65 replies to this topic

[StillRadioactive]

Mystere, on 03 January 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

As I said in other threads, just have more maps, some that are better for the attacker. How much that would be I leave to PGI.

PGI can try to balance the two maps ad infinitum, or -- for variety -- just have other maps with different conditions.

I believe they've said that the next map will drop on the 20th. It'll look similar to Canyon Network.

[Wildstreak]

JF so far was the only faction I saw that did this.
I have noticed though other players wanting to rush out the gates on Boreal when on Defense.
I chalk it up to player frustration at the map design.

Attackers:
Step 1 - Kill gate turrets, easy.
Step 2 - Kill gate gens, not so easy. you have no choice but to go up ramps where camped Defenders expect you and easily shoot you just to get a shot off. Compare that to Sulforous where there are spots at lower ground level you can shoot gens exposing yourself less and not being so predictable.

Boreal is horrible, I prefer Sulforous either way.
I wish I could talk them into replacing Boreal with Alpine. THAT would be interesting.

Edited by Wildstreak, 03 January 2015 - 09:49 PM.

[Anjian]

Whoever designed this map, literally, should be ashamed of himself.

[Andi Nagasia]

what would be cool,...
if they added a 3rd under ground gate and tunnel,
between the 2 other gates, more options and ways to play,

[Pat Kell]

Again I ask, what sane builder would create a defensive position that didn't allow the defenders to sally forth when it was tactically advantageous? There is nothing wrong with that map. Being anattacker is very difficult but doable if you work together. Can't tell you how many times I have asked at the start of a match if we are killing or rushing. When the vote comes back as kill, that's what we try and the moment something goes wrong, 2-3 people rush the base. The problem isn't the map, it's peoples inability to stick with a plan that they committed to and end up just throwing away mechs. Going against an organized group is tough enough without people wanting to change the plan half way through the match and not getting anything really accomplished.

[Violent Nick]

Pat Kell, on 03 January 2015 - 10:22 PM, said:

Again I ask, what sane builder would create a defensive position that didn't allow the defenders to sally forth when it was tactically advantageous? There is nothing wrong with that map. Being anattacker is very difficult but doable if you work together. Can't tell you how many times I have asked at the start of a match if we are killing or rushing. When the vote comes back as kill, that's what we try and the moment something goes wrong, 2-3 people rush the base. The problem isn't the map, it's peoples inability to stick with a plan that they committed to and end up just throwing away mechs. Going against an organized group is tough enough without people wanting to change the plan half way through the match and not getting anything really accomplished.

To be fair, if you're the attackers against enemy snipers on Boreal, you can just make strafing runs with your faster mechs to kill the gate gens, which if done in groups will result in minor loss of life. Thing is, Pugs will not be able to coordinate this for obvious reasons. Partly, this is the players' fault, but also, Boreal does need a BIT of tweaking.

[StillRadioactive]

I think the more broken map is Sulfurous, since it favors the attackers... when the attackers have absolutely no penalty for failure.

One side has nothing to lose, so the map should err on the side of caution and favor the ones who actually have a territory on the line.

[Pat Kell]

I agree that it's more difficult to open the gates on Boreal but I guess my question is why are people mad that defenders can get out the gates. Every defensive structure of every kind has built in methods of allowing the defenders out while trying to keep the attackers out.

[StillRadioactive]

Pat Kell, on 04 January 2015 - 02:09 AM, said:

I agree that it's more difficult to open the gates on Boreal but I guess my question is why are people mad that defenders can get out the gates. Every defensive structure of every kind has built in methods of allowing the defenders out while trying to keep the attackers out.

Not even hard to open the gates if the whole team understands that 'mechs are expendable. It only gets difficult when people insist on timid poking.

Edited by StillRadioactive, 04 January 2015 - 02:18 AM.

[Pat Kell]

I agree that it's not difficult to open the gate, I was pointing out that Boreal is more difficult than the hot planet. only because it's much easier to set up firing lines to defend on Boreal. You are correct though, if everyone would just run up, take 1 alpha on the generator, the gate would be open. But there's always those few who want to shoot the enemy mechs first...silly pilots

[Allen Ward]

It is hilarious that the defenders can not open the gates at will (I never tried shooting the generators as a defender, does it work?). It is hilarious that the attackers choose a landing zone that lies in the direct fire line of the defender, has no cover at all and fly in their respawns ONE AT A TIME. The whole concept of attacking base is broken. Attacking a fortification with equal strength in numbers is dumb. Beef up the turrets, make the base larger and reduce number of defender respawns. Give attackers effective artillery/air support, do something that makes this look like a real attack mode.

Pat Kell, on 04 January 2015 - 02:34 AM, said:

I agree that it's not difficult to open the gate, I was pointing out that Boreal is more difficult than the hot planet. only because it's much easier to set up firing lines to defend on Boreal. You are correct though, if everyone would just run up, take 1 alpha on the generator, the gate would be open. But there's always those few who want to shoot the enemy mechs first...silly pilots

You could also simply "spend" 1-2 Lights with JJs. Just be fast enough and don't allow the defenders to settle the mountain with Storm Crows. One Spider over the gate can do the job, the rest of your first wave will remain unharmed for the push. But finding able volunteers is hard in PUG CW.

