472 replies to this topic

[Driftwoood]

So, in case Russ or anyone at PGI thinks ghost drops are not an issue during peak hours, I'll just snap a pic each night I'm around and add it here to show how Liao is doing on the Davion border... all were taken in the last few hours before cease fire (you can see the time left if you look closely top left...

Dec 26? (can't remember exact date), Maladar:
We were winning the planet, but only had about 30 pilots in the last hour, so they reversed it with ghost drops...


Dec 30, Tantara and probably Maladar too:


Jan 1, Warlock:


Jan 2, Texlos:
Closer to cease fire, we put up 24-30 defenders, so they brought 44 attackers...


Jan 3, Necromo:


Jan 4, No Return:
This Sunday was an anomaly: we successfully defended No Return...
Throughout the evening, its was 3-4 Davion units vs 2-3 Liao units... this was surprising as the extra Davion unit should have resulted in ghost drops and/or greater attack/counterattack matches for Davion...
And we took a planet back from Davion, Texlos, which we lost a few days earlier...


Jan 5, No Return - 1.5hrs to ceasefire:
Repeat of previous night... We held No Return and took back Tallin...
Not sure how... with those numbers, should have been getting ghost dropped on both planets...
Davion says we ghost dropped Tallin earlier in the day... I dunno, wasn't around... not sure why they didn't ghost drop it back like they always do... Davion numbers very low compared to previous days, don't know why...


Jan 6, No Return:
Pic is right at ceasefire... Davion got 2 ghost drops and won 1 of the 2 actual matches... that took the planet from 33% to 53%, winning it...


Jan 7 - 11: Davion didn't have / bring many fighters to the Liao border... a few nights, there were no battles at prime time... no appreciable ghost dropping noticed... EXCEPT Jan 10 or 11? forget which and forgot to take a screen cap, but they had an extra unit (2 Dav vs 1 Liao) ghost dropping on our planet and took it...

Jan 12: Maladar & Beid
Davion brought 6+ unit vs Liao's 2-3 for both planets, so ghost dropped the crap out of both... notice the 2nd pic 3 minutes into ceasefire, they still had 4 units ghost dropping Maladar...



Jan 13, Mentasta & Maladar: Davion 6 units vs Liao 2 units


Jan 14, Beid & Teng:
Forgot to take a pic tonight... turnout was low for both sides, but Davion still had 3 units vs Liao's 1... so both planets ghost dropped relentlessly...

Jan 15, Tallin:
4 units ghost dropping... that's a 40 min wait just to get a ghost drop... I'm speechless...


Jan 16-17: There's a challenge going on, so very few people on CW...

Jan 18, Texlos: 2 hours to cease fire, getting ghost dropped with no defenders, looks like they'll take it... This is last day of the weekend challenge, so CW population is low...


Jan 22, Texlos:


Jan 25:
Didn't get a screen cap tonight, and forget the planet name... something like Kaf Heim?? 1hr from cease fire, Liao was attacking with 4-5 units vs Davion 2-3 defending... so pretty sure Liao was getting some ghost drops...

Edited by Driftwoood, 25 January 2015 - 12:26 AM.

[StillRadioactive]

Is this the thread where I post screencaps of planets racked up to 93-100% against us with nobody on them when I sign on during the day?

Seems like this is the thread for it.

[StillRadioactive]

Oh look. 0128 EST on 3 January, 2015. Elidere IV and Ohrenson being ghost dropped by Kurita and Marik respectively.

It's a part of the game. We deal with it.

[PadreGrimm]

StillRadioactive, on 02 January 2015 - 10:30 PM, said:

Oh look. 0128 EST on 3 January, 2015. Elidere IV and Ohrenson being ghost dropped by Kurita and Marik respectively.

It's a part of the game. We deal with it.

lol Sounds like my 12 year old. "Well she hit me first so I hit her back!" Davion logic at it's finest!

[MischiefSC]

If there is more of one side than the other, are you saying that they should just.... not have an advantage?

We lost 2 worlds today literally due to this. Nobody from Davion complained. In fact I called that this would happen (population shifts) weeks ago.

