177 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

KrazedOmega, on 04 January 2015 - 05:44 AM, said:

With a variety of different weapons. Not all boating the same thing.

Yes that's because the Clans can choose from Storm Crows, Hell Bringers & Timber Wolves and have them each configured for a variety of top tier load outs - long range, medium range, short range/brawl.

Laser Vomit, MPL builds, SRM bombing, Gauss.

How many tp tier Thunderbolt load outs are there, 2?

How many IS medium mech load outs can even touch the Storm Crows dirty socks (Answer = 0)?

How good is the IS 75T heavy? (It's craptech).


I don't want any of those top tier clan mechs to get nerfed, I'm fine with where they are - but the hypocrisy of people playing those mechs begging for 9S nerfs is deserving of ridicule.


I own all of the mechs listed above. I have all of them mastered.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 04 January 2015 - 08:27 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Yeah they went a little overboard. They should take like 10% off heat reduction and 10% off cooldown. Reassign those to something else. Ballistics make sense.

[Ultimax]

MechaBattler, on 04 January 2015 - 08:35 AM, said:

Yeah they went a little overboard. They should take like 10% off heat reduction and 10% off cooldown. Reassign those to something else. Ballistics make sense.

No, it doesn't.

When you are 65 tons and have to run a 260 to 270 STD engine - you do not realistically have tonnage to run ER PPCs + heat sinks as well as ballistics in a terribly low mounted arm.


Thunderbolts were formerly extreme cases of bad design, giving them generalist builds to play would not have improved anything and is also why see almost zero conversation about the 9SE or 5S.


They got quirked, but we never see them in play. This is because they still aren't good enough.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 04 January 2015 - 08:42 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimatum X, on 04 January 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

Yes that's because the Clans can choose from Storm Crows, Hell Bringers & Timber Wolves and have them each configured for a variety of top tier load outs - long range, medium range, short range/brawl.

Laser Vomit, MPL builds, SRM bombing, Gauss.

How many tp tier Thunderbolt load outs are there, 2?

How many IS medium mech load outs can even touch the Storm Crows dirty socks (Answer = 0)?

How good is the IS 75T heavy? (It's craptech).


I don't want any of those top tier clan mechs to get nerfed, I'm fine with where they are - but the hypocrisy of people playing those mechs begging for 9S nerfs is deserving of ridicule.


I own all of the mechs listed above. I have all of them mastered.

Yeah, there are more viable loadouts for Timberwolves and Stormcrows than there are for thuds (not so for helbringers, who basically have two loadouts: laser vomit, and laser vomit+gauss, and are basically kind of mediocre mechs except for bringing ECM).

Number of loadouts means little, though, on the battlefield. All that matters is effectiveness of the chosen loadout.

TDR-9S and 5SS are kings, but that's hardly all the IS has on the table. Stalker-4N's laser vomit is lethal, the Wubverine puts out a lot more damage than any laser vomit based stormcrow, BNC3E's rapid-fire gauss rifle (3AC5) really wrecks face, Firestarters are Firestarters, the 2AC5 Dragon is pretty much broken, hell even the WVR-6R with AC5's is damned dangerous. There's a raft of highly effective hunchbacks (4G, 4SP, 4J). And more.

More importantly, there's opportunity. IS can bring a hell of a lot of really effective mechs to the field, and as such has a vast array of drop deck options. Clans? Timberwolves, Stormcrows, and Hellbringers. Any assault brought to the field is a net loss, because it forces you to bring really bad clan mechs and ultimately, the warhawk isn't very good, and the Direwhale is too slow for CW... and the Gargoyle is one of the worst tonnage:effectiveness mechs in the Clan arsenal.

So don't play the "oh, poor us, we have only one build per mech" card. That's what quirks did. But those "one build" mechs? They're pretty damn solid.

[LordBraxton]

Notice the divide between clan and innersphere players in this debate

If you take my quirks we get to take your clan XLs, fair?

Or, we go back to the 10v12 idea.

[Burktross]

FupDup, on 03 January 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:

I dunno if they're OP or UP or just right; but, what I do know for sure is that giving every single mech in the game longer range and less heat and faster cooldowns is just boring. Not every mech needs to be a long-range sustained DPS platform. Some mechs should be, yes, but not every damn one of them.

