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Thunderbolts Creating Bad Gameplay


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#1081 Artifact

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 09:32 AM

View PostMirumoto Izanami, on 14 January 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:



Actually, TT represents the difficulties of being inside a 15-100+ ton walking machine moving at 45-120+ kph while firing at targets anywhere from several hundred to several thousand meters away that are also moving anywhere from 40-120+ kph, through actual terrain, smoke, and whatnot, while being under stress of actually possibly dying, being fatigued, doing so while manipulating whatever control scheme they had, as opposed to just playing a computer game with a keyboard and mouse.

The fictitious pilots were probably quite good shots at gunnery 3 (step above average).

If anything, MWO does a piss poor job of simulating such factors, and has gone the more arcade route.


Also, Butterbee is easy to beat (unless it gets lucky). It runs hot.


^^^^^This^^^^^

This game was doomed from the moment the dev team opted to create a system where the reticle stays solid and unmoving, no matter WHAT the pilot is doing. In real life, any weapon suffers from a degree of uncertainty as to where the projectile/laser dot is going to go. Hands shake. Calibrations are knocked off by wear and tear. Heat and chaotic situations play havoc with computers and software. Movement compensation systems have real limitations (and will always have real limitations, it's just physics.)

This all adds up to a degree of uncertainty as to where a projectile/laser is going to actually go in real life. As amazing as an Abrams main gun system is, simple math tells us that even with 1 MOA accuracy (which is absurd when considering the nature of a battlemech, but we'll assume tech is pretty amazing in 3050,) a shot from 1000 meters away will land somewhere in a 30cm circle. Anywhere in that circle. however, large bore guns fired from moving platforms that don't involve thousands of tons of stabilization equipment aren't 1 MOA.

They are, however, more like 15 MOA systems -- you can expect a moving Abrams tank, operated by a skilled crew, to hit a 4.3 meter circle at a range of 1000 meters. That's roughly the size of a battlemech torso. In order to hit it reliably, you have to aim center mass, and the shot could go anywhere -- head, CT, LT, RT. Aim left, right, up, or down from center mass, and the shot is more likely to miss than to hit anything.

There is precisely zero interaction with wind, Coriolis effects, platform movement, and ranging discrepancies based on target elevation from you. Sure, computers handle a lot of that, but not all of it.

The devs chose to create 0 MOA weapons, unaffected by anything (with the notable exception of jump jets, for some strange reason.) The outcome is an arcade mode shooter where 'skill' just means you're good at lining your mouse up with a target and clicking. It was a choice driven, no doubt, by the desire to 'get a wider audience.' I certainly can't fault Russ Bullock for making a wise business decision.

As a gaming decision, it's terrible. The TT game these rules draw from represented that kind of uncertainty VERY well. All of those rules are utterly absent from from this poor excuse for Battletech.

What SHOULD happen is that a moving mech has a higher MOA than a stationary mech. Uneven terrain and moving at top speed should cause reticle jitter -- gyroscopes do not compensate for high amplitude, high g impact events -- AKA running in a battlemech. The /pilot's head/ would be jostled around, forget the platform. Want it to be less? Buy a TC, add quirks to specific chassis, etc. the dev team dropped the ball completely.

Edited by Artifact, 14 January 2015 - 10:06 AM.


#1082 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 09:38 AM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 14 January 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:


1- No, you're right we should all go with the dumbest build imaginable (STD260, ERPPC, 2 Flamers, 3 MLs, SRM6, 2MGs, and one ton ammo each), Honestly I take back the "dumbest" part. The dumbest one is all flamers. When are you going to accept that MW:O is not TT? TT is played with half blind pilots that can't aim their weapons right half the time, unless they had a targeting computer to tell them to, and extremely different mechanics. We can actually AIM our shots. ALso, for the record, my 9S build for the longest time has been TDR-9S LPL+5ML. Fun build, and I'm thinking of switching to a 3 LPLs in the STs set up, maybe even 4, who knows.
For a Lark one of the Lawmen took a 6 Flamer Stalker into several matches maybe a year ago. He flamed the enemy, I Shot them up with a 1 Gauss 1 ERPPC 3SRM6 Atlas-D-DC. There was Much complaining cause HE was cheating! He stopped only because he wasn't making enough money/xp. But we killed 4-6 enemies a game like that!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 14 January 2015 - 09:39 AM.


#1083 Metus regem

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 10:02 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 14 January 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

For a Lark one of the Lawmen took a 6 Flamer Stalker into several matches maybe a year ago. He flamed the enemy, I Shot them up with a 1 Gauss 1 ERPPC 3SRM6 Atlas-D-DC. There was Much complaining cause HE was cheating! He stopped only because he wasn't making enough money/xp. But we killed 4-6 enemies a game like that!



Still remeber the time I got flamed to death by a 8 cFlamer Dire wolf... it was embarasing, sicne I was in a Kit Fox at the time...

