34 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

I had originally set my expectations somewhat low on this mech (I bought it only to get the King Crab... and I've yet to even basic out the Loyalty Crab...) and I figured it would have an OK shot of succeeding if I got enough tonnage to work with. 20 tons to work with on an 80 tonner is a difficult proposition. It makes me appreciate the Victor...

With that said, the mech has not really been quirked yet. Yes, it has quirks, but they are more of the unimaginative and uneventful type. I'll say here in advance that the mech needs to be more agile (how much more agility the Garg needs is another question) and certainly some additional heat reduction quirks. There are also "omnipods" in the pipeline, as I'll describe later, but ultimately the mech is "fixed" in one role... facetime incarnate with above average speed for Assaults.

To simplify this, I'll this break down into 3 sections for easy consumption:

1) The omnipods and you
2) How the mech plays
3) Omnipods on the way?


1)
It's not hard to break down the omnipods so I'll make this easy.

The Center Torso options are hardlocked, and for every added hardpoint, you lose 5 points of the torso twist bonus. For instance, the Gargoyle-A has no CT hardpoints, thus gets a bonus of +10 to the torso twisting radius. The Gargoyle-D has 2E CT hardpoints, thus gains no bonus. The Gargoyle-Prime is "in the middle", thus gets +5 torso twist radius. To stack them up..

Gargoyle-D = 90 degrees torso twist
Gargoyle-Prime = 95
Gargoyle-A = 100

The side torsos are uneventful as they add up to +10% torso twist (+5% torso twist per side torso)... with the exception of the AMS Left Torso of the Gargoyle-Prime, which give no bonus.

The focus of the omnipods are the arms... and unfortunately that does make it more vulnerable than it should be. The current hitboxes tend to get the Gargoyle cored, but the large arms do get taken off, so it isn't the most durable of mechs if you don't have a CT weapon (Gargoyle-A looks worse than it should because of it).

So, let's look at each arm...

Right Arm:
Gargoyle-Prime - 1B, 1M, +10% RA Armor Bonus
Gargoyle-A - 2E, +10% RA Armor Bonus
Gargoyle-D - 2E, +10% RA Armor Bonus

The options are uneventful. The Gargoyle-Prime has symmetrical omnipods for the arms, but considering the tonnage you have to work with, this isn't the best use of the tonnage. Still, you can make something of the ballistic hardpoint... but not so much of the missile hardpoint unless you combine it with a Gargoyle with a CT hardpoint (poor Gargoyle-A ). The energy hardpoints are OK, but remember that your need as much help you can get....


Left Arm:
Gargoyle-Prime - 1B, 1M, +10% LA Armor Bonus
Gargoyle-A - 4E
Gargoyle-D -2E, +10% LA Armor Bonus

Now, things are slightly more interesting. The Gargoyle-A hardpoint is essentially a mandatory hardpoint for most good builds and that means you need to shield with the right side to keep the majority of weapons intact.

The Gargoyle-D's Left Arm hardpoint is symmetrical, which can be useful but has limited application if you wish to "confuse" people in using your left arm/side as a shield and using the Right Arm for the primary ballistic. It works best when you combine it with the Gargoyle-D.

What does this all mean in terms of building? You ultimately won't have builds being that much better than a Stormcrow (you'll have more DHS than a comparable Stormcrow) and will still be inferior to any sort of Hellbringer equivalent payload (which you can stack ECM on top of). Don't even try to make a Timberwolf equivalent build.. you'll very likely be burned... due to the number of DHS you CANNOT fit on the mech comparatively speaking.

2)
I didn't think it was possible to be worse than an Atlas in terms of where you fire from, but now it is a reality. This really doesn't help when it comes to durability as that means you really have to show your face at all times when you shoot... but you're not an Atlas. However, you still have medium-level speed with "slightly better than heavy" quality armor. I mean, I guess you can say that for the Pretty Baby but that has a complete mess of hardpoints (I haven't seen many since the quirkening anyways).

Ultimately, you'd probably have to play it like a Stormcrow (which is obviously a solid mech), but treat it like an Atlas when you want to get into positions for a firefight.

In honor of the Wubshee (an amusing take on pulse lasers on a 95 ton mech), I present, the "Wubgoyle".

