49 replies to this topic

[Chuck Jager]

Slumu, on 03 January 2015 - 12:59 AM, said:

To make this even more horrid, once you are camping the alpha-dropoint, you can shoot the omega-gen from certain positions. Once that happens, the game is over. No chance of defending against that.

This is the way teams fixed Zerg rush. Bring most OP mechs and cap this point - now farm bills. You can not blame players for using the mechanics to their advantage, especially with actually making creds.

[Alik Kerensky]

Chuck YeaGurr, on 03 January 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

This is the way teams fixed Zerg rush. Bring most OP mechs and cap this point - now farm bills. You can not blame players for using the mechanics to their advantage, especially with actually making creds.

Yes you can blame them for being lazy and using an exploit to win instead of actually having to fight to win.

[Euphoric1RW]

Is spawn camping really that easy? Some make it sound like a cheat, the defenders have to be good enough to push through your forces to even get to the spawn, why prolong the game? If you are a better team and can crush it than why not finish it quicker?

[ItMightHaveBeen]

I dont give a **** about military strat I just quit the map after first death no point fighting on a broken map

[HARDKOR]

Vance Rezak, on 03 January 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

Is spawn camping really that easy? Some make it sound like a cheat, the defenders have to be good enough to push through your forces to even get to the spawn, why prolong the game? If you are a better team and can crush it than why not finish it quicker?

It must be hard, because I've never been on the receiving end. All sulpher fights I have defended on, we never let them set up camp. One or two got the hill, but they were cleared out quickly, as we know that letting them have the hills is suicide.

Edited by HARDKOR, 06 March 2015 - 06:32 AM.

[Nainko]

We need better MAP Design, where the landing zones are not in the middle of the fighting zone and protected from direct fire.

This is something PGI made very good on Hellbore but very very bad on Sulfur, on Boreal it is not good, too.

[Triordinant]

I realize how fortunate I am because I never have to worry about spawncamping; or having to fight nothing but turrets; or waiting 10 to 30 minutes for a match; or that only the last few hours before a ceasefire matter. Public solo-only queue for the win (and faster earnings)!

[HARDKOR]

I made 8.5 million yesterday, all while drinking a liter of vodka. Earnings are fine.

[Tasker]

When enemy team spawncamp you, it is blessing. It mean that camped team is not competitive, and help to end match sooner. Unless you want blow out to be drag out?

[Necromantion]

God another one of these topics.... Ok so... here goes for the 100th time.

While camping a drop zone may be a problem the only semi-viable solution is to allow a dropping team to choose a drop location. I do agree that farming one sides drop kinda is lame because of the downtime for most mechs to start moving while you drop and hit the ground but its a viable strat due to how things are implemented right now. No so much of a problem as attackers but for defenders it can indeed be an issue

Why other ideas brought forward will not work or cause other problems:

1) Defenders having drop zones that are further back from the objectives:
This would result in increased travel time to get to your own objectives you need to defend when they are being attacked

2) Defenders having drop zones that are further back and that would have indestructible turrets and/or out of bounds areas for attackers:
This would result in the above as well as forced choke points where you would get farmed walking out of anyways. This would also result in people on defending teams taking tantrums and being able to drag out the game by sitting back in an unreachable area or utilizing the turrets to kill enemies because chances are if they are getting farmed the turrets do more damage than they can anyways

3) Increasing dropship damage/turret damage:
People would squirrel around in lights relying on turrets to do damage for them to help even out or win games which is honestly a lame way to make up for inadequate pilot skill/poor strategy and poor teamwork and honestly already happens at times with the current damage that they do which is no unsubstantial considering that they hit 100% of the time if you are in LOS of them and they arent on cooldown.

4) AC20 turrets:
In light of current LLas turrets that already have incredible accuracy and focus damaged components do you really think AC20 turrets that would be able to focus your opened ST with infallible accuracy is a good idea? Of course they could randomize it but once again why should PGI compensate for the aforementioned shortcomings I listed in 3 above? This is not Turretwarrior online.



I believe the only viable solution that would solve the problem without causing others is to allow players to choose 1 of 3 (or more if they were smart enough to implement that) prior to dropping.

Edited by Necromantion, 06 March 2015 - 08:28 AM.

[Murphy7]

Quote

We need better MAP Design, where the landing zones are not in the middle of the fighting zone and protected from direct fire.

This is something PGI made very good on Hellbore but very very bad on Sulfur, on Boreal it is not good, too

So good on Hella-boring that the Counterattack / Hold Territory is a race to a small kill advantage and retreat to defend the drop points which are almost impossibly difficult to dislodge group from once that starts. Much easier for the defenders to accomplish based on distances one needs to cover, but very much possible for either side.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Death Drow, on 02 January 2015 - 11:27 PM, said:

What you need is coordination. Attacking an LZ / Preventing a safe LZ are both common in actual warfare and fitting to the Mechwarrior lore.

Coordination alone can defend off from LZ camping.

And in actual warfare is an LZ is no longer safe there is a transition to a secondary position to stop wasting men and material dropping into a unsafe position.

Also this is a game - the mechanics need to allow for the entertainment of the users, not their frustration. As it stands being spawn camped is a more frustrating experience than entertaining one. Afterwards, personally, I feel cheated because it robs me of the opportunity to play the game.

[Dino Might]

Would be prone to some serious trolling, but I think it would be very cool if:

You have the Team Commander select 3 dropzones on the map within the available region. For defenders, this can be anywhere inside the gates. For attackers, this can be anywhere outside x meters of all gates.

These drop points are now fixed and may not be changed throughout the match, but any mech can pick any one of the three drop points for each respawn.

