472 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Going to repeat this because that tends to move ideas to PGI.

Adding or moving clan factions isn't going to work because of population issues. Even if the population increases ten fold we will still have the same issue -

Liao is pinned between the two factions with the largest loyalist player bases in the game. They have only two fronts and are 2 factions away from a clan border. This makes them hugely unappealing for the big merc units - they have 2 world that can get a units name on them total. They have 2 fronts and only 1 is active. It's bad now and even worse to look at for years to come with no real chance to change it.

Liao needs to be able to attack any clan world along the is/clan border and keep it if they are the majority of wins. You give Liao this unique perk to offset their unique problems and you make them a viable choice for big units.

[Paramemetic]

StillRadioactive, on 04 January 2015 - 03:06 AM, said:

When Davion can't put up players to defend its worlds, they get ghost dropped to 100%. It's just a thing that happens, and it happens regularly. We play around it.

Yes, they get ghost dropped to 100%, and then NOTHING CHANGES because only the NA games at NA peak time actually matter. You have to win 12 or 18 instead of 6, and so what? You have the numbers to ghost drop and to never, ever have to worry about losing pips after NA peak time starts.

Yes, Eurozone can flip your planets to 100% during Euro peak, and you don't defend, but then . . . nothing happens, because planets only flip at the end of NA peak time.

Euros do a lot of work, none of that work matters at all because Dav NA peak is bigger by orders of magnitude than Liao NA peak, so Davs win at the end of the day.

You're complaining about the exact same thing we're complaining about, except you're complaining about winning because of it.

[MischiefSC]

We actually have a lot of euro groups too. I've dropped with a couple that are exceptional. My personal play times swing through all 24 hours.

I agree there needs to be a change to make all matches matter. It's annoying as my most consistent play time is about an hour after ceasefire - which is the most useless possible currently.

That doesn't fix the underlying issue of population disparity. Populations will ebb and flow; the advantages of that will move with it. I do not think that needs inherently fixed. Liao however has unique issues. Because of its map position it will never attract most the big 100-300 player units, even most mid sized groups will pass on it because of that as well. This leaves Liao short regardless of overall game population.

That is why I say sake Liao the wildcard faction - let them butt into the clan fronts. This gives them a unique appeal to offset their otherwise bad location. Liao has no choice but to fight Davion currently. We know this and as such know we need to fight you every chance we get because we know you have to fight us sooner or later.

Putting Liao up as a wildcard faction benefits everyone. It adds a bit of unpredictability to the clan border, it gives Liao something big to draw big units, it gives Liao a direction to expand that isn't Davion and as such a reason for Davion to trust a ceasefire.

Any solution that doesn't give Liao new fronts to expand into is, eventually, doomed. Not because of anything players do or don't do but bad map position. That sucks and is a design issue that needs fixed.

[StillRadioactive]

MischiefSC, on 04 January 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

We actually have a lot of euro groups too. I've dropped with a couple that are exceptional. My personal play times swing through all 24 hours.

I agree there needs to be a change to make all matches matter. It's annoying as my most consistent play time is about an hour after ceasefire - which is the most useless possible currently.

That doesn't fix the underlying issue of population disparity. Populations will ebb and flow; the advantages of that will move with it. I do not think that needs inherently fixed. Liao however has unique issues. Because of its map position it will never attract most the big 100-300 player units, even most mid sized groups will pass on it because of that as well. This leaves Liao short regardless of overall game population.

That is why I say sake Liao the wildcard faction - let them butt into the clan fronts. This gives them a unique appeal to offset their otherwise bad location. Liao has no choice but to fight Davion currently. We know this and as such know we need to fight you every chance we get because we know you have to fight us sooner or later.

Putting Liao up as a wildcard faction benefits everyone. It adds a bit of unpredictability to the clan border, it gives Liao something big to draw big units, it gives Liao a direction to expand that isn't Davion and as such a reason for Davion to trust a ceasefire.

Any solution that doesn't give Liao new fronts to expand into is, eventually, doomed. Not because of anything players do or don't do but bad map position. That sucks and is a design issue that needs fixed.

Frankly, I think just changing Liao's planet picking algorithm to attack toward Terra like the Clans do will go a long way. If Liao starts expanding coreward, they'll eventually touch LC and DC.

As it is, even if they win every planet for months straight, they'll just keep eating farther and farther into FS... FS... FS... more FS... some more FS... and oh look, holy **** it's more FS.

[MischiefSC]

StillRadioactive, on 04 January 2015 - 09:21 PM, said:

Frankly, I think just changing Liao's planet picking algorithm to attack toward Terra like the Clans do will go a long way. If Liao starts expanding coreward, they'll eventually touch LC and DC.