If I were to tell you that "6 Medium Pulse Lasers" is all you need, well, you can fit that in a Gargoyle and manage to do a better job than a Stormcrow... especially on the Gargoyle-A (full arm articulation). Sometimes, that is all you need. Instead of trying to snipe with it (it's not exactly a great idea given the large CT hitbox), just aim to brawl everything that gets in your way. The Gargoyle does't exactly draw the same kind of attention than the greater threats (like the Timberwolf), and with that speed you can certainly keep up with the pack. It can tank for a bit, but you're better off trying to hit and run if you aren't ready to engage.

If you plan on going the energy+ballistic route, you'll probably end up using at least 4 medium lasers to go with a ballistic on the arm. This is best utilized with the Gargoyle-D as you can distribute the weapons more evenly.

This is something to think about, but the 6 DHS 400XL engine is really nifty in that you'll very unlikely lose one of those in combat. Even while you may use a side torso, the CT will mitigate the loss of DHS effectiveness, so trying to keep uptime is important.

There's not many more roles that it can do... so I'll continue onto the a future major point... more omnipds...


3)
I know that there's a certain level of demand for more omnipods, but there are only a few that will matter... and yet it will be still irrelevant in the end. Let's go through ones that were researched the ones that exist in the data (not implemented, but could be in the near future).

Gargoyle-B Left Arm (2M)
Gargoyle-B Right Arm (1B)
Gargoyle-C Left Arm (1B)
Gargoyle-C Right Arm (6E)

The Gargoyle-B Left Arm allows for missiles to be relevant. It is difficult to put together a decent LRM or even limited SRM build w/o trying to combine it with some energy CT AND try to fit in a ballistic within that. Even then, it would look like a bad medium build (Nova would come to mind).

The 1B hardpoint from the Gargoyle-B Right Arm and Gargoyle-C Left Arm are likely to be ripe for extra quirks and would be superior to the Gargoyle-Prime's arms for that purpose alone. Oh well... I'm not sure how meaningful they would be.

The Gargoyle-C Right Arm is an enigma, but also a curse of the Nova-Prime. While this can extend the # of energy hardpoints to like 12 (2 from Gargoyle-D CT, 4 from Gargoyle-A LA), this is not exactly a blessing. Then again, I guess you could use it as the dominant arm and flip the shield side. Perhaps someone might use it, but it would have a niche role more than the Gargoyle-A's Left Arm happens to be...

Well, that's all there is... but I might as well put down a few suggestions to improve the Gargoyle using omnipods as an "easy for PGI to read and copy" kind of guide.

CT:
Gargoyle-Prime - add +5% turn speed
Gargoyle-A - add +10% turn speed
Gargoyle-D - no bonus

Turn speed would help for agility and limiting it to the CT would be OK (legs would get more complicated unlike the Kitfox-S).

All Side Torsos minus the Gargoyle-Prime LT: Add +10% torso twist
Gargoyle-Prime Left Torso: +5% torso twist

That should improve torso twisting, while not entirely cripple AMS torso (it's just a "bad non-bonus" at the moment).

LA:
Gargoyle-Prime - adjust left arm armor bonus to +20% (up from +10%), add ballistic cooldown -7.5%, add missile cooldown -10%
Gargoyle-A - add energy heat generation bonus -5%, add left arm armor bonus +10%
Gargoyle-D - add energy heat generation bonus -7.5%, adjust left arm armor bonus to +20% (up from +10%)

Despite having more DHS than a Stormcrow, it doesn't really have quite the uptime that it should. Also, the base arm bonuses are pretty weak (they amount to +5.2 armor which is like, "lol ok"). This should help within reason since the mech is arm dependent.

RA:
Gargoyle-Prime - adjust right arm armor bonus to +20% (up from 10%), add ballistic cooldown -7.5%, add missile cooldown -10%
Gargoyle-A - add energy heat generation bonus -7.5%, adjust right arm armor bonus to +20% (up from +10%)
Gargoyle-D - add energy heat generation bonus -7.5%, adjust right arm armor bonus to +20% (up from +10%)

Nothing exciting here, but cooldowns for the Gargoyle-Prime's arms would be useful on the whole.

For the omnipods that were found out... there are my suggestions...
Gargoyle-B RA - ballistic cooldown -7.5%, ballistic velocity +10%, right arm armor bonus +15%
Gargoyle-C LA - ballistic cooldown -7.5%, ballistic velocity +10%, left arm armor bonus +15%
Gargoyle-B LA - missile cooldown -5%
Gargoyle-C RA - -5% energy heat generation bonus

In any case... remember the Wubgoyle!