Still prone to drop camping, but at least now the other team has to do some analysis and figure out where to camp and when. It would add a new tactical element to organizing lances.

Maybe add in that no drop point can be within y meters of another drop point.

Edited by Dino Might, 06 March 2015 - 08:47 AM.

[Summon3r]

tbh the spawn camping is getting insane, and we do it as much as the next teams does it. those dropships should annihilate anything near the DZ, as for using dropships as defense on the attack waves move the DZ away from the gens and orbital battery

[Necromantion]

Summon3r, on 06 March 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

tbh the spawn camping is getting insane, and we do it as much as the next teams does it. those dropships should annihilate anything near the DZ, as for using dropships as defense on the attack waves move the DZ away from the gens and orbital battery

See above as to why that is a bad idea.

[Crockdaddy]

MischiefSC, on 03 January 2015 - 01:55 AM, said:

The issue is that the rest of the defenders just.... hang back and counter-LURM. You push the attackers out of Alpha and there's no way they're getting back in time to reinforce. You dig them out the moment you see they are setting up camp.

This isn't a map design issue it's a tactical issue. That team camping Alpha? They can shuffle a bit closer to the ogen location and blow the Omega for you when they get bored. If you're letting them stay there it's because you're making bad choices and going to lose anyway.

If it's IS mechs you push in the narrow approach on your right as you face alpha gate, hustle through and behind them. Then you shuffle your left side folks right up behind the buildings there and pinch from both sides. This largely removes their access to cover up high; to get cover they have to jump down into the trenches where they will get in each others way.

If it's Clanners you bum-rush them. The most common stupid mistake on Sulfur people make against Clanners is giving them time. Time = cooling and Clan builds are hot. The moment you see a concentrated group of Clanners start to set up shop you pull everyone into cover, call a clock time and you bull-rush them. Most will have 2 alphas and then hit their heat cap. Now their DPS just dropped by 90%. The key is swamping *all of them at once*. You don't 'focus fire them down one at a time', again that gives the rest time to shoot, cool, shoot. You bull rush almost all of them at once and stomp them when they overheat. They are there to attrition you out. Deny them that and do it quickly. The other problem is people waiting too long to do this so by the time they burn the Clanners out of the point they've lost 6 more mechs than they should. A defender trading 11 for 12 is winning. 13 for 12 is losing. The attacker can trade 13 for 12 so long as he's nailing objectives. You see a Clan group on wave 2 going for attrition and you burn them out early they now have only 2 waves to nail all the objectives to win.

Make sense? This is a problem of poor tactics and timidity on the part of the defenders, not a map design issue. Spawncamping defenders means the attackers have arrived, in force, pretty much at the Omega. If you can't push them out here then the spawn camping is not your issue.

There I fixed it for you. The most common problem that I see. If are going to LURM at least get to 300 meters of your team getting ripped to shreds proving you with targets.

[Necromantion]

Dino Might, on 06 March 2015 - 08:46 AM, said:

Would be prone to some serious trolling, but I think it would be very cool if:

You have the Team Commander select 3 dropzones on the map within the available region. For defenders, this can be anywhere inside the gates. For attackers, this can be anywhere outside x meters of all gates.

These drop points are now fixed and may not be changed throughout the match, but any mech can pick any one of the three drop points for each respawn.

Still prone to drop camping, but at least now the other team has to do some analysis and figure out where to camp and when. It would add a new tactical element to organizing lances.

Maybe add in that no drop point can be within y meters of another drop point.

This would present a few other problems:

1) Commander could troll by putting the drop zones close to the enemy entry to their base etc or in a really poor spot
2) Crashes/ground clipping/allowing dropships to damage enemies in areas of the map by flying over where they previously didnt/falling through the map etc
3) More crying and forum drama from pugs and semi pug groups due to 1 above
4) If they cant be moved it wouldnt be too hard to identify where they are due to the dropships flying in anyways after the first drop and camp them.
5) Maps like sulferous have extremely small defense zones and you really couldnt drop too much further away from the current areas anyways without reworking the whole map in that area.

Drops should be able to be chosen from a larger number of drop points prior to respawn, problem solved without creating more.

[HARDKOR]

Murphy7, on 06 March 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

So good on Hella-boring that the Counterattack / Hold Territory is a race to a small kill advantage and retreat to defend the drop points which are almost impossibly difficult to dislodge group from once that starts. Much easier for the defenders to accomplish based on distances one needs to cover, but very much possible for either side.

LOL

This is a perspective I haven't heard yet. Next time I'm romping around in someones DZ I'll accuse them of camping their drop zone.

[KraftySOT]

Vassago Rain, on 02 January 2015 - 11:25 PM, said:

They did, and it turns out that causes problems.

Who'd have thunk it?

What we need are maps that aren't prone to spawn camping and zergrushes like it's 2003.

PGI refuses to look at the rest of the gaming world for ideas. They have to go through every step games have gone through since 2001, for themselves, before they realize its a problem.

Notice Hellbore, has a completely different type of spawn area than the first two.

They could have just, oh I dont know, looked at any game in the past 12 years and figured out it would happen before hand, but...GOTO 10.

[Necromantion]

KraftySOT, on 06 March 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

PGI refuses to look at the rest of the gaming world for ideas. They have to go through every step games have gone through since 2001, for themselves, before they realize its a problem.

Notice Hellbore, has a completely different type of spawn area than the first two.

They could have just, oh I dont know, looked at any game in the past 12 years and figured out it would happen before hand, but...GOTO 10.

I am honestly at times flabbergasted by how short sighted their development has been with things. Anyone who has played games for a half decade or so even and could put a couple brain cells together could have foreseen a lot of the issues that we have faced in the past and currently do face right now. Its just stunning really