21 replies to this topic

[Cellinor]

I am light 10 pounds in my drop dec for CW and am thinking of upping to a higher tonnage Assault.

Between the two which is better and why:

Highlander
Banshee

Thanks

Edited by Cellinor, 29 December 2014 - 06:52 AM.

[AdultPuppetShow]

I would take a Banshee over a Highlander. It's just as fast with more firepower.

Edited by AdultPuppetShow, 28 December 2014 - 11:39 PM.

[Basskicker]

Ive been tinkering with the post quirk Banshee 3E and running 3ac5s 3 erll and cooldown module for the ac5s has been pretty effective. I havent used it in CW yet because Im going 2 heavies and 2 lights atm, but this build has been killing for me in the normal queue. Giant arms to shield your torsos and balanced on each side so if one torso goes you are still combat effective. Not to mention its weapons are pretty high mounted so you dont have to expose yourself completely to fire.

I havent played with the highlander in a long time so I really cant tell you to choose the banshee over it, but I do know its become a whole lot less popular then it used to be since the age of the poptarts has ended.

[Nightshade24]

Well the confussing title and main post is confussing

"Highlander or Battlemaster"
"Highlander or Banshee"

So I will talk about all 3 mechs.

First off I will give the main characteristics off each mech.

Battlemaster
-iconic.
-wide range off variants and builds.
-good for LRM boat, SRM boat, pulse boat, large laser boat, dakka boat, etc.
-can go very fast with a large XL.

Highlander
-lots of jumpjets and good height (for weight class)
-good mix of ballistic, missile, and energy across all variants besides 733P (just energy and missile)
-not that fast to some other mechs of same weapon configeration (Zues, Victor, etc)
-due to lots of meta attention in past, this mech doesn't have to good quirks... (yet)

Banshee
-lots of armour, only 95 ton mech in game
-2 of the 3 variants have good shield arms. (useless beyond having space for slots)
-Can do Xl engine pretty well for brawler builds, not that common for an IS assault mech
-Lots of energy hardpoints, 1 variant devoted to 100% energy, another to dakka and energy, one that is more off a mix and a arm energy weapon.
-can go fast for it's weight. This is as close to a kodiak you can go for an IS mech.
-can do non meta builds fine. (ie ppc boat, AC 2 boat, etc).



Which one you should get? Depends really. The Banshee is fun however out of these 3 mechs it can't hold the same range of builds.

Highlander can do a few LRM boat builds, a few SRM boats, or mixed. As well as good with a gauss, ppc, large lasers, and small energy weapons. It is lighter so it gives you more options in CW (well seeing you want a lighter drop deck, this isn't exactly a problem)

Banshee can hold heavy firepower and has good shield arms. I run all off mine with XL engines and never died thus far to a side torso. (besides that one time... friendly king crab alpha'd my right back)
My builds consist off one with Medium pulse lasers, an XL , lots of ammo and heatsinks and quad AC 2 with modules for AC 2. I love it and is the first mech where I can carry a team in a pug match as well as do good without kamikaze sacrafice tactics to get my pug team back on track.

My Highlanders are not very meta like, I got an LRM boat (AC 5, 2 med las, LRM 20, 10, 2x 5) which is quite successfull and dominates on alpine peaks. While the other 2 is a jumpjetting brawler with an AC 20 and a few mediums and SRM's. My last is a copy of the SLDF Highlander which basicly has gauss, med lasers x3, SRM 6 and LRM 20.

Even running practically a stock mech it's pretty fine. However I will not go into to much details about that as no one is insane like me to run a stock + mech these days like me.



Battlemaster I will not say much as I think you said it as a typo in the title. However it can do dedicated builds quite effectively. rather that be SRM, LRM, AC 2, AC 5, UAC 5, etc.

Depending on your other mecsh I would suggest that both off the banshee and highlander can fill a good slot for CW as a ranged mech or close range. however the highlander is a bit more ammo dependent.

[Appogee]

LL BLR works well.
Banshee 3E is also very effective.
Highlander is too slow.

[Tahribator]

The answer is Banshee. Banshee does everything the Battlemaster does and does them better. The Lowlander is in an ultra-nerfed position thanks to JJ changes.

[Nightshade24]

Tahribator, on 29 December 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

The answer is Banshee. Banshee does everything the Battlemaster does and does them better. The Lowlander is in an ultra-nerfed position thanks to JJ changes.

