177 replies to this topic

[Jazzbandit1313]

I've seen all the "TDBolt OP" threads and wanted to take a count of how many people actually think the mech's chassis quirks are overpowered.

Yay or nay and why? Looking for some good discussion regarding the chassis, not "OP NERF PLS" or "L2P"

*I personally think they need toning down a bit*

Edited by Jazzbandit1313, 03 January 2015 - 10:45 PM.

[Brody319]

This isn't a poll! How can I vote?!

but yay, it needs to be toned down a bit.

[Jazzbandit1313]

Brody319, on 03 January 2015 - 10:44 PM, said:

This isn't a poll! How can I vote?!

but yay, it needs to be toned down a bit.

I've forgotten how to start polls lol...

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Oooh, I do not see this thread ending well.

[FupDup]

I dunno if they're OP or UP or just right; but, what I do know for sure is that giving every single mech in the game longer range and less heat and faster cooldowns is just boring. Not every mech needs to be a long-range sustained DPS platform. Some mechs should be, yes, but not every damn one of them.

In the Thud's case, it should IMO be restructured to emphasize durability (a lot more armor) and some added agility (i.e. more twist radius) to define the mech's brawly/tanky role that it was originally built for. A generic heat dissipation boost would also be appropriate so that it can sustain itself in close combat, because brawlers kinda sorta need to be more heat efficient than their prey.

[Euri Yggdrasil]

Well, all I'll say is I still see more Timber Wolf mechs and Hellbringer mechs than Thunderbolt mechs. If TDRs were that OP, they would be overwhelming the Heavy queue.

[SpiralFace]

I apologize for the format, too tired to re-write this at this moment for a direct discussion on balance of the thunderbolt. But a discussion on the value of "high value quirks" came up and I forwarded my feelings on the thunderbolts in it.


I think one thing that goes overlooked is how easy a mech is to spam individual weapons that are heavily quirked. As well as the "mitigating circumstances" around the designs.

Huggin? Its quirks are high, but it can only ever mount two launchers to abuse those quirks. (And they aren't even max tube launchers.)

Awesomes? High quirks, high hardpoint numbers, but terrible geometry and weapon placement (low slung.)

Hunchback 4G? High quirks, High mounted weaponry but you could ever only mount a single AC 20.

Grid iron pulse laser quirks? You could ever only have 3. So high quirks are fine.

I think the reason you see a lot of hate towards high value quirks is when they are applied to mechs that simply don't need them to be THAT high valued. High value quirks should be an option, but they should REALLY only be there to compensate for other short comings the mech might have to make a chassis that can make up for its deficiency's in other ways.

• Low # of weapon type hard points
  
• No high slung weapon option
  
• very wide hard points that mess with weapon convergence (non-laser weapons.)
  
• Lack of critical's to mount 1-2 of the weapon on the mech. (despite the hardpoints for it.)
  
• Bad mech geometry / hitboxes
  
• I think if a mech has 3 or more of these kinds of characteristics that its worth considering giving them high value quirks. But that's IF they have 3 or more of these problems.

For the sake of highlighting this, I'm going to point to the current Thunderbolt 9S.

The reason I feel the 9S crosses a line when an awesome 9M does not is for the following reasons:

• It has plenty of hard points to essentially single spam the single weapon system. (Awesome is limited by crits if it ever wanted to add a 4th ER PPC.)
  
• It has a LARGE amount of hard points that are high mounted compared to mechs like the Awesome (And the awesome needs to use its low slung points for the PPC's.)
  
• Its hard points are TIGHTLY clustered Unlike the 9M that sees you needing to spread your hard points across all low mounted points.

Its semi bad geometry is probably the only negative thing that would actually justify those kinds of quirks.
High valued quirks should DEFINATLY be an options the developers can and SHOULD utilize to create balance between frames. But they should be CAREFULLY scrutinized in how they are given out. The T-bolt is a good example of a frame that while it would need quirks, did not need a 50% cooling rating IN ADDITION to velocity buffs to bring it in line with others. Given that while its not a T1 frame on its own, its not so terrible in that it should be getting T5 like quirks.

The Awesome on the other hand needs MUCH more help, and because of other limiting factors on the frame, well deserves the high quirks that it gets.

Edited by SpiralFace, 03 January 2015 - 10:59 PM.

[Ralgas]

As it stands and in my experience no, but with the caveat that we need more cw content soon.

It's a little telling that out there in the non cw queues they are barely seen, with the "OP" part mainly related to the conditions and restriction imposed by the cw maps and drop deck limits.

Edited by Ralgas, 03 January 2015 - 10:56 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

i dont think any mech should get 50% heat reduction for a weapon, especially PPCs,
it just sounds like a bad idea, perhaps it needs to be toned down, maybe just abit,

[Pat Kell]

While the ERPPC TBolt is definitely annoying, if you take this away from the IS folks, I'm not sure what else they could take to be effective against clans. Right now, this is the single biggest feared mech in the IS arsenal and for good reason but take it away and suddenly there is nothing on the field that I really fear. At least in a ranged fight. Brawling is a different story though and if I let brawlers get close enough to be effective it's my own darn fault anyway:)

[EgoSlayer]

Users can't do polls in general anymore, only in suggestion area I believe.