In the Thud's case, it should IMO be restructured to emphasize durability (a lot more armor) and some added agility (i.e. more twist radius) to define the mech's brawly/tanky role that it was originally built for. A generic heat dissipation boost would also be appropriate so that it can sustain itself in close combat, because brawlers kinda sorta need to be more heat efficient than their prey.

nerf al clan mek pls 800m max mlas range!11111

Thunderbolt ER PPC heat quirk needs to be toned down by a couple percents, otherwise its fine

Mcgral18, on 04 January 2015 - 08:18 AM, said:

While the IS has ERPPCs that are marginally hotter than the Clam Medium Lasers.

While the clans still manage to boat their smaller heatsinks on top of their lighter weight weapons.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yay. Endless PPCs from a mile away..dang.

[Burktross]

Mordin Ashe, on 04 January 2015 - 05:00 AM, said:

All the best Is units have drop decks built from TDRs with 3xERPPCs. That alone is enough for me to say that they need a nerfbat.

And the 3 SRM stormcrow builds do not deserve the same mercy?
Negative quirks for srms on all stormcrows!
Do you want hypocrisy? That's how you get hypocrisy!

LordKnightFandragon, on 04 January 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

Yay. Endless PPCs from a mile away..dang.

Yay... endless lasspam from a mile away...
Except this time its hitscan....

[Wintersdark]

Burktross, on 04 January 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

While the clans still manage to boat their smaller heatsinks on top of their lighter weight weapons.

Realistically, Clan mechs have 2-3 DHS more than comparable IS mechs. This, because in almost every case, Clan's have far less pod space in tons available per chassis weight. A 65 ton Hellbringer, for example, has 23.5 tons available (after skimming a bit of armor to get an "even" amount of tonnage available. A Timberwolf-C with an -S side torso has 25.5 tons available. 70 ton Summoner? 21 tons.

A normal XL Jagermech build has 34 tons available.

Burktross, on 04 January 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

Yay... endless lasspam from a mile away...
Except this time its hitscan....

Except IS can do this with ERLL's as well, at the same range Clans do. There are 70+ IS mechs with sufficient generic energy range to push their ERLL's to clan ERLL range. Some of those go even further.

[meteorol]

LordBraxton, on 04 January 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

Notice the divide between clan and innersphere players in this debate

If you take my quirks we get to take your clan XLs, fair?

Or, we go back to the 10v12 idea.

Sure, if you take hardlocked JJ, non customizable upgrades with that often over/undersized hardlocked clan xl?
Ready to "run" a wooping 107kph in your firestarter? Have 20 tons for weapons because you are forced to use a 400xl on your victor?

Clan vs. IS balance is alot more complicated than clan XL vs. quirks.
Besides, CW introduced more than pure clan vs. IS balance issues. The quirks also threw the balance between IS mechs out of whack, which is an issue since there is IS vs. IS in CW.

(On a side note: i don't give a rats ass if IS or Clan mechs are stronger, since i'll just use whatever is best at any given time. I'm currently waiting out on the TDR because i suspect they will nerf it with the next quirkpass, but if they don't, i'll just switch to IS)

Edited by meteorol, 04 January 2015 - 09:06 AM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

swap AWS9M ER quirks with the 9S

[InspectorG]

Thuds as a whole are fine. IN a good spot.

Now, as for roles:

5SS is fine, it received a slight heat nerf.

9SE...no one is talking about so, shouldnt need a nerf.

9S, well the ONLY gripe i have is ERPPC is good at brawling ranges as well as down range.

THATS the problem, you get 2 roles for the 'price' of one.

SIMPLE FIX:

CUT THE FIRING RATE.

Keep the heat, velocity, range.

Put it closer to a 4 second cooldown, maybe boost velocity to compensate.

Problem fixed, Keeps energy quirks for 'usually' ML and ERPPC is still strong but cant be spammed so much.

FIXED

[Burktross]

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Except IS can do this with ERLL's as well, at the same range Clans do. There are 70+ IS mechs with sufficient generic energy range to push their ERLL's to clan ERLL range. Some of those go even further.

It'd be nice if it was only large lasers, but laser boating medlas is still effective in large amounts over such a distance. The same cannot be said of IS medlas.

Edited by Burktross, 04 January 2015 - 09:24 AM.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Yeah, there are more viable loadouts for Timberwolves and Stormcrows than there are for thuds (not so for helbringers, who basically have two loadouts: laser vomit, and laser vomit+gauss, and are basically kind of mediocre mechs except for bringing ECM).