[Allen Ward]

StillRadioactive, on 04 January 2015 - 01:48 AM, said:

I think the more broken map is Sulfurous, since it favors the attackers... when the attackers have absolutely no penalty for failure.

One side has nothing to lose, so the map should err on the side of caution and favor the ones who actually have a territory on the line.

Recon is key here. If defenders cuddle around the gun, they are lost. Send fast mechs to all gates (at least 1 at all times). Communicate attacking forces strengths, team can respond accordingly. After gates stand open and a wave has been repelled, send out fast and damaged mechs as spotters. The farther out they get to communicate incoming forces the better. Yes, they get killed, so what? I always see people hit K while standing in the base, doing nothing. They could make much better use of their mech. Spoiling the attackers plans ist what works best on this map.

[Davegt27]

A lot of people probably did not believe me when I said the Clans would jump the gate and proceed to kill all the IS Mechs

[Mystere]

Violent Nick, on 04 January 2015 - 12:30 AM, said:

To be fair, if you're the attackers against enemy snipers on Boreal, you can just make strafing runs with your faster mechs to kill the gate gens, which if done in groups will result in minor loss of life. Thing is, Pugs will not be able to coordinate this for obvious reasons. Partly, this is the players' fault, but also, Boreal does need a BIT of tweaking.

I've been instructing PUGs how to "run and gun" the gates. But, some players really just don't want their Mechs scratched. Obviously, these are the very same folks that stall the charge though an opened gate. Sigh!

[Mystere]

Anjian, on 03 January 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

Whoever designed this map, literally, should be ashamed of himself.

Why? It's a highly advantageous map for defenders -- which a defensive position is supposed to be.

The only issue I have with that gate is the straight firing line from the base to attacker drop points. But then again that's a defender's advantage -- the terrain was probably "selected" precisely for that purpose. So I'm not going to argue against it.

[Lily from animove]

dropships were supposed to prevent this, which they obviously don't

[Willard Phule]

Pat Kell, on 04 January 2015 - 02:09 AM, said:

I agree that it's more difficult to open the gates on Boreal but I guess my question is why are people mad that defenders can get out the gates. Every defensive structure of every kind has built in methods of allowing the defenders out while trying to keep the attackers out.

If I had to make an educated guess, going from the majority of the complaints and from what I've seen playing on pug teams, most of the outrage seems to stem from a team that was disorganized, had no communication and were just standing around, waiting to be harvested.

For some reason, they seem offended that the other team got tired of waiting for them to come in and went out to them as opposed to being upset at their own lack of coordination and ability to accomplish the mission.

Let's face it....if you're on offense and you've got your entire group together at a gate that's open, but noone will commit to doing their job, you're doing it wrong and probably need to be shown the error of your decision making process.

[Stealth Fox]

Tainen, on 03 January 2015 - 12:08 AM, said:

thanks for the useless reply, Aodh.
In a PUG, you don't have that choice sometimes.

Don't ..pug? ..maybe?

Tordin, on 03 January 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

Encountered this phenomena as well, bunch of Novas trainwrecking the laid out tactics we had in store

Finally someone finds a use for that mech.

Aethon, on 03 January 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

They literally exhausted most of their mechs trying to spawncamp us, and it backfired in a big way.

So, do not despair if your targets come out to greet you; smile, stay behind the drop zone, and butcher them.

The almighty Dropship CAS, ..saved AND fried my arse more than a few times. its a great shield and on Boreal they can hit attackers not far from the two cannons by the gate.

Starwulfe, on 03 January 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

It's a valid tactic. (unless PGI decides to change it)
What military just sits at their base and waits for the enemy to invade when they know it's coming?

With minimal effort the tactic can be overcome. Communicate with your team.

If the enemy is at your base, you're already in a bad position.. It was imperative in Afghanistan to find the enemy strong holds and take it to them.. not let them hit us at our bases.


Hmm.. seems like the best way to fix this is to stop pugging. Shoot, Unless I am willing to just hand over a match or two in playing I don't even drop unless I got 2 or three of my mates on in team speak

There are so many groups for IS to join that do not require anything other then being good natured and yet people STILL complain and drop solo.. and get mad when a Team Speak team rolls them..

Davegt27, on 04 January 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

A lot of people probably did not believe me when I said the Clans would jump the gate and proceed to kill all the IS Mechs

yes.. those dirty clans and their fragile armored, hot running mechs where the ones that DO have good enough JJs have to limit their fire power even MORE to do so ..

I mean its not like the IS has several jump jet mechs... oh wait..

[Wildstreak]

Mystere, on 04 January 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

Why? It's a highly advantageous map for defenders -- which a defensive position is supposed to be.

The only issue I have with that gate is the straight firing line from the base to attacker drop points. But then again that's a defender's advantage -- the terrain was probably "selected" precisely for that purpose. So I'm not going to argue against it.

That straight line advantage can be negated by how the attacker opens gates. Once on a PUG, I suggested leaving one gate closed until we absolutely needed it, reason is on the attack you move up the closed gate's lane to D4/E4 then use that pass to cross over to the open gate. Unless the Defenders come out, range advantage gone.

[Ax2Grind]

...I just want to understand the OP...your saying this map is broken because one of the slowest moving mechs in the game was able to get from its drop location to Alpha gate, up and over the gate, and then moved towards your teams drop location and slaughtered you there? I think you might need to re-title the OP...