#1084 Mirumoto Izanami

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 10:04 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 14 January 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

For a Lark one of the Lawmen took a 6 Flamer Stalker into several matches maybe a year ago. He flamed the enemy, I Shot them up with a 1 Gauss 1 ERPPC 3SRM6 Atlas-D-DC. There was Much complaining cause HE was cheating! He stopped only because he wasn't making enough money/xp. But we killed 4-6 enemies a game like that!



Lancemate sometimes goes out in his four flamer pirate's bane,while the rest of us take serious business lights. Makes wolf packing a target super easy.

#1085 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 11:28 AM

View PostMetus regem, on 14 January 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:



Still remeber the time I got flamed to death by a 8 cFlamer Dire wolf... it was embarasing, sicne I was in a Kit Fox at the time...

I remember when a 4 Flamer Mech tried to force me to shut down by heat while I kept plugging him... WITH MY GAUSS!!! :lol:

#1086 IraqiWalker

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 11:39 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 14 January 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

For a Lark one of the Lawmen took a 6 Flamer Stalker into several matches maybe a year ago. He flamed the enemy, I Shot them up with a 1 Gauss 1 ERPPC 3SRM6 Atlas-D-DC. There was Much complaining cause HE was cheating! He stopped only because he wasn't making enough money/xp. But we killed 4-6 enemies a game like that!


That's more teamwork than anything. The flamer build on it's own does pretty much nothing.

#1087 Mott

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 11:59 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 14 January 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

I remember when a 4 Flamer Mech tried to force me to shut down by heat while I kept plugging him... WITH MY GAUSS!!! :lol:


This is as bad as the guy who tried to duel-snipe me last night 800m across the Terra Therma cauldron. I was in HBR with 1xGauss + 4xERMLs... he was in a BJ-1X... with 6xMLs!

He just stood there eating gauss round after gauss round in the CT until dead.

Wtf?

#1088 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 01:17 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 14 January 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:


1- No, you're right we should all go with the dumbest build imaginable (STD260, ERPPC, 2 Flamers, 3 MLs, SRM6, 2MGs, and one ton ammo each), Honestly I take back the "dumbest" part. The dumbest one is all flamers. When are you going to accept that MW:O is not TT? TT is played with half blind pilots that can't aim their weapons right half the time, unless they had a targeting computer to tell them to, and extremely different mechanics.



How much ordinance per kill does the military expend? Pretty sure real military engagements don't see near the accuracy per kill we see in this game. So can't really agree with your reasoning there.

#1089 Metus regem

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 01:30 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 14 January 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:



How much ordinance per kill does the military expend? Pretty sure real military engagements don't see near the accuracy per kill we see in this game. So can't really agree with your reasoning there.


Depends Bishop, Snipers in Vietnam fired an average 1.33 rounds per kill, Riflemen were north of 23,000 rounds....

#1090 IraqiWalker

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 01:31 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 14 January 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:



How much ordinance per kill does the military expend? Pretty sure real military engagements don't see near the accuracy per kill we see in this game. So can't really agree with your reasoning there.


With armored engagements? I'm not a tank expert so someone else should weight in, but from what I've seen. Armored combat accuracy is terrifying, and even with reactive armor, it's still pretty high. Ordnance per kill ratio is low for armored combat. Again, this is just from what I've seen, and I am nowhere near being an expert on that subject.

However, in infantry combat, ordnance per kill ratio is pretty high (to the tune of emptying three clips -90 shots- before getting a single kill, if at all). Accuracy is low, and the ratio is high. With TT mech combat being more a hybrid of the two, it's going to be a middle ground. However, the problem still remains :why aim at the legs when I'm already wailing on the CT? If I fire 4 MLs from my right arm, I should be aiming them all in one spot, not spreading them.

The problem is that TT also takes into account that it's a 10 second turn, and so the weapons fire is done individually instead of in mini-alphas. Also, in the 10 seconds, it /somewhat/ simulates evasive maneuvers. Which you can't do that well in tanks (they don't do torso twisting that well)

Edited by IraqiWalker, 14 January 2015 - 01:31 PM.


#1091 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 01:38 PM

View PostMetus regem, on 14 January 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:


Depends Bishop, Snipers in Vietnam fired an average 1.33 rounds per kill, Riflemen were north of 23,000 rounds....

Yes, and everyone in this game is a sniper....yes? And how many people were snipers in their tanks?

#1092 Metus regem

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 01:39 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 14 January 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

The problem is that TT also takes into account that it's a 10 second turn, and so the weapons fire is done individually instead of in mini-alphas. Also, in the 10 seconds, it /somewhat/ simulates evasive maneuvers. Which you can't do that well in tanks (they don't do torso twisting that well)


They spin in place pretty darn fast, I can tell you that... Hell I've seen a Leopard II drift around.... not just on youtube either....