As it is, even if they win every planet for months straight, they'll just keep eating farther and farther into FS... FS... FS... more FS... some more FS... and oh look, holy **** it's more FS.

Look at the map though. They'd have to cut through a good swath of Federation, at which point they've cut Marik off from Davion space and have gotten...

a front with Kurita, or Steiner. Yay?

It's a ****** map position and it creates a situation where Davion *has* to attack Liao and try to wipe them out - because we know that the only direction Liao has to push is right into us. Sooner or later they are going to attack Davion, because, well, what else are they going to do, attack Marik?

Marik is like Liaos only friend. Doesn't matter if he has poor hygiene, if his girlfriend is a total ***** and he never ever EVER pays for the pizza ('oh, I'll pay for the whole thing next time, just don't have any money this time.' That *******) he's the only friend you've got and the only other nerd in the small town you live in, everyone else is cornfed rednecks. Liao can't attack Marik. It would just be... wrong.

Let them play wildcard. It'll be a draw (even if just temporary) to merc units of every single size. It gives them directions to push that are not Davion and thus (along with the potential of heavy hitters joining Liao from time to time) justification for Davion to make and hold ceasefires with Liao.

The solution to the Liao Problem needs to be one that lasts for years, that addresses apathy, boredom, perceptions and misconceptions based on their size of the map, all that. They are in a uniquely bad situation that needs a uniquely creative solution. Changes in pay won't do it. Not long term, not permanently. Even with their gains today you can't have a whole faction that only wins because everyone else ganged up on their one viable enemy.

[Alexander Steel]

I'm going to ask this because I think it needs to be asked and really considered. If you drop a CW type game on players with the tag line of "you can change the fate of the Inner Sphere" don't you sort of have to be willing to accept that changing the fate of the IS could result in a power being destroyed? If you have 10 factions and only 1% of the population wants to play Faction X isn't it alright to have faction X get destroyed if that's what the fights say happens?

[Faith McCarron]

Alexander Steel, on 05 January 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

I'm going to ask this because I think it needs to be asked and really considered. If you drop a CW type game on players with the tag line of "you can change the fate of the Inner Sphere" don't you sort of have to be willing to accept that changing the fate of the IS could result in a power being destroyed? If you have 10 factions and only 1% of the population wants to play Faction X isn't it alright to have faction X get destroyed if that's what the fights say happens?

No. That is all.

[Donas]

Uthael, on 03 January 2015 - 03:20 AM, said:

Now, to the point; when a "ghost drop" happens... How about buffing the defenses of invasion maps to the point where 30 minutes of game time would actually be a challenge? I mean; put long-range weaponry (maybe even Clan) on exposed turrets so they can retaliate from being sniped, increase their health and put streaks and medium lasers on turrets protected with terrain. Also, make sure there aren't "optimal paths with minimum turrets".
There should be equal amount of challenge and reward in both; normal and ghost drops.

Pretty cool idea.

If they were Calliope Turrets, complete with 2xLLas, 2xMPLas, and 4xLRM5's, they'd be pretty nasty. PGI could even set them up to run off the generators in zones so hitting a generator would shut the few Calliopes near them down as well (like the wall mounted turrets currently do).

Lights would have a lot more difficulty zerg rushing through. Especially with BAP on the turrets.

[Alexander Steel]

Faith McCarron, on 05 January 2015 - 05:48 AM, said:

No. That is all.

Ah you want a game that no matter how bad one team plays it can never "lose".

[Faith McCarron]

Alexander Steel, on 05 January 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

Ah you want a game that no matter how bad one team plays it can never "lose".

Please explain to me how winning a great majority of one's matches is playing bad?

[MischiefSC]

Alexander Steel, on 05 January 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

I'm going to ask this because I think it needs to be asked and really considered. If you drop a CW type game on players with the tag line of "you can change the fate of the Inner Sphere" don't you sort of have to be willing to accept that changing the fate of the IS could result in a power being destroyed? If you have 10 factions and only 1% of the population wants to play Faction X isn't it alright to have faction X get destroyed if that's what the fights say happens?

In concept I agree with you. I do NOT want a system where nobody is allowed to lose.

Having chewed on it though that's not what this is about, not with Liao. The problem there is map position - you've got a game map designed so that 1 faction is totally screwed in the long term. They have no viable avenues to advance, their very starting map position makes them completely unappealing to any big groups. This isn't a matter of 1 faction being the first to go down; someone's got to be first. It's a matter of bad map design putting 1 faction in an untenable position.