How many SRM's a Banshee can hold = 1.
How many a battlemaster can = 4
How many LRM's over the rating 10 can the banshee carry = 1
How many the battlemaster can = 4
How many gauss rifles a banshee can hold = 1
how many gauss rifles a battlemaster can hold = 1 ... with quirks
How fast is the banshee = 75 (speed tweak), 1 variant = 64.7 (speed tweak)
How fast is a battlemaster = 83.9 (speed tweak)


Just saying, But your statement off the banshee being better then the battlemaster in every way is a tad bit of a lie.

I also have to state that the Highlander also has advantages over the Banshee such as ballistic arm. The ability to run an AC 20 while having an XL engine. and having 1 jumpjet is still better then 0 and can get you over some terrain. (not to forget that PGI can buff jumpjets). Also the fact the highlander does missiles better then the banshee as well.

[Tahribator]

SRMs hardly matter on Assaults, they're just too slow to deliver them. Especially for CW where fights happen mostly outside SRM ranges (that's what OP is asking for).

What you're missing by just looking at the numbers is the hardpoint placement on the Battlemaster and the Highlander. Battlemaster's arm hardpoints are painfully low and they're unusable without exposing your whole 'Mech. That Gauss quirk is only good when your arm isn't blocked by something. You're only left with what you can do with those chest lasers and frankly, the Banshee does the lasers much better whether it's hardpoint placement or quirks. It's also too big for its tonnage (Awesome syndrome) and melts away under any kind of focused fire. That's why most of the Battlemasters out there are 1S LRM boats, they can only do well by removing themselves from the battlefield. Just like the ERLL Ravens with their fragile legs.

The Highlander has similar problems. Again, most of the hardpoints are in its arms which hang low. You used to be able to jumpjet to bring them to bear on the enemy, but now again you're forced to expose yourself fully. 325 engine cap makes you painfully slow, and limits the amount of internal heatsinks you can bring. Combined with the ridiculous Class I jumpjet heat, this thing runs really hot. I really wouldn't suggest using an XL AC20 assault that runs at 64.3 KPH maximum. The Victor does the whole arm AC20 thing better with 80+ KPH speeds. If PGI decides to unnerf Class I JJs (unlikely), this thing will be a monster of a brawler but until then it's just a bad Atlas.

I think OP has to decide if he wants LRMs or not. If he's a lurmboat type, he's better off with a BLR-1S. If he just wants a really good facesmasher in CW maps, then the Banshee is the 'Mech to buy. 3E with 3xAC5 is an absolute monster at all ranges and 3M is an awesome LPL boat at mid-range. If he absolutely must brawl with AC's, SRM's and ML's and he's confident that he has the skill to pull it off in a gimped assault, then the HGN might satisfy his fetish.

Edited by Tahribator, 29 December 2014 - 04:05 AM.

[Autobot9000]

I feel each of the three is doing a good job, none of it is a let down IMO. I don't feel jump jet heat is relevant. JJs put you in the position to decide when you pop up for a shot, if that's a split second later to wear off the extra heat hardly matters. Low hanging arms aren't an issue, when you can jump either.

Edited by Autobot9000, 29 December 2014 - 05:24 AM.

[Alienized]

ever seen a atlas ddc defending with a pure brawl build? dare to say *its all outside or srm range*. its not.
especially when you need wreckers to protect the omega-generators. thats the time for srm assaults.

[Tahribator]

Autobot9000, on 29 December 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

I feel each of the three is doing a good job, none of it is a let down IMO. I don't feel jump jet heat is relevant. JJs put you in the position to decide when you pop up for a shot, if that's a split second later to wear off the extra heat hardly matters. Low hanging arms aren't an issue, when you can jump either.

The thing is, it can't jump. You only get some boost 2-3 seconds into the JJ, which is too late. JJ heat is relevant in brawls, where you want to utilize your JJs to mitigate damage. You used to be able to use the "air time" to cooldown, but as long as you push the button you heat up right now. So you're forced to ignoring the JJ in brawls, which degrades the HGN into an essentially bad Atlas.

Aliisa White, on 29 December 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

ever seen a atlas ddc defending with a pure brawl build? dare to say *its all outside or srm range*. its not.
especially when you need wreckers to protect the omega-generators. thats the time for srm assaults.

SRM brawlers have their place either as battering rams or Omega defence, but otherwise they're not that useful. A BNC, especially a 3E can do that AND be useful at range.

Edited by Tahribator, 29 December 2014 - 06:05 AM.