A tank with a skilled driver is a pretty nimble thing, in open ground.

View PostBishop Steiner, on 14 January 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

Yes, and everyone in this game is a sniper....yes? And how many people were snipers in their tanks?


In MWO? All of us :lol:

#1093 Clint Steel

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 01:43 PM

I find little issue with the Thunderbolts, they are actually relevant not, where before they were just a meh Mech.

#1094 IraqiWalker

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 10:08 PM

View PostMetus regem, on 14 January 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:


They spin in place pretty darn fast, I can tell you that... Hell I've seen a Leopard II drift around.... not just on youtube either....

A tank with a skilled driver is a pretty nimble thing, in open ground.


I've seen Abrams tanks doing donuts in place. I agree they can be very nimble, but they don't have limbs that can move in unusual ways and allow them to dodge incoming shots that way. The core moves similarly, but the external limbs are where the difference occurs.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 15 January 2015 - 01:10 PM.


#1095 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 04:39 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 14 January 2015 - 06:27 AM, said:

Don't laugh, I foresee this actually being used some day.



It already is in the MM. Its why when your good you cost more in the MM, so you get more terribads on your side. Its to balance out your skill and expect you to carry harder to win more.

#1096 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 04:54 AM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 14 January 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:


1- No, you're right we should all go with the dumbest build imaginable (STD260, ERPPC, 2 Flamers, 3 MLs, SRM6, 2MGs, and one ton ammo each), Honestly I take back the "dumbest" part. The dumbest one is all flamers. When are you going to accept that MW:O is not TT? TT is played with half blind pilots that can't aim their weapons right half the time, unless they had a targeting computer to tell them to, and extremely different mechanics. We can actually AIM our shots. ALso, for the record, my


The funny thing is, that is basically all they had to go by really. Even an Abrams crew does their targeting by a TC.

The pilots are not aiming their weapons really, the TC is doing so.

I mean, wanna simulate aiming and firing mech weapons? Take 2 Rifles and hold them dangling down at your sides basically how a mech does it, and then try walking around and actually hitting what your aiming at with nothing more then your own "skill". You prolly wont even hit a 4 skill TT pilot and sure as **** wont be landing a nice heavy 50 pt lolpha on w/e box or target you shoot...

What MWO should have is a LBX effect on their weapons, where rather then going perfectly straight, it should deviate some at random, more so based on how many weapons you fire all at once. Fire 1 weapon, no deviation, 2? Barely noticeable, but some minor deviation. 3? You begin to notice the shots kinda flying off in random directions, 4 and beyond, it looks, well, like an SRM6 shot without the artemis. That would give us spread PPFLD and make PPFLD, except at really close range and in dire instances kinda.....bad?

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 15 January 2015 - 04:55 AM.


#1097 Ursus_Spiritus

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 07:54 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 08 January 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

3-4 PPCs is in CBTs TROs since the 80s. Heck there is even a tank with 3 PPCs and 30 sinks just so it never generates heat cause vehicles are not allowed to generate heat at all on TT*! EVERY TANK CAN ALPHA STRIKE EVERY TURN.... But heaven help us if a Mech does it! <_<


*And that is likely what PGI does not want to add them to this game... It would cause pandemonium!


To contrast that though, Vehicles crit VERY easily not to mention die a dime a dozen.

Although... I would LOVE to see an LRM or SRM launcher... *facepalm*... ghost heat?!
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM_Carrier

#1098 Ursus_Spiritus

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 07:57 AM

One factor... that sadly probably can not be implemented is that the random rolls of table top. Not the direct aiming we are seeing in the game.

We would not see nearly as much concentrated point damage every salvo. Yes, it would be possible though far less likely to hit a location with two/three/four of a specific weapon type.

#1099 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 08:07 AM

View Post8100d 5p4tt3r, on 15 January 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

One factor... that sadly probably can not be implemented is that the random rolls of table top. Not the direct aiming we are seeing in the game.

We would not see nearly as much concentrated point damage every salvo. Yes, it would be possible though far less likely to hit a location with two/three/four of a specific weapon type.


Deviation on the shot, increasing the more weapons you fire all at once. Max spread being something similar to firing an SRM6 without artemis. And at 600m, that would be a pretty heavy spread that would ensure you dont land much in the same spot. Would kinda limit Alphas to shorter ranges of 200m and closer toensure you atleast hit with most of what you fire. Beyond that it would be chain firing or 2 weapon fire grouping. Sure, good aim could still simulate results now, but it would be with 10-30 dmg, not with 60 at 600m....

#1100 LordBraxton

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 08:07 AM

View Post8100d 5p4tt3r, on 15 January 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

To contrast that though, Vehicles crit VERY easily not to mention die a dime a dozen.

Although... I would LOVE to see an LRM or SRM launcher... *facepalm*... ghost heat?!
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM_Carrier


vehicles may be fragile, but they don't generate heat :>





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