1123 replies to this topic

[Black Arachne]

Metus regem, on 13 January 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

IS mechs can have sized Hard points.... I would love to see just pod space on my clan mechs, the way they are ment to be.... But well, that is just another windmill to be tilting at these days...

Limits would be needed on both sides - take a look at the tech manuals for battletech and you'll see a pattern - which mechs got 10-12 lasers - which got 3-4 ppcs and so on. Once in place, no one will ever have to worry about the next 6ppc stalker, direstar...you know thats mechs that fire once and almost kill themselves in the process but they core the other guy first.

Edited by Black Arachne, 13 January 2015 - 03:21 PM.

[White Bear 84]

Nerf the 'ER PPC TDR' and another meta mech will only fill its space..

Want to talk about balance? Maybe in regards to CW it does need some adjusting? But if you adjust the TDR then something should be done about the 'OP' clan mechs. Then we can discuss balance again.

Was thinking about it at actually only see a handful of these in PUG matches - even some of the groups we go up against (and often full 12 man groups) don't even run these.. ..can't be that OP.

Maybe it is actually the design of the CW levels - what is best for defenders? Take out the enemy before they even get close to you, all in the comfort of your own armchair. Maybe if the levels were tiered, like 'rush' modes, more brawling could be encouraged. Of course im sure there would be a meta build in there people would complain about...

Edited by White Bear 84, 13 January 2015 - 03:24 PM.

[Gloris]

People will defend anything, no matter how broken or stupid, if they can use it to lame, then it it is "balanced" and people are just "whining"

[darkchylde]

White Bear 84, on 13 January 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

Nerf the 'ER PPC TDR' and another meta mech will only fill its space..

Want to talk about balance? Maybe in regards to CW it does need some adjusting? But if you adjust the TDR then something should be done about the 'OP' clan mechs. Then we can discuss balance again.

Was thinking about it at actually only see a handful of these in PUG matches - even some of the groups we go up against (and often full 12 man groups) don't even run these.. ..can't be that OP.

Maybe it is actually the design of the CW levels - what is best for defenders? Take out the enemy before they even get close to you, all in the comfort of your own armchair. Maybe if the levels were tiered, like 'rush' modes, more brawling could be encouraged. Of course im sure there would be a meta build in there people would complain about...

Not everyone is asking for nerfs - some are suggesting that these tdr's perks should also be applied to the Awwesome/Warhawk/K2...the mechs that were built as PPC platforms should be given the tools to function as one.

Regarding clan mechs being OP - one thing that does need looking into is a proper crit system. If a clan mech loses a side torso - the mech was crippled. It's movement and firing capabilities were penalized and not just making it harder to hit but because it lost a third of its cooling capabilities. And I would love to see in affect for actuators, gyros, and weapons as well.

Edited by darkchylde, 13 January 2015 - 03:37 PM.

[White Bear 84]

darkchylde, on 13 January 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

Not everyone is asking for nerfs - some are suggesting that these tdr's perks should also be applied to the Awwesome/Warhawk/K2...the mechs that were built as PPC platforms should be given the tools to function as one. Regarding clan mechs being OP - one thing that does need looking into is a proper crit system. If a clan mech loses a side torso - the mech was crippled. It's movement and firing capabilities were penalized and not just making it harder to hit but because it lost a third of its cooling capabilities. And I would love to see in affect for actuators, gyros, and weapons as well.

Wholeheartedly agree here.

Would love for a reason to take the gauss of my gausscat. Currently use it for gauss practice but miss the old PPC build..

[IraqiWalker]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 13 January 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

IraqiWalker.


No your being at best ambiguous worse straight up wrong.

1 a mech does not add "flavor". MWO is not a steak. The mechs have theme's already, hence their drawbacks and bonus.
2. Boats are for children who don't want a real MWO game but an I win button, I'm sure you wre a great fan of splat cats, and small laser hunchbacks... they add all kinds of "flavor"
3. I don't think you played the TT game. Why? Anyone who would try and bring the crap we see here in MWO wouldn't be allowed to play.

Please ease up on the gas pedal before you slam full speed into the brick wall called logic

1- Tuning the mechs to work in ways most people didn't think of (ie: using your brain to be creative instead of following static formulas) adds a lot of flavor to the mech itself, and the experience. It allows you to customize the mech to fit your style of play. Be it an AC 40 Cicada, or a wubshee.