[Autobot9000]

Tahribator, on 29 December 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

The thing is, it can't jump. You only get some boost 2-3 seconds into the JJ, which is too late. JJ heat is relevant in brawls, where you want to utilize your JJs to mitigate damage. You used to be able to use the "air time" to cooldown, but as long as you push the button you heat up right now. So you're forced to ignoring the JJ in brawls, which degrades the HGN into an essentially bad Atlas.

Well the thing is, the Banshee or Battlemaster don't even have JJs, so they simply lack the opportunity to utilize jump to spread incoming damage to their legs. Obviously the JJ capability is an opportunity. If you're going to use it and how is up to you. I see it this way: Even many brawl situations allow you to use JJs to your advantage and when it's not a brawl, but a pop up situation or simply moving from one place to another (taking shortcuts etc) it's good to ahve it. The Highlander can do this, the Banshee has some better ballistic builds, the Battlemaster some better Laser builds.

[Cellinor]

I am getting great information thanks all. So you have a handle on how I think/play let me give you some background...
When CW was heating up this summer I envisioned 1 of each class with my Assault being a DDC Brawler-build that does great for me. However the 240 weight limit has killed my vision. I can still do the DDC but that means either no Heavies and 2 Mediums, or 1 Heavy and 2 Lights (my preferred Light is my Jenner closely followed by the Firestarter).

So I abandoned the Atlas. While I have the Victor I have always preferred the Stalker, which at 85 pounds gives me great flexibility in choosing a Heavy. My best Stalker has been the 3F(C) that sports 4x LRM15-Artemis. The 3F racks up damage and kills in non-CW matches but I have found LRM boating less optimal in CW. My other Stalker I like is the Misery. I do a Laser focus with PPCS and LPLs. The Misery is great at blowing off components but runs exceptionally hot.

After playing CW now in Beta I have come away with the following opinions/impressions; yvmv:
1) At least 1 long range mech is a very good idea if not a must. If you are assaulting a lot then 2 long range mechs are probably best.
2) I love my Jenner and he is great on both offense and defense however I don't see the need for 2 lights.
3) At least 1 Brawler is excellent for Defense. Currently I use 1 up close brawler (Yen-lo with AC20 mods) and a AC10/LBX 10 (depends on my mood) Heavy
4) Limit your slow mechs; by this I mean be very specific with your slowpoke

My currently drop dec looks like this:
Jenner F(C) 35 kg- 6 mls with max engine and appropriate mods means he is a solid to great performer
Yen-lo 50 kg - He is just fast enough to assault with and he excels on defense. While I don't top the damage chart with him, I usually gets off enough rounds to do the job.
Dragon 1C 60 kg - Personally I do well with the Dragon chassis. While the 1C may seem odd choice its mix of speed and Yaw make him an effective mid-range support mech.
Stalker 3F(C) 85 kg - my ranged mech (see above)

The Medium & Heavy chassis I have a lot of flexibility with as these are my preferred weight classes.

With my Heavies, I was initially swapping between the K2 and the Jester. Both the Jester & K2 have good speed and range. The problem I ran into was the fact I run my Catapult chassis with XL engines. This made them too fragile for CW especially on the assault (more on the XL in a minute). I am going to run my Cataphract 3D(C) (ranged mech) through some matches & see how he does but he is a slower mech. I also plan on trying out my Firebrand (ranged mech) but again he has an XL.

My Medium has always been the Yen-lo. The combination of speed, damage output, and durability makes him an excellent choice. If I need to fill a ranged slot then a good choice for me is the Grid Iron who wrecks with the Gauss quirk and Mods.

Okay here is how I feel about XL engines. On Lights...no problem. On heavier mechs...depends on the chassis but iffy. I don't mind putting XLs on "football" shaped mechs as the side torsos are not hit often with good twist. I will also put them on snipers or LRM boats. But for the most part I do not use them.

If you have read this far the awesome.

So after all of that my decision needs to be based around replacing my LRM boat which is my primary ranged mech.
Do I go with the Misery for a ranged option and just really focus on my heat management, and just ignore leaving 10 kg on the table?
Work up a new Assault (hence this thread) to take advantage of the full 240 kg & potentially be a better option than the Stalker?
Go with the DDC brawler, forgo the Heavy chassis, & run 2 ranged mediums?

At this point I was going to work up a new Assault & see if I can get it to perform better than my Stalkers. But time & C-Bills require me to focus my efforts. I have faced off against plenty of Banshee & Highlanders. I have found the Highlander to be very tough but have never been left with a good feeling about their damage output for whatever reason. I saw a Highlander win a non-CW match against 3 mechs just because they could not kill the sucker. lol. I have seen the Banshee wreck face. But I have never been impressed with their durability. But those observations are random. I have no idea of the pilot skill/loadouts.