It's really simple. This isn't pug/group queue. It's not about having every match or conflict be neatly balanced and everyone getting a trophy because they showed up and tried. Sometimes some groups will have an advantage and they can, and will, exploit it to their benefit. Notice how in many of your screenshots Bruben and Malibu have significantly more defenders than attackers. Probably kept Bruben from flipping.

Now I'm all for changing how matches are decided to be an average over the day or a 20 hour cycle so it moves or whatever. To say however that having more people focused on an objective shouldn't provide some sort of an advantage is just flat out silly. Steiner closed 3 of their 5 fronts and benefited from it. Why? More people to focus in a smaller area. Davion lost a world today because Kurita inexplicably doesn't have an active front with CGB and simply ignored the CSJ border, focusing their whole faction pretty much on Davion - who also had about all of Mariks attention and Liao.

I'm not even sure what you're wanting. How Ghost Drops work has already been explained. 12 people more are getting something like 3 ghost drops an hour, more likely 2 and change averaged over time. In an hour that extra 20 people was 1 full 12man more. Likely equated to 2 ghost drops in the hour in question. It was not 24 people; it was not enough people to actually make a 2nd full team. Pugs come in and out all the time so unless it was a full dedicated 12man it likely cycled up and down.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. More numbers is an advantage. In fact it drives a lot of tactics at a faction for those of us with more than 1 active border. I get how for Liao it seems like a huge deal and it's possible that for Liao it is - 2 drops might make the difference on your one active front.

For the rest of us though it's not and in fact it is exactly what drives alliances, counter-alliances, ceasefires and coordinated unit commands. Identifying disparities in numbers and addressing them is functionally what makes CW more than just a mixed pug/group queue with a background map.

[Driftwoood]

Didn't bother reading your posts... I clearly stated the purpose of this thread at top... I'm sure you'll hijack it if you have nothing better to do...

[Scoops Kerensky]

MischiefSC, on 03 January 2015 - 01:33 AM, said:

If there is more of one side than the other, are you saying that they should just.... not have an advantage?

Yes.

[MischiefSC]

Socop, on 03 January 2015 - 02:24 AM, said:

Yes.

.....

So then no real tactics at a faction level. No point in alliances. Can we just put in Elo and a group/pug queue split?

Driftwoood, on 03 January 2015 - 02:18 AM, said:

Didn't bother reading your posts... I clearly stated the purpose of this thread at top... I'm sure you'll hijack it if you have nothing better to do...

So you are concerned that PGI doesn't have the stats on matches at different times?

Okay. Good thing you're screencapping that for them. There is no way the actual statistical data and modeling is going to be as useful and accurate as some anecdotal screencaps lacking the data of who actually won or lost those matches.

Also... again. If numbers don't have an advantage then there is no point to alliances or what factions anyone belongs to, nor actually faction-level strategy. Which is why there is CW and not a colored map that moves around based on pug/premade queue matches.

[Scoops Kerensky]

Real tactics and alliances? How is blobbing a real tactic or alliance? This isn't some open MMO world like eve, its a paper map in sharded off matches. There's no strategic depth to overwhelming smaller opponents with big numbers, nor is that a sustainable or fun model for all the smaller opponents. The big numbers aren't even fighting opponents, they're ghost capping while a fraction equal to smaller group gets to play the game.

It's just petty meta-politicking that leaves anyone not winning disgruntled and likely to take their ball and go home. This game doesn't have the population to support that model long term.

[MischiefSC]

Socop, on 03 January 2015 - 02:35 AM, said:

Real tactics and alliances? How is blobbing a real tactic or alliance? This isn't some open MMO world like eve, its a paper map in sharded off matches. There's no strategic depth to overwhelming smaller opponents with big numbers, nor is that a sustainable or fun model for all the smaller opponents. The big numbers aren't even fighting opponents, they're ghost capping while a fraction equal to smaller group gets to play the game.

It's just petty meta-politicking that leaves anyone not winning disgruntled and likely to take their ball and go home. This game doesn't have the population to support that model long term.

Except that populations move. It also is exactly why Alliances work - Kurita took a world from Davion today specifically because they coordinated with Marik and Liao to overwhelm the defenders. Your faction used that strategy effectively today and to great effect.