2- You do know that the splat cat is a modification on one of the oldest canon boats, right? Sarna CPLT-C1 Butterbee. There are entire chassis in lore, that come stock as dedicated boats. Or is the Longbow not a real mech? Maybe the Catapult line is just a hallucination?

The fact that you don't understand, nor are willing to comprehend specialization is YOUR problem. It exists in the game, it exists in the lore, and plenty of people think the world is better for it. There are designs that are generalists, and then there are specialists, both have their strengths and weaknesses, and their merits.

3- Were you at my FLGS? I never saw you there. Probably because you were never in Baghdad in the late 1990s-early 2000s. We played stock games, we played scenarios, we played tech 2, and tech 1, and we had custom mechs. See, we played to have fun.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

1 yes its brain work to put 7 small pulse laser on a fire starter, 3 errppc on thunderbolt..... genius
2 yes there are plenty of lore mechs that while nice in books where never allowed in TT games including the aforementioned cat.... unless of course Its the worse tt game every played by only one person.
3. I was busy fighting in Afghanistan.. just saying not that's important or add crap to MWO.

Edited by Zerstorer Stallin, 13 January 2015 - 08:08 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

IraqiWalker, on 13 January 2015 - 04:01 PM, said:

Please ease up on the gas pedal before you slam full speed into the brick wall called logic

1- Tuning the mechs to work in ways most people didn't think of (ie: using your brain to be creative instead of following static formulas) adds a lot of flavor to the mech itself, and the experience. It allows you to customize the mech to fit your style of play. Be it an AC 40 Cicada, or a wubshee.

2- You do know that the splat cat is a modification on one of the oldest canon boats, right? Sarna CPLT-C1 Butterbee. There are entire chassis in lore, that come stock as dedicated boats. Or is the Longbow not a real mech? Maybe the Catapult line is just a hallucination?

The fact that you don't understand, nor are willing to comprehend specialization is YOUR problem. It exists in the game, it exists in the lore, and plenty of people think the world is better for it. There are designs that are generalists, and then there are specialists, both have their strengths and weaknesses, and their merits.

3- Were you at my FLGS? I never saw you there. Probably because you were never in Baghdad in the late 1990s-early 2000s. We played stock games, we played scenarios, we played tech 2, and tech 1, and we had custom mechs. See, we played to have fun.

Some other boats:
-Piranha
-HBK-4P
-Nova Prime
-AWS-8Q
-AWS-9M
-AWS-9Q
-AWS-11M
-LGB-7Q
-Warhawk Prime
-Hellstar Prime
-DVS-2
-ANH-2A
-ANH-1E
-ANH-1G

Not to mention vehicles like:
-SRM carrier
-LRM carrier
-Demolisher
-Alacorn
-Burke
-Ontos

[Zerstorer Stallin]

so let me get this right you are saying having boats adds to the MWO experience?!? Seriously?!?

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 14 January 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

so let me get this right you are saying having boats adds to the MWO experience?!? Seriously?!?

No, but arguing that removing them entirely doesn't add to the MWO experience. I'd lose my absolute favorite mech ever (AWS-8Q) and my favorite tank from TT (triple AC-10 Alacorn) if they removed all forms of boating.

I've been vehemently against the quirk system once I saw that it turned a few IS chassis into "boat or GTFO."

There are some mechs that are meant to boat, even in TT. Look at that short list of boats pulled from TROs.

There are multiple issues to boating in this game that can't be addressed. Ever. Same as TT. Take the AWS-8Q for example:get within 3 hexes and it can no longer punch you with it's triple PPCs but instead has to rely on it's dinky small laser. But if I play my AWS-8Q lance in TT smart, I never had to fire lasers. the other three AWS-8Qs I had provide overlapping fields of fire much like we see in MWO.

Throwing hissy fits that ALL boating should be removed is about as accurate as claiming all the Clan mechs in this game are OMGWTFBBQSAUCE levels of OP.

[ItchyTriggerFingers]

It's page 50+ but I gotta comment on this.