Which brought me to the community for advise.

Thanks,
Cellinor

p.s. I reserve the right to change my mind about my initial CW opinions.

[Cold Cash]

Yeh i'd say your observations are pretty spot on.

Ive played 4 different drop decks, since cw started.

1st was a safe but minimally effective long range build, huge flaws as cw evolved quickly into rushes etc.

Switch to a crab 4ac5 erppc, cent ah ac20 2srm4 srm6, tbr-9s erppc/gauss and locust pb 3ml,2mg,1sml or locust 1v erLL 2mg

Because my clan was slow to move into org cw i pugged my way to level 5 kurita, this creates it own problems, lots of losses and lots of uncoordinated games(mainly players refusing to listen to orders or suggestions).

I came up with 2 different drop decks because of this, my loyalty point farmer deck and my omg its a soul crushing pugging cw deck!

The LP farming deck is actually quite a solid performer in solid teamplay its always a 1000+ point damage deck so its affect on the game is felt and it fills all the roles nicely without an op mech in it.
phoenix locust 1v(quirked), phoenix shadowhawk ac5 2xsrm6 LL 2mg, phoenix tbr 3mg 2xml 2xLL 2xsrm6 phoenis blmr ac10 2x LPL 5 xml.
The LP farm and Cbill farm was nice, only problem was because it was nicely balanced for good teamplay the deck sucked for dumb teamplay.

So i added a 4th deck which i would use to troll for Cbills and actually have fun despite my team being useless(it still works fine in good teamplay pugs).

I added the blr-1s missile boat and changed the tbr-9s to full erppc godmode, kept the locust and kept the shadowhawk.

My thoughts on missile boats is they are amazing in small numbers and with very high lrm loadouts.

Lrm40 with high refire rate.
On a rush because of my speed im always at the back, this allows me to target high priority mechs who potentially can stop rushes by them selves(crabs/whales/hawks/banshee) and drop them in a few seconds while still moving forward with little to no dps loss as long as i have a target.

Take that in reverse for defense against a rush, now i can take out fast movers before they have much facetime with the precious gens! which leaves the big guns exposed to mass fire once they engage.

Caveat:
If highly organised def/att have massive ecm cover and our team is stupid with no uav, this strat fails hard.

Also fails hard if you have to many Lrm boats or piddling lrm builds, which is often seen in pugging cw.
by piddling i mean mechs using 1 lrm10 or 15 with 3-400 ammo, on a rush these decks are easily ignored or overwhelmed with very little damage/mech stoppage return.

The problem with to many lrm boats is the same for any game once your screen of brawler mechs is gone the enemy is free to charge you and clean up.

As a roundup i would have to say the crab deck is top fav, but relies on picking the right mech for the moment.

Both the troll deck and Phoenix quartet are fun and effective deck choices without being boring meta choices.


My vote would be for the banshee, dont own one but seen enough to know its a great platform in cw.

Edited by Cold Cash, 29 December 2014 - 02:56 PM.

[DarthPeanut]

Pretty much what Tahribator said.

Banshee is a better choice than the hoverlander right now I think as well. You can pack all the jets you want on that thing and hit it... you will be rewarded with a couple meters of height after your full 5 seconds of burn. Great if you are hung up on a rock but not much for anything else. Pretty underwhelming for jump sniping or jump brawling compared to it's former glory days. The jj impulse and rate of climb is just to slow.

Banshee has great lots of well positioned hardpoints, decent speed, decent hitboxes, and tanks dmg to those big shield arms very well if you twist.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 29 December 2014 - 03:22 PM.

[InspectorG]

Banshee>Battlemaster>Poor Highlander.

I heart Banshee so i am biased.

Banshee M, xl400 with 1LPL, rest MPL and dhs. DECEPTIVELY quick and can arm shield like a boss. Victor was the poptart brawler, Wubshee is the Hit'N'Run Assault. You can literally pop out from nowhere they would expect an Assault early match and melt faces.
Or have the speed to vulture late match. Use terrain wisely and you can move like a fat medium. Wubshee is its own thing, and this is in a good way.