Someone with twitter access needs to get this idea to PGI. Liao needs a wildcard option; attack and hold worlds on the Clan front. Can the current Liao population actually take worlds and hold them from a Clan faction? Absolutely not. Would the potential opportunity draw a lot of mercs to Liao? Oh absolutely yes. It solves the issue of them having only 1 border, Davion, which leaves Davion having no choice but trying to wipe out Liao because that's the only relationship those two CAN have - Liao has nowhere else to go and Davion knows it.

This isn't about saying nobody can lose. This is saying that the map layout sucks and needs a unique solution for House Liao.

Edited by MischiefSC, 05 January 2015 - 10:19 AM.

[Tiger 6]

Coming slightly back on to topic...

I seem to recall that at the launch party it was said that the idea was to allow mercs to perform 'deep raids', and faction regular forces to fight over a 'front' - which I understand to mean more than the single world available now.

With this in mind, and Mischief's point about there not being much to do if you are with Liao, how could/would this improve participation?

As a suggestion:
Option 1: Could PGI fix the current problem by allowing Liao to attack more worlds than Davion? More opportunities to get a fast match could encourage more mercs to come to Liao, and spread the Davion hoards a little more thinly?
(I read of one merc unit who left Davion because they couldn't get a match either, btw)

Option 2: Allow Liao to conduct raid's played out on the non-invasion maps, which reward the same as the invasion mode game, but don't allow the world to be taken. These missions become available as and when the queues for the contested planet reach a certain length - again, provides more incentives for merc corps and solo players to stick with Liao by getting them a game faster?

Thoughts?

[Alexander Steel]

I liked the idea of calling in the reserve clans, changing the invasion lanes, and giving every IS house a clan of their own to fight.

Faith McCarron, on 05 January 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

Please explain to me how winning a great majority of one's matches is playing bad?

1. There is no proof that Liao as a whole wins a great majority of their matches.

2. Losing planets night after night is playing bad.

3. Your comment sort of reminds me of a Basketball player who shoots 7-7 for the night and wonders how it's possible his team lost. Or a Hockey player who has a +2 +/- rating and is shocked to find out his team lost.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 05 January 2015 - 11:19 AM.

[Alexander Steel]

MischiefSC, on 05 January 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

In concept I agree with you. I do NOT want a system where nobody is allowed to lose.

Having chewed on it though that's not what this is about, not with Liao. The problem there is map position - you've got a game map designed so that 1 faction is totally screwed in the long term. They have no viable avenues to advance, their very starting map position makes them completely unappealing to any big groups. This isn't a matter of 1 faction being the first to go down; someone's got to be first. It's a matter of bad map design putting 1 faction in an untenable position.

Someone with twitter access needs to get this idea to PGI. Liao needs a wildcard option; attack and hold worlds on the Clan front. Can the current Liao population actually take worlds and hold them from a Clan faction? Absolutely not. Would the potential opportunity draw a lot of mercs to Liao? Oh absolutely yes. It solves the issue of them having only 1 border, Davion, which leaves Davion having no choice but trying to wipe out Liao because that's the only relationship those two CAN have - Liao has nowhere else to go and Davion knows it.

This isn't about saying nobody can lose. This is saying that the map layout sucks and needs a unique solution for House Liao.

Liao has 2 attack paths, Marik and Liao. The fact that they have chosen to completely ignore one of them is their fault.

All that said, it's not like you had to pick Liao or that every placement on the map is equal. Some factions most certainly do have better starting points, this is not a game where every house starts equal.

Heck the Smoke Jags are in the same place. They only have two ways to expand. Kurita and Ghost Bear. They are chewing up Kurita pretty well.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 05 January 2015 - 11:27 AM.

[BlakeAteIt]

Tiger 6, on 05 January 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

Option 2: Allow Liao to conduct raid's played out on the non-invasion maps, which reward the same as the invasion mode game, but don't allow the world to be taken. These missions become available as and when the queues for the contested planet reach a certain length - again, provides more incentives for merc corps and solo players to stick with Liao by getting them a game faster?

Honestly, this might be the overall solution to help with CW population. Let EVERYONE have something like this. Might win back some people who tried CW during the stocking stuffer event, too. Maybe even allow them to effect planet ownership, or effect a second planet behind the front. Gold Star!

Alexander Steel, on 05 January 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

I liked the idea of calling in the reserve clans, changing the invasion lanes, and giving every IS house a clan of their own to fight.

1. There is no proof that Liao as a whole wins a great majority of their matches.

2. Losing planets night after night is playing bad.

A map change, with invasion lane change would do the game a lot of good, but really piss off the same people who are angry that the LC and FS aren't the FC. Overall, a plus.

1. True. A lot of people who post on the forums are biased by being the same type of people who play in full groups, who DO tend to win most drops. Very little pug representation in this area of the forum.