+50% heat reduction is effing crazy. The Awesome is supposedly *the* pinnicle Inner Sphere mech, yet this TDS variant gets buffed above and beyond what is reasonable. Drop it in-line with the Awesome. This is crazy stupid.

Please re-evaluate what it trying to do be done with this chassis.

Else, can my raven have ERLLas buffed to +50% ?

[ShadowSpirit]

The problem isn't so much the mech as it is the weapon. The weapon is so utterly useless on anything but a Thunderbolt that they need to change the weapon.

[topgun505]

I never said the SCR or TBR weren't problems as well. However; in regards to clans you have to conceed at least for right now, part of their problem is lack of options. You have 3 options for heavies. One is most obviously inferior and the other has the magic jesus box so obviously that one will see some play. For mediums you really only have two (i dont count the IF as medium) and again the Nova is the inferior choice (and the borked HBs of the SCR just help that decision along).

So it's a no brainer that you see what you see for clan units right now.

Ultimatum X, on 12 January 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

Yes, and how many clan units drop in full waves of Stormcrows or Timberwolves?

Both sides will have their top tier go-to decks, this will always be the case due to restrictions.



Also, and this gets left out all the time.

We have TWO maps for CW. Two.


One of them is bad for 9S ER PPCs because it is a hot map, with convoluted approach lanes.


The other is basically custom design for long range energy snipers, and you can basically see the enemy team almost to their spawns...



Lastly, it's not dominating the Solo & Group queue from what I've seen - it shows up, it's useful but it's not even remotely as common as it is in CW.

[Kensaisama]

The common denominator in all of these arguements is the pilot, I say blame the pilots

[Metus regem]

Kensaisama, on 14 January 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

The common denominator in all of these arguements is the pilot, I say blame the pilots

"Decent pilots are OP, they need to be Nerfed!"

[Joseph Mallan]

Metus regem, on 14 January 2015 - 06:13 AM, said:

"Decent pilots are OP, they need to be Nerfed!"

Don't laugh, I foresee this actually being used some day.

[Wildstreak]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 January 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

7.5 heat does not give a dang if it's a hot map. Yeah, you can't spam as much, but neither can the other guy.


not really, because actual, by the book TT customization had a lot of checks and balances. It's just like with any home RPG or the like most players and GMs conveniently ignored whatever rules they wanted.

Not really.
Originally it looked like it had them since before the customization rules existed, you read about custom & reparied Mechs with problems & benefits. Like the character who had a Mech made from parts of a Warhammer & Archer, that hybrid had modifications to prevent it from being OP. Same when the Wolfman was made.

Then the customization rules came out. I could take a Hunchback-4G, swap the AC20 for AC10, drop a couple of heat sinks keeping 11 and buff the engine to get a speedy raider with heat neutrality. MWO has a different heat system so it does not work out the same here.

It got worse once you went outside the home group. I went to a convention and played in a CBT tournament. I do not know where someone in another topic said they only use stock in CBT tournaments, this one was custom jobs. After getting knocked out early, I spent time talking and listening to other players, there was a meta on the convention circuit but it was not largely known of because this was back before the Internet or any other computer media brought so many together as today. There was a larger meta like we see in MWO where only certain Mechs with certain builds were viable, anything else was pretty much doomed and that was a LARGE chunk of the TROs.

So we have the same thing here despite differences (no BV, different heat, etc.), certain builds of certain Mechs or else you just play PUG vs PUG.

It all started with FASA when the convention circuit figured out how to game the system.

[Metus regem]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 January 2015 - 06:27 AM, said:

Don't laugh, I foresee this actually being used some day.

I am sure that I have seen it being called for at least once on these boards, in the few months I have been here....

Like Bishop, I enjoy taking less then optimized mechs out, and beating the "meta" mechs... Since a lot of them face tank, or cannot move, shoot and think at the same time....

[IraqiWalker]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 13 January 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

1 yes its brain work to put 7 small pulse laser on a fire starter, 3 errppc on thunderbolt..... genius
2 yes there are plenty of lore mechs that while nice in books where never allowed in TT games including the aforementioned cat.... unless of course Its the worse tt game every played by only one person.
3. I was busy fighting in Afghanistan.. just saying not that's important or add crap to MWO.