As an aside, the "proper" normalization of the pulse laser has helped with building mechs around them. Without it, the Wubgoyle would not exist. Let us hope that the pulse laser doesn't go back to the dark ages...

[Yokaiko]

You better wub its the only thing It can do.

21.5 tons of podspace.
Really?

I mean really.

[Deathlike]

Yokaiko, on 28 December 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

You better wub its the only thing It can do.

21.5 tons of podspace.
Really?

I mean really.

The actual number is 20. Not sure where you get the extra 1.5 tons w/o shaving more tonnage from the arms or legs.

[FupDup]

For starters, it should be counted as "Large" instead of "Huge" for hill climbing purposes...

Deathlike, on 28 December 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

The actual number is 20. Not sure where you get the extra 1.5 tons w/o shaving more tonnage from the arms or legs.

Sometimes people quote the TT pod space specs without remembering that MWO lets us add more armor to Omnis. I'm guessing that's the issue.

[Yokaiko]

FupDup, on 28 December 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

For starters, it should be counted as "Large" instead of "Huge" for hill climbing purposes...


Sometimes people quote the TT pod space specs without remembering that MWO lets us add more armor to Omnis. I'm guessing that's the issue.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d39bd45ff950a24

Yeah that is stock armor.


Whether or not MWO allows you to armor up or if you really want to is up to you. I can tell there are few of my mechs that are running flat out full armor all the way around.

[Navid A1]

This build has been good so far:
GAR-PRIME

[FupDup]

Yokaiko, on 28 December 2014 - 07:45 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d39bd45ff950a24

Yeah that is stock armor.


Whether or not MWO allows you to armor up or if you really want to is up to you. I can tell there are few of my mechs that are running flat out full armor all the way around.

Well, running literally 100% armor isn't usually practical because it leaves you with a weird decimal of unused tonnage (i.e. 0.3 or whatever), but running very close to max armor is recommended if not almost mandatory.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 28 December 2014 - 07:47 PM, said:

Well, running literally 100% armor isn't usually practical because it leaves you with a weird decimal of unused tonnage (i.e. 0.3 or whatever), but running very close to max armor is recommended if not almost mandatory.

When you're not running full armor on the Gargoyle, you might as well be saying...

"Look Ma Urbie, No Heart CT"

[Wintersdark]

Thanks for these posts, by the way. I appreciate the fair and unbiased approach looking to get the best you can out of the chassis without hyperbolic claims or axe grinding.

[Golden Vulf]

The Gargoyle A needs heavy ER PPC quirks. It can't even perform on the same level as the Thunderbolt, even though it is 15 tons heavier and faster.

[Bluttrunken]

If a mech doesn't have at least 3 viable loadouts i dont want to level it...

That's the case with the Gargoyle. I'm pretty sure, the Gargoyle will get a nice quirk pass. But even with a quirk pass... it might only serve as a passable energyboat(sans mined omnipods). The Quirk I'd like to see is... Less used Tonnage for Ballistic Weapons(*_*)? Not sure what to make out or do with the Gargoyle.

Meh, I'll maybe try this?
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=236&l=1fe04db94db650bb3ecb31bf2e4d4853399d5cad
or this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b505f170554fed3

The only thing which worked for me, so far, was a MPL-Build too. Didn't test much with it but honestly... I didn't want to either.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4b7e11084b86a59

Standard Structure but Ferro-Fibrous Armor? Really?

Edited by k05h3lk1n, 28 December 2014 - 10:58 PM.

[Summon3r]

3/3/3/3 does nothing to help the viability of the garg either in the pug ques, your letting your team down by filling an assault spot with one.... really looking forward to a potential quirk pass... actually the summoners quirks would be nice on it along with a large not huge architype

[kapusta11]

Why people whine so much about low pod space on clan mechs? Clan tech has much higher damage to ton ratio than that of IS, you don't NEED a lot of tonnage, all you need is enough energy hardpoints and sensible hitboxes. CERML is an IS LL that deals only 2 pts less damage but weight 5(!) times less and is not penalized by Ghost Heat. "Oh but it has Stormcrow level of firepower" guess what, Stormcow is a heavy mech in terms of firepower, show me an IS medium with the same focused firepower (obviusly SRM builds do not count), even Thunderwub deals 6 pts less damage, Timberwolf is assault, Gargoyle is indeed heavy, you could expect that since it's an 80 ton mech.