Number of loadouts means little, though, on the battlefield. All that matters is effectiveness of the chosen loadout.

Number of load outs, especially in that tonnage range, is what allows the clans to have more options in CW.

i.e. You never have to leave the handful of top tier mechs regardless of what load out you are going for. This is a sizeable advantage.

Having more options means mechs are less susceptible to being left behind when the meta shifts.

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Stalker-4N's laser vomit is lethal

I own this mech and now no longer play it.

Aside from high energy mounts it is no different in damage output than a 4x CLPL Warhawk.

2x CLPL = 600m range, 26 damage, 20 heat.
3x LLAS = 585m range, 27 damage, 24.53 heat -20% quirk for 19.64 heat

So the 4N is slightly more heat efficient, and has slightly less range.

The Warhawk has upwards of 24 DHS and spent 24T on it's weapons, and also has a MK 1 TC.
The 4N has about 20 DHS and spent 30T on it's weapons.

The 4N has better weapon placement, the Warhawk is faster, and much more agile.

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

the Wubverine puts out a lot more damage than any laser vomit based stormcrow, BNC3E's rapid-fire gauss rifle (3AC5) really wrecks face, Firestarters are Firestarters, the 2AC5 Dragon is pretty much broken, hell even the WVR-6R with AC5's is damned dangerous. There's a raft of highly effective hunchbacks (4G, 4SP, 4J). And more.

The Wubverine even with quirks, isn't half the mech the Storm Crow is.

I can say that I have not seen a single Wubverine in any CW match, and very rarely see them in the solo queue or team queue now that the initial excitement of IS quirks have died down.

The BNC3E is a great mech, it is not on the level of neither the King Crab nor the Dire Wolf when it comes to raw firepower. It's saving grace is it's ability to soak damage, but it's still not as powerful as the DWF.

Firestarters are indeed Firestarters. The one shining example of a competitive light mech.

Hunchbacks are OK, they are still not even remotely close to Storm Crows.

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

More importantly, there's opportunity. IS can bring a hell of a lot of really effective mechs to the field, and as such has a vast array of drop deck options.

You are overvaluing a lot of mechs, my experience doing 12 mans in CW has seen very little in the way of variety.


I own about 80 mechs, and a full half of those are clan mechs.

Unlike others, I'm not a role player - I could give two squirts of piss about fake planets, or faction pride.

I am playing IS now, but I will be playing Clan in CW at some point in the near future.




There are a lot of things I think need improving clanside, a number of mechs sorely need quirks, I think CERMLAS and CMPL heat can come down 0.5 points, I think UACs are bad weapons unless boated and need several improvement tweaks and I'd be perfectly OK with 15 pinpoint CERPPCs (on the tears on these forums!).


So please don't mistake me as some IS die hard who is only out for his faction, when I do solo or normal team queue drops - I'd much rather be in my SCR, HBR and TBR than either of my clunky Thunderbolts who I wouldn't even own if I wasn't in a unit doing CW.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 04 January 2015 - 09:28 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Burktross, on 04 January 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

It'd be nice if it was only large lasers, but laser boating medlas is still effective in large amounts over such a distance. The same cannot be said of IS medlas.

Boating medium lasers is not useful at 600m. They do some 3.5 damage each at that range, at very high heat. That's hardly competitive with actual ranged weapons.

But yes, Clan ERML's are superior to IS ML's. Welcome to the Clan's only range advantage, 400m ML's vs. ~300m IS ML's (again, 70+ IS mechs have typically +10% generic energy range), and 30% more damage too. Mind you, at +50% heat, and a quarter of a second less burn time... and that's assuming there's no IS heat or other quirks to those mediums.

IS can fire 3 ML's for the same heat as 2 CERML's, 15 vs. 14 damage.

And that's the Clan's best weapon tech advantage. It IS an advantage, ERML's are better than ML's. But that's the extent of it. IS, thanks to quirks, has superior weapons in every other category.

[MechaBattler]

Ultimatum X, on 04 January 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

No, it doesn't.

When you are 65 tons and have to run a 260 to 270 STD engine - you do not realistically have tonnage to run ER PPCs + heat sinks as well as ballistics in a terribly low mounted arm.


Thunderbolts were formerly extreme cases of bad design, giving them generalist builds to play would not have improved anything and is also why see almost zero conversation about the 9SE or 5S.


They got quirked, but we never see them in play. This is because they still aren't good enough.