By your logic the only model that works is one where, what, everyone wins?

Anecdotal screencaps don't equate to 'getting decided by ghost drops'. 3% of matches are ghost drops. They don't happen on fully stacked worlds. Even without fully stacked worlds you're talking a difference of 2 or 3 matches an hour *at most*, assuming it's more than 12 player advantage of people grinding waits of 10-20 minutes without pugs dropping in and out, resetting the timer.

Smaller factions need bigger allies. An actual coordinated push from Marik/Kurita/Liao today totally turned the tables on Davion; we lost 2 worlds and gained 1. Steiner, on a steady losing streak, did a lot of politicing (and if you think the changes in factions for merc units was not a ton of politics you're crazy) and ended up with a population explosion that they exploited into 3 wins.

There is a big metagame going on, there are strategies in play and they're driving a lot of activity. Saying nobody gets to do anything that gives them an advantage because then someone else will lose and stop having fun.... well, the pug/premade queue is for that. There is no bigger conflict, no deeper strategy, no inter/intra faction strategies. You get matches that are as well balanced as available players/mechs allow and you generally don't need to worry about being put in a imbalanced situation.

How is blobbing a tactic or alliance... how about the Kurita ceasefire with FRR? It closed a front for you guys. Same with the (much maligned) Steiner ceasefire with the Wolves, and with Davion. Closes fronts to allow concentration of forces.

We already have an environment for balanced matches where there is no bigger metagame or strategy. It's what we've had for years. I admit I just don't get the desire to make CW just like that but with a map. That actually makes even having the map meaningless.

[Scoops Kerensky]

Or, y'know, people could win matches against enemy players to capture planets. That'd be a cool model.

[Uthael]

I'm now in Liao faction, roleplaying as a merc loyal to Liao and Kurita (no choice being Merc Corps as a fac ). In the lore, just like in this game, Liao is low on mechwarrior numbers. But it makes up for it with strong infantry and other vehicles of war. In this game, it can't. I'd very much like to be able to pilot a VTOL or head into battle in a Battlesuit (like in MW:LL), making sure the faction can afford a bigger mech for another pilot.

Even with numbers advantage, there should be "choke points" in faction territory, some planets that need to be captured in order to jump deeper into a faction's territory. Ghost drops shouldn't even happen there.

Now, to the point; when a "ghost drop" happens... How about buffing the defenses of invasion maps to the point where 30 minutes of game time would actually be a challenge? I mean; put long-range weaponry (maybe even Clan) on exposed turrets so they can retaliate from being sniped, increase their health and put streaks and medium lasers on turrets protected with terrain. Also, make sure there aren't "optimal paths with minimum turrets".
There should be equal amount of challenge and reward in both; normal and ghost drops.

[Alexander Steel]

If you are going via lore, Liao often battled 3 to 1 odds when the Davions invaded them in the 4th succession war. They would have experienced similar odds during the War of 3057 if most of the front line Davion units weren't up at the clan front fighting for the Steiner Half of the FedCom... which doesn't exist in this game, so all the units are at home. Liao also had problems fielding Assault mechs and even had very few heavy mechs. As for making up for it in infantry and tanks, wrong again. Davion's used the RCT which was 1 Mech Regiment supported by 4 - 5 regiments of tanks and infantry.

Having number advantages would show up on the battle field as Liao drops 12 people into a match, Davion drops 36. People would have an even bigger hissy fit about that then they do "ghost drops".

Quote

Many units within the AFFS are Regimental Combat Teams (RCTs). Front-line RCTs are composed of one 'Mech regiment, three of vehicles, a battalion of artillery, five regiments of infantry, and a fighter wing. Second-line, or militia, RCTs are usually composed of smaller numbers of these supporting forces. Front-line RCTs are usually commanded by a Marshal.

http://www.sarna.net..._Federated_Suns

Edited by Alexander Steel, 03 January 2015 - 05:08 AM.

[Uthael]

Alexander Steel, on 03 January 2015 - 05:04 AM, said:

...

