mostly arena type play there’s no way to support a salvage system because the PvP game style would be so costly one could never keep up with the costs of combat.
I’d love to see massive missions where your play style determined how much salvage could be gained from a mission by placing smart shots, not destroying everything in sight and using tactics to best take advantage of the enemy.
Edited by Punisher_1, 29 November 2011 - 06:32 AM.
#100
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Posted 29 November 2011 - 07:15 AM
Punisher_1, on 29 November 2011 - 06:28 AM, said:
Well right now this game seems to be a PVP death match concept which means that it will be more arcade-ish than like previous MW games.
If MWO designed single player missions or a gaming "world" with PvP, Player versus the AI, or a combination there of gaming arenas I can see salvage being a large part of what you have already mentioned. However the player would have a choice to enter in a combat zone knowing full well that they may lose their entire mech. You might not have too many interested players considering the parameters of the battle.
If it is the PVP game with mostly arena type play there’s no way to support a salvage system because the PvP game style would be so costly one could never keep up with the costs of combat.
I’d love to see massive missions where your play style determined how much salvage could be gained from a mission by placing smart shots, not destroying everything in sight and using tactics to best take advantage of the enemy.
If MWO designed single player missions or a gaming "world" with PvP, Player versus the AI, or a combination there of gaming arenas I can see salvage being a large part of what you have already mentioned. However the player would have a choice to enter in a combat zone knowing full well that they may lose their entire mech. You might not have too many interested players considering the parameters of the battle.
If it is the PVP game with mostly arena type play there’s no way to support a salvage system because the PvP game style would be so costly one could never keep up with the costs of combat.
I’d love to see massive missions where your play style determined how much salvage could be gained from a mission by placing smart shots, not destroying everything in sight and using tactics to best take advantage of the enemy.
Why do you assume full salvage automatically means less than zero sum?
A: Each mission awards C-Bills, potentially actions in-match could as well like MW:LL.
B: Assuming decent matchmaking almost nobody should fall far below 50% win rate, thus losing little more than winning. At the very bottom of the spectrum you will have people so bad they can't level out, reverse as well, some so good they'll win far more than 50%.
A+B= Easily a potential for net gain. Lets assume it's like MW:LL because that's the best method for reasons that I'd be happy to discuss if anyone is interested.
First things first, when you start with permanent mech loss and salvage you have a zero sum system. For each mech gained, someone else loses a mech. Next step, mech/parts destruction, pretty simple. Some parts/mechs simply cannot be restored to working order and those that can be will requires money to do so. Next step, mission/performance reward. Not for quality of performance solely, doing anything useful rewards money from your contractors. Players that perform better will do more useful things and earn more, but anyone can earn this way. And of course mission end, this depends on how each mission is set up. Is it multi-objective? Lets say you managed to secure two of three holdings you were sent to capture, it might not be what they wanted, but it's still a 'win' assuming the context suggests you keep the areas/took everything of value before retreating. So most, even "Losses" should reward an end mission sum.
Between mission and performance rewards, you can easily make up the difference in what would be lost in the long run.
A separate option or in addition to this, for those that perform woefully for a long stretch, starter mechs that cannot be salvaged and/or cannot be sold, to preserve economy. These mechs would be akin to Second Line clan mechs in their purpose, more numerous, cheaper to upkeep and replace. Your house would provide these free of charge in exchange for your service, perhaps you forgo most/all of the mission reward but get your shot at salvage.
If it's poorly balanced and exploited by people only using starters, either weaken them further or make it so if you have a non-starter available/have a moderate amount of money (Enough to purchase several 'mechs) you pay a penalty fee to the house.
I could go on if I need to.
This logical fallacy of full salvage automatically means zero sum or even less than zero sum needs to stop. I see many people using it, not just you.
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