Well with only 40% heat reduction. ERPPC is still like 9 heat. You could have 2. Drop either an AC5 or UAC5 and have enough tonnage for 2 or 3 ammo. With a 275 Standard.

It's not like people aren't running them with XLs. We have people with 4xERPPC. That should really only be the domain of the Awesome in my opinion.

None of the other Thunderbolt quirks got 50% reduction to single attributes of a single weapon. They went too far.

Edited by MechaBattler, 04 January 2015 - 09:36 AM.

[MechWarrior9376871]

Pat Kell, on 03 January 2015 - 11:04 PM, said:

While the ERPPC TBolt is definitely annoying, if you take this away from the IS folks, I'm not sure what else they could take to be effective against clans. Right now, this is the single biggest feared mech in the IS arsenal and for good reason but take it away and suddenly there is nothing on the field that I really fear. At least in a ranged fight. Brawling is a different story though and if I let brawlers get close enough to be effective it's my own darn fault anyway:)

That is why Clammers are crying so much. They like having a long range monopoly on game play. Otherwise they may actually fail to capture one of those planets in CW. How many planets have Clammers failed to capture?

[MechWarrior9376871]

LastKhan, on 03 January 2015 - 11:44 PM, said:

Love how people think we're talking about the mech and its not. The Quarks are really strong and ive played with the thing, its devastating. It needs a tone down, not a complete nerf bat. (i still love my bolts even though im clan in CW.)

You're full of brown stuff. I have played at least 100 T-bolt matches. It is one of the best IS mechs, but no where near a TW, DIRE, Crow, Firestarter, etc. I think I have broken a 1000 damage once with 4 kills. I have broken 1200 on Dires, TWs, Crows, Firestarters, Summoners, Cataphracts, Kit Fox!!!!!!, and Atlasi usually with 5-6 kills.

No one uses an IS ERPPC because it is the crapiest weapon in the game right now (I dont even call the Flamer a weapon). The only way it is usable is with the quirks

Edited by 911 Inside Job, 04 January 2015 - 09:50 AM.

[Mcgral18]

911 Inside Job, on 04 January 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

You're full of brown stuff. I have played at least 100 T-bolt matches. It is one of the best IS mechs, but no where near a TW, DIRE, Crow, Firestarter, etc. I think I have broken a 1000 damage once with 4 kills. I have broken 1200 on Dires, TWs, Crows, Firestarters, Summoners, Cataphracts, and Atlasi usually with 5-6 kills.

No one uses an IS ERPPC because it is the crapiest weapon in the game right now (I dont even call the Flamer a weapon). The only way it is usable is with the quirks

A good reason for that is the lack of spread damage, for the most part.

I've used it less than 20 matches, and already have a 1000+ damage match, with 8 kills. That may or may not have had basic skills, so another 7.5 dissipation and 10% heat cap can still be obtained along with the agility buffs.


It's very usable with half heat, yes. Exceedingly easily usable. It would also be usable at 9 heat, but not completely ridiculous. It's in need of a adjustment.
Something tells me it will get one. The 5SS got one with half of these quirk levels.

Edited by Mcgral18, 04 January 2015 - 09:59 AM.

[Ultimax]

MechaBattler, on 04 January 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

Well with only 40% heat reduction. ERPPC is still like 9 heat. You could have 2. Drop either an AC5 or UAC5 and have enough tonnage for 2 or 3 ammo. With a 275 Standard.

What are you going to be doing with those 12 tons worth of AC 5 in that low mounted arm on a sniper mech that can't jump, especially with the ER PPCs on the RIGHT SIDE and the AC 5 on THE LEFT SIDE.

This is a very poor design, the mech not only has terrible convergence but loses a shield side - these are critical factors for a mech to be competitive.

MechaBattler, on 04 January 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

It's not like people aren't running them with XLs. We have people with 4xERPPC. That should really only be the domain of the Awesome in my opinion.

We don't hold up bad builds as an example of what can be done, anyone running an XL in a Thunderbolt is making a mistake.

There is no reason for it, outside of being greedy and trying to get a 4th ER PPC on there.


The idea of a 9S with 2x ER PPCs, an AC 5 and an XL engine is a bad build.

MechaBattler, on 04 January 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

None of the other Thunderbolt quirks got 50% reduction to single attributes of a single weapon.

The 5SS has 50% range to MPLs. That's why it's a strong build.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 04 January 2015 - 09:55 AM.