I don't think the 9S is that bad. The ERPPCs are not any worse than twin gauss. The heat reduction might be a bit on the high side, but it's not as out of line as the doomsayers are portraying.

Widowmaker1981, on 03 January 2015 - 06:34 AM, said:

To be honest, while i used to agree the thundrbolt was stupid OP, im not so sure anymore. a bit maybe, but not hugely. I think part of the reason is that IS ERPPCs, which is what it is hugely buffed for, are contenders for being the worst weapon system in the game imo (well, barring flamers obviously)

I did some testing to compare to clan mechs and the results are a little closer that i thought (all tests on forest colony. with mastered mechs - using a stopwatch so times could be maybe 0.5s wrong):

Thunderbolt 9S, STD 290, 3x ERPPC, 16DHS, ERPPC cd5
Firing only the 2 shoulder mounted PPCs as a pair:
8 volleys in 16 seconds, overheats on the 8th - 160 pinpoint damage. Takes ~19s to cool from 100% to zero

Warhawk, 2x ERPPC, 2xLPL, 28DHS, TC1, ERPPC cd5
Firing only the PPCs:
6 Volleys in 16s, overheats on the 6th. 120 pinpoint, 30-60 splash, takes ~15s to cool from 100% to zero

Hellbringer, 2x ERPPC, 24 DHS, TC1, ERPPC cd5 (bad build, wouldnt use it in a game, just to compare equal tonnage)
5 volleys in 13s, overheats on the 5th - 100 pinpoint, 25-50 splash. takes 19s to cool down from 100% to zero

Compared to the Warhawk the Thud is doing similar damage before overheat, though more pinpoint, moving faster and more agile, 20 tons lighter. The extra weapons on both mechs nearly balance each other with a slight advantage to the warhawk there. The warhawk dissipates its heat slightly faster, but nowhere as much as youd expect from all those heatsinks (due to DHS raising the cap as well as the dissipation i think). The thunderbolt is a better mech, but there isnt a great deal in it really - but the WHK is 20 tons heavier, so in this kind of comparision its a bit silly that it would lose.

The BHR is faster andd more agile than the thud and has ECM, but its heat efficiency cannot compare.. its a bit of a silly comparison though, because thats not a good hellbringer build - Guass + 4 ERML is far better. Its more to show that with 24 DHS it takes almost exactly the same time to cool from 100% to zero as the TDR with 16 DHS

My conclusion from this really is that DHS should be made true 2.0s all the way for dissipation only (so clans actually get the benefit from having so many, which they pay for in other nerfs) and increase all armour by say 20% to compensate for slightly increased DPS.

That said - these quirks really should be on the Awesome, not the T-bolt.

[TyphonCh]

Yay, because of quirks.


Pre-quirk, this mech didn't exist. Now, every mech i target I expect either x3 ERPPC,or x7 MPL. there's no variance. It's boring, and it's quirks gone wrong..

Off topic, but another example: Firestarters
I mastered my Firestarters pre-quirks. I own the FST-E, the (c), and H variants. EVERY single one feels obsolete because of the quirks. I built them a certain way because I ENJOYED the play style. Now, the ones I own feel uncompetetive. Now, the only Firestarters that exist are A's and K's boating small pulse's because the quirks are inane - This **** didn't exist pre-quirk.
It's rubbish.
Certain builds shouldn't become obsolete because of quirks, NOR SHOULD certain builds become META because of quirks.

Edited by Team Chevy86, 03 January 2015 - 11:11 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I vote to trade the ERPPC quirk between the TDR-9S and the AWS-9M.

So the 9S gets 12.5% and the 9M gets 25% on ERPPCs

And remember, the 9S retains 25% general energy and the 9M retains 12.5%

Meaning both get ERPPCs at 9.65 Heat (37.5%) and the 9S can then consider carrying a variety Energy that helps it out, and the 9M gets better at boating ERPPCs under our current constraints.

[Spheroid]

I love that people think PPC quirks are the problem. All the serious legging is from wub, but if you clanners think there is some sort of PPC problem keep talking that angle up. I won't stop you.

[KrazedOmega]

They're a bit too good at the moment.

It's not so bad in the solo queue but I had a CW match earlier this evening where a certain IS 8 man had two T9's per person. It was nothing but blue beachballs flying the whole round.

As a solo mech it needs a bit of a nerf but when you get whole groups exploiting them that's when it becomes a problem. Then the nerf hammer eventually hits and ruins it for everyone.

Spheroid, on 03 January 2015 - 11:28 PM, said:

I love that people think PPC quirks are the problem. All the serious legging is from wub, but if you clanners think there is some sort of PPC problem keep talking that angle up. I won't stop you.

Legging? No need to leg when you have 9 or more PPCs flying at a target. CT will do just fine.

Edited by KrazedOmega, 03 January 2015 - 11:38 PM.

[Gyrok]

Spheroid, on 03 January 2015 - 11:28 PM, said:

I love that people think PPC quirks are the problem. All the serious legging is from wub, but if you clanners think there is some sort of PPC problem keep talking that angle up. I won't stop you.

Then vote yes, it is OP.

Yes, the heat reductions are OP. The mech in this config is tier 0 now.

[Serpieri]

Where's the poll to buff the Awesome to Tbolt level