2. A lot of our teams are on the other side of the clock, unfortunately. Our three(?) NA units can only do so much.

Alexander Steel, on 05 January 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

Liao has 2 attack paths, Marik and Liao. The fact that they have chosen to completely ignore one of them is their fault.

We COULD open up a second front, when we lack the NA pop to hold one, I suppose...

Part of the problem with the way the map is laid out is that the FedCom is basically a foregone conclusion due to lore nerds. This leaves Purple and Green in the Armpit of the IS, where we can ally against the FedCom, and lose slowly, or one of us can ally WITH the FedCom, and eat the other, or we can fight eachother and the the FedCom and lose our all worlds quickly. Add this to a particularly low population, and welp.

[Paramemetic]

Increasing the number of attack options isn't going to be a significant improvement with Liao numbers still low. After all, Liao can't put together enough people to handle its one front, adding another front is not helpful, as that just means there will be two fronts Liao can't manage. Letting Liao attack other places without opening a front just means Liao will attack that place and get outnumbered there, while still losing a planet a night to hordes of Davs.

[Alexander Steel]

The problem comes down to that the Liao faction is just not very popular. PGI can only do so much to make it so. More money, more LP, but in the end if the players don't want to play for them the faction is going to die off and it probably should. Heck, I'm a big fan of the St Ives, and would have liked to have had them included in CW, but I realize that they probably would have been crushed by now, either by the FS or the CC or more likely both.

FRR has the same problem in that lore wise and map wise they are in a horri-bad place. However they seem to be punching the Ghost Bears pretty hard in the face over the last several nights so they might survive. Steiner looks like they are interested in nibbling them down some so that might not last long.

The fact is looking at the map of the IS and it's not designed for a well balanced Strat Level Game. Houses have lastly different sizes, different appeals, and are in vastly different tactical situations. Without completely destroying that, the devs did the next best thing... giving people the ability to move to different sides so they don't always have to be in a bad or good situation.

[Alexander Steel]

BlakeAteIt, on 05 January 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

Part of the problem with the way the map is laid out is that the FedCom is basically a foregone conclusion due to lore nerds. This leaves Purple and Green in the Armpit of the IS, where we can ally against the FedCom, and lose slowly, or one of us can ally WITH the FedCom, and eat the other, or we can fight eachother and the the FedCom and lose our all worlds quickly. Add this to a particularly low population, and welp.

Did you not know what the IS looked like when you picked your faction? That said it's not like this is real life, changing factions because the reality of "Man we are in a horrible place" is much different than the appeal of "We shall overcome all of our disadvantages and bring the greater powers to their KNEES!" is easy.

In 3050, without a real Fed Com and Davion free to do whatever it likes during the clan invasion... Liao is in a horrible position.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 05 January 2015 - 11:51 AM.

[BlakeAteIt]

Eh, I knew Liao was one of the hardmodes, map battle wise. And I don't disagree on the point that a faction should be able to lose. Especially in Beta, where the current board state is less important than figuring out what's wrong with the game as it stands.

In all reality, I don't think it would be so bad if overall CW participation was higher. We did pretty well for the first week or so.

[Grynos]

From a purely gameplay standpoint. They need to spread the clans out so that clans can have an impact on all IS faction territories. Liao as it stands now, has to depend on other factions in order to challenge for planets. Yes because of the treaty with Marik we have one less planet to attack. But if not for that treaty Liao would be half the size it currently is. Mischief's constant hounding of letting Liao be a "wildcard" faction, while interesting would not work in the long run. Now putting a clan on the Davion/Liao border might. You could also put one on the Marik/Steiner border, keep one of the larger ones up at the triangle with Steiner,FRR,Kurita, and put the last on on Kurita/Davion border. This setup would make it do that every IS faction had to worry about a Clan.

We all know there are some major gameplay issues, I think we can all agree on that. The way attacking/defending/counter attacking is currently setup is causing issues. The fact that a win does not change a territory on defense is wrong. It creates a gameplay situation where "stalling for time" is rewarded. The advantages need to be with defending planets, it should be harder to take a planet then defend one, and as it currently stands that is not the case.

Now as far as winning vs losing goes. There should always be the chance to lose, even with the bigger, more populated factions/clans. The key for CW is to make it more of a risk/reward setup for all the factions/clans. If Davion never has to worry about a clan invading their planets , why should they care. Now I know what some might say, well Davion already has four fronts to fight on (3 if you go by Steiner/Davion treaty) but seeing as they are a larger, more populated faction wouldn't it make sense to actually put a clan in there to stir up the pot so to say?? Putting a clan in Liao border could also generate more of a draw to other Merc units.