How come they're able to hold their ground while being outnumbered 3 to 1? You may then say "strategy". Strategy may apply in EVE Online but not here. It's only tactics. And you can't win 1v3 in a fair match. Therefore, Invasion gamemode needs rebalancing to compensate for numbers dis/advantages. I don't think ghost drops are fun for either side. Useful for gaining territory, maybe. But that's not playing the game as it should be played.

[Faith McCarron]

I'm curious, Davions, as to why in your opinion, Liao loses planets virtually every time? You obviously dismiss ghost drops as insignificant, so why does Liao always lose? Even you guys can't be THAT pompous as to think that you are orders of magnitude better than Liao at the game, so what is it?

And I'm not interested in you just saying that you should always win because you have more people, that's the equivalent of "cuz 'murica" as an argument. I want to know why you guys actually think you win planets every single time.

[BlakeAteIt]

Driftwoood, on 02 January 2015 - 09:23 PM, said:

Ghost Drops!

The trouble is, other than increasing rewards again, what do you want PGI to do? The mechanic HAS to be in the game, or a faction could deny opponents planets simply by not defending them. It would be cool if they made ghost drops less valuable than other victories, but the token system they have set up precludes that. Remember, PGI's been out of the office for the holidays, so nothing major COULD have changed by now. Fortunately, it's a beta, so things may change yet. It would be more of a problem if taking/losing planets did anything other than changing the map.

It's annoying, but it would be unreasonable to expect people not to take the easy wins. (Even if they are boring, they are still more fun than not playing)

The way the board is set up, the more northerly IS factions NEED more people. They have more fronts. The fact that we don't have enough to man our one front is more an issue of the game still having a small playerbase than anything else. It also doesn't help that a lot of our players are on the other side of the clock, functionally useless for CW.

We really need multiple ceasefire windows or for it to not be a 24 hour system. Or still have one window per day, just have that time change every day.

It would also help if when you go to pick a faction, you would be given the current pay information, and maybe a text blurb or short video extolling that faction's virtues. Obviously, Liao's would be the longest.

All that said, "LOL turret drops!" is still a fun way to poke at Davion, and will continue to be for some time.

[Markoxford]

These excuses do get very very old

Let's be very honest here - uncontested territory is the dream of every commander. Given the option to fight against an equal opponent or to drop on to undefended land there is not a decision to be made. You can not defend so every unit on your boarders are happily taking your planets and rightfully so, (think Europe during the start of WW2 for a very tenuous analogy )

PGI will look at the logs and, hopefully, continue to give us real numbers, (like the 2-3% from before), after their well deserved holiday break. They will probably make adjustments like rotating the cease fire window, changing the plant win condition to so many wins over a set period rather than the defined better than 50% at time X, increasing rewards for the minor houses, etc... Until then, rest easy in the knowledge that you will get it all back by the very artificial means of a map reset.

TL;DR - really it's not that long poppet

Edited by Markoxford, 03 January 2015 - 06:19 AM.

[Alexander Steel]

Uthael, on 03 January 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

How come they're able to hold their ground while being outnumbered 3 to 1? You may then say "strategy". Strategy may apply in EVE Online but not here. It's only tactics. And you can't win 1v3 in a fair match. Therefore, Invasion gamemode needs rebalancing to compensate for numbers dis/advantages. I don't think ghost drops are fun for either side. Useful for gaining territory, maybe. But that's not playing the game as it should be played.

The answer was they weren't. When outnumbered 3 to 1 House Liao lost about half of it's territory to the FS. When the numbers shifted to favor Liao in the war of 3057 it was the Fed Suns that took the drubbing. 3 to 1 odds = you lose.

[Abivard]

Faith McCarron, on 03 January 2015 - 05:51 AM, said:

I'm curious, Davions, as to why in your opinion, Liao loses planets virtually every time? You obviously dismiss ghost drops as insignificant, so why does Liao always lose? Even you guys can't be THAT pompous as to think that you are orders of magnitude better than Liao at the game, so what is it?

And I'm not interested in you just saying that you should always win because you have more people, that's the equivalent of "cuz 'murica" as an argument. I want to know why you guys actually think you win planets every single time.

This is how Davion does it.

http://mwomercs.com/...-their-counter/

[LordKnightFandragon]

If liao keeps it up, they are going to have no planets left at all inside of a few weeks.