Banshee E, Battlemaster can Gauss...who cares? Banshee E can, if piloted well, STARE down a Whale. How many other mechs can do that? King Crab maybe? 3AC5 with quirks and modules dont seem like much on paper, but in game you have a Gauss that fires about every second. Taking agro? Chain fire and zig-zag and the average pilot will spread damage or miss till you get to a better position. And you get some Med lasers as well. Win.
You get 2 shield arms and a STD engine. You shouldnt die early.

Banshee S, the laser-boat, or MIni Atlas. Dont use the missile point, not worth the hitbox.
Laserboat(2 LL, rest ML, 41shs) CAN USE STD HEATSINKS WITH NO UPGRADES...know what that means???
CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Prolly the cheapest Assault to level. EVAR. Why spend $ on a mech you may not keep?

Comps concider the Banshee E to be tier 1 or 2:
http://metamechs.com...-lists/is-list/
http://metamechs.com...ists/comp-list/
http://metamechs.com...sts/group-list/
http://metamechs.com...ists/solo-list/

Not the end-all-be-all, but, between all those lists, Banshee E is well represented by players who want high performance.
Battlemaster and Highlander barely appear.

I dont know battlemasters so, im kinda ignorant.
But i really only fear the Wub version.
LRM boat ill bum rush if i can...while in a medium or light.

Highlander, unfortunately, is collecting disability checks and watching TV. His girlfriend is hot, though. Dont know what she sees in him. Maybe she thinks they will give him back his JJ and he could poptart once again?

Go Banshee, you wont be disappoint.

[InspectorG]

Cellinor, on 29 December 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

I have seen the Banshee wreck face. But I have never been impressed with their durability.

The durability is not, 'in-built' so to say, it takes skill.

Facehugging and staredown will get you killed like any other mech. The E can play chicken, solo, if the conditions are right - say an energy or gauss Whale. You have to torso twist and know just where to place those AC shots. Once that enemy RT is gone - and the arm with it, Its far easier. Penta/hexWhale?, no, use a buddy.

Wubshee survives on speed and surprise. You dont play like an Assault, you play like a support medium...on steroids, with self esteem issues. Bully people and takes they lunch money. Best when they dont see you coming or are pre-occupied.

Banshee S? Fire support. you can give up 1E for 2 shield arms if you feel it a good trade but the engine cap limits twist speed. Personal choice.

La Malinche? Dont. Looks cool though.

[Bloodweaver]

Highlander USED to be, along with the Victor, the best mech in the game bar none. This was quite a while back, even before Project Phoenix. Mounting one or two jump jets would actually propel you a fair distance into the air(any more than two, though, and your added height was negligible). PPCs and AC/5s had almost identical projectile speeds. So, Victors and Highlanders became the metamechs - pop-tart AC5+PPC combos, and all the more so since the weapons could be focused on one side of the 'mech, in the Highlander's case. If you didn't take one of these builds, with either a Highlander, Victor, or Cataphract-3D, you were running something less-than-absolutely-optimal.


Of course, neither the weapons nor jump jets were the cause of the problem. The cause was the ability of all weapons in this game to instantaneously converge on a single point, and the ability of PPCs and ACs to also deliver their full damage value in that same instant. No damage spread, no delay. Pin-point front-loaded damage. But, this is evidently a mechanic that will not ever go away in MWO(although it has been dramatically reduced in Clan tech). So they "fixed" everything else except that. Since then, jump jets have become marginally more useful again(although not nearly as much as they used to be), and the Victor's negative quirks have been removed.

The Highlander, however, has yet to recover. PGI did provide its variants with various weapon quirks, but they are pretty lackluster. It seems that someone in the company still thinks of the Highlander as a high-performing chassis. It's not. It doesn't have very many hardpoints. It's not very mobile. Trying to increase its mobility by using jump jets is a failing proposition due to how weak they are now. It's main advantage over the Atlas is that it can carry a ballistic weapon on an arm that can move side-to-side. This is something a Victor can also do, but with better speed, more mobility, and more arm range. They're about as common as Quickdraws nowadays. That indicates something's wrong with it.

I personally enjoy using one just because it looks and feels cool. But in no way would I recommend it as superior to the Banshee, not at all. It's not even close. The Banshee is a MONSTER. The amount of damage you can pour out of it is insane. Triple LPL, triple AC/5, or a PPC+AC/20 combination, all with mutliple medium lasers for support... it's ridiculous, really. And once you learn to torso twist, it becomes one of the most durable 'mechs in the game. You can make an Atlas cry with a Banshee.

[Richard Warts]

Banshee hands down

[Cellinor]

Thanks for all of the input. I will pick up a Banshee this week & start working on it.