1- No, you're right we should all go with the dumbest build imaginable (STD260, ERPPC, 2 Flamers, 3 MLs, SRM6, 2MGs, and one ton ammo each), Honestly I take back the "dumbest" part. The dumbest one is all flamers. When are you going to accept that MW:O is not TT? TT is played with half blind pilots that can't aim their weapons right half the time, unless they had a targeting computer to tell them to, and extremely different mechanics. We can actually AIM our shots. ALso, for the record, my 9S build for the longest time has been TDR-9S LPL+5ML. Fun build, and I'm thinking of switching to a 3 LPLs in the STs set up, maybe even 4, who knows.

Boating to the full quirks doesn't require a lot of thought or knowledge, but customizing the mech in other ways does. Your mentality is as bad as single weapon boating. It's just the opposite end of the spectrum

2- Okay, NOW we're starting to get to the root of your problem. You're used to banning mechs that you guys didn't know how to deal with. Yeah, no, that's the wrong way to play. The whole point of playing is to have challenging fun battles, with opponents that make you work for it. It's why after a few years, we started letting custom variants in.

The Aforementioned canon splat cat is a beautiful mech, and also not that difficult to deal with. Take any variant of the Caestus -preferably the Gauss one-, or the Bombardier, and that catapult will not get into range to fire (there's a 200-300 point differential, but I assume you're not running 1v1 mech battles), or the Crusader 3R, or a Jagermech S (which will leave you with 300 BV points to spare that you can use to add other mechs to your force), or any combination of light mechs that totals up to 1200+ points. You could have 2.8 URM-60Ls on the board for the price of that one CPLT-C1, and if you play your cards right, you win hands down.

Quirks and the mechlab are nice. They don't punish you if you don't run a min maxed build, but reward you if you decide to upgrade the mech a bit. I see no harm in running the HBK-4SP close to stock, with an upgraded engine, Artemis4, max armor, and DHS. The weapons are still going to be MLs, and SRM6s, but if I chose to switch them to LRMs, I'm not going to be punished, I'll still receive benefits from the missile quirks. My LRMs aren't penalized.

Looks like Convention games do allow custom mechs after all.

Spoiler

Wildstreak, on 14 January 2015 - 07:17 AM, said:

I went to a convention and played in a CBT tournament. I do not know where someone in another topic said they only use stock in CBT tournaments, this one was custom jobs. After getting knocked out early, I spent time talking and listening to other players, there was a meta on the convention circuit but it was not largely known of because this was back before the Internet or any other computer media brought so many together as today. There was a larger meta like we see in MWO where only certain Mechs with certain builds were viable, anything else was pretty much doomed and that was a LARGE chunk of the TROs.

3- Not trying to be snarky here, but that proves you weren't in Baghdad, and thus not near my FLGS.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 14 January 2015 - 08:48 AM.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

IraqiWalker, on 14 January 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

1- No, you're right we should all go with the dumbest build imaginable (STD260, ERPPC, 2 Flamers, 3 MLs, SRM6, 2MGs, and one ton ammo each), Honestly I take back the "dumbest" part. The dumbest one is all flamers. When are you going to accept that MW:O is not TT? TT is played with half blind pilots that can't aim their weapons right half the time, unless they had a targeting computer to tell them to, and extremely different mechanics. We can actually AIM our shots. ALso, for the record, my 9S build for the longest time has been TDR-9S LPL+5ML. Fun build, and I'm thinking of switching to a 3 LPLs in the STs set up, maybe even 4, who knows.

Actually, TT represents the difficulties of being inside a 15-100+ ton walking machine moving at 45-120+ kph while firing at targets anywhere from several hundred to several thousand meters away that are also moving anywhere from 40-120+ kph, through actual terrain, smoke, and whatnot, while being under stress of actually possibly dying, being fatigued, doing so while manipulating whatever control scheme they had, as opposed to just playing a computer game with a keyboard and mouse.

The fictitious pilots were probably quite good shots at gunnery 3 (step above average).

If anything, MWO does a piss poor job of simulating such factors, and has gone the more arcade route.


Also, Butterbee is easy to beat (unless it gets lucky). It runs hot.

Addendum: I forgot to mention that we likely have better fire control systems irl than they apparently use in BT.

Edited by Mirumoto Izanami, 14 January 2015 - 09:37 AM.