[Ultimax]

A+ for effort and useful info.


Unfortunately "Return of the Wub" begins, and ends, with IS mechs. Not clan.


FS9-A, FS9-S, TDR-5SS, BNC-3M being some of the top wub platforms, with Honorable mention to the WVR-6K.

kapusta11, on 28 December 2014 - 11:36 PM, said:

Why people whine so much about low pod space on clan mechs? Clan tech has much higher damage to ton ratio than that of IS, you don't NEED a lot of tonnage,

You do if you want to actually run something that isn't some variation of laser spam that basically every clan mech ends up playing in one form or another.

[Yokaiko]

Ultimatum X, on 29 December 2014 - 12:17 AM, said:

You do if you want to actually run something that isn't some variation of laser spam that basically every clan mech ends up playing in one form or another.

Which is generally hopeless.

UACs lack punch and only really work en masse, LB-X...yeah, anyone seriously ever use LB-Xs beyond lol builds?
SSRM slow slow slow, AND they scatter like mad so unless you are hitting a light with 6 SSRM 4+ they are generally less desirable than standard SRM
ER-PPCs? too hot, particularly if you have any other energy you are using, hit reg still sucks and the splash doesn't always work, so you are paying a LOT of heat.

......that leave laser vomit, strip off all of the crap max out the E hardpoints and fill in with heatsinks where you can. Done.

Drives me nuts.

Edited by Yokaiko, 29 December 2014 - 12:27 AM.

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 28 December 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

Thanks for these posts, by the way. I appreciate the fair and unbiased approach looking to get the best you can out of the chassis without hyperbolic claims or axe grinding.

Well, thanks.

The min-maxer in me doesn't care about meta in particular.. but rather looking into the most effective way of building a mech with what you got. This is why I don't generally complain about most of the "fixed things" like engines, because sometimes you can still do a lot (the Timberwolf is the overwhelming example of that).. then we look at things like the Mist Lynx and then scratch your head and wonder. It's not easy. Gotta make lemonade with lemons after all...

Success comes when the build is used properly.

k05h3lk1n, on 28 December 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

If a mech doesn't have at least 3 viable loadouts i dont want to level it...

I've got you covered... kinda.

Unfortunately, most of them are based off the better Stormcrow builds...

Classic Laser Build:
GAR-PRIME

Wubgoyle:
GAR-A


Gaussgoyle:
GAR-D

There's not much variation, but those are the basis of the solid builds I've come up with. It's not hard to come up with variations like one with a CUAC20 or CLBX20, but that's certainly up to you to make it work.

Ultimatum X, on 29 December 2014 - 12:17 AM, said:

A+ for effort and useful info.

Thanks.

Quote

Unfortunately "Return of the Wub" begins, and ends, with IS mechs. Not clan.

I'm fully aware IS wub is superior, but the Clan Wub isn't half bad. At least in the case of the Clan Medium Pulse... it being better than then Medium Laser (outside of tonnage) as slight as that is still kinda impressive.

Quote

FS9-A, FS9-S, TDR-5SS, BNC-3M being some of the top wub platforms, with Honorable mention to the WVR-6K.

Yes, full wub.

Quote

You do if you want to actually run something that isn't some variation of laser spam that basically every clan mech ends up playing in one form or another.

It's incredibly difficult. Had something like say the Stormcrow could properly build out what the stock Gargoyle-Prime's comes it, it would be impressive. On an 80 tonner, it is not.

Any actual attempts to run something as hot as a laservomit Timberwolf or even the Hellbringer is a painful endeavor since the platforms being compared to are superior in so many different ways. It's not a competition, so excelling over a Stormcrow is unfortunately the best goal it can reach (full wub arms is kinda handy).

The Gargoyle unfortunately has to excel in what Clan does well... energy.(and DHS). Quirkage is needed..

[Golden Vulf]

kapusta11, on 28 December 2014 - 11:36 PM, said:

Why people whine so much about low pod space on clan mechs? Clan tech has much higher damage to ton ratio than that of IS, you don't NEED a lot of tonnage, all you need is enough energy hardpoints and sensible hitboxes. CERML is an IS LL that deals only 2 pts less damage but weight 5(!) times less and is not penalized by Ghost Heat. "Oh but it has Stormcrow level of firepower" guess what, Stormcow is a heavy mech in terms of firepower, show me an IS medium with the same focused firepower (obviusly SRM builds do not count), even Thunderwub deals 6 pts less damage, Timberwolf is assault, Gargoyle is indeed heavy, you could expect that since it's an 80 ton mech.

It doesn't matter how weight efficient clan weapons are if you have limited hard points. And the higher damage clan enrgy weapons come with a significant weight penalty anyway, the extra heatsinks you need to install. Have you seen the Thunderbolt triple and quad ER PPC builds running around in cw? It is very effective at firing ER PPCs as if they had the heat and cooldown of medium lasers. It can do all that with a standard engine. They are pretty much the bane of clan light scouts that try to look over the wall.

The Gargoyle just needs a quirk to unlock endo steel. Then the Prime could take 4 more tons of ammo for the default loadout. The A could take enough heatsinks to keep running ER PPCs, though not as effective as those Inner Sphere devil mechs.

Edited by Golden Vulf, 29 December 2014 - 02:03 AM.

[Bluttrunken]

Ultimatum X, on 29 December 2014 - 12:17 AM, said:

FS9-A, FS9-S, TDR-5SS, BNC-3M being some of the top wub platforms, with Honorable mention to the WVR-6K.

Please check the range on clan and is pulse lasers while youre at it. Don't forget about TCs, too.

Ultimatum X, on 29 December 2014 - 12:17 AM, said:

You do if you want to actually run something that isn't some variation of laser spam that basically every clan mech ends up playing in one form or another.

Clans are by far not limited to laser spam.
a. Their ballistics fall short of IS in some regards, but that doesn't mean there are viable ballistic builds. As soon as you can get ACs on at least 2 Hardpoints the builds become interesting. I had good success with AC2 and LBX2 Hellbringer builds, e.g.. I saw Kitfox using UAC5s with good success(coupled with ERLLs.)

b. Clan Missiles are superior to IS in all forms, they can sport 3 tiers of streaks, and standard SRM and LRM builds are very viable for every clanmech on every loadout. Streak, SRM and LRM boats of clans are at least twice as deadly as comparable IS builds. Just compare a SRM boating Loup de guerre with a SRM or SSRM crow.

Edited by k05h3lk1n, 30 December 2014 - 08:46 PM.

[Sug]

The Wub never left us.

[Ultimax]

Yokaiko, on 29 December 2014 - 12:27 AM, said:

UACs lack punch and only really work en masse,

The problem with UACs, and using them on Clan Heavies or Gargoyles, is that for your tonnage investment you get a very low alpha potential build, that requires more face time than lasers to deal equivalent damage in the same bursts as a laser alpha.

On top of that, you have equivalent to worse spread mechanics, much shorter effective range due to projectile speeds and burst fire.


It works on the Dire Wolf due to the sheer number of them that can be boated, so the amount of damage you put out in a short space of time increases. It also works well for DWFs, because they are mechs that need to supress due to how poor their maneuverability is.

Deathlike, on 29 December 2014 - 12:49 AM, said:

I'm fully aware IS wub is superior, but the Clan Wub isn't half bad. At least in the case of the Clan Medium Pulse... it being better than then Medium Laser (outside of tonnage) as slight as that is still kinda impressive.

Agreed.
This is what I was running in that match where my team collapsed and the assault mechs couldn't find their ******* while a few rambos kept peeking alone and making bad trades vs. 3 to 5 of your guys.

Deathlike, on 29 December 2014 - 12:49 AM, said:

It's incredibly difficult. Had something like say the Stormcrow could properly build out what the stock Gargoyle-Prime's comes it, it would be impressive. On an 80 tonner, it is not.

It's difficult for almost all of them really, even the Timber Wolf.

Deathlike, on 29 December 2014 - 12:49 AM, said:

Any actual attempts to run something as hot as a laservomit Timberwolf or even the Hellbringer is a painful endeavor since the platforms being compared to are superior in so many different ways. It's not a competition, so excelling over a Stormcrow is unfortunately the best goal it can reach (full wub arms is kinda handy).

The Gargoyle unfortunately has to excel in what Clan does well... energy.(and DHS). Quirkage is needed..

My opinion is that the Gargoyle is actually worse than all of the Clan Heavies, and all of the other Clan Assaults, and also worse than the Stormcrow.

So yes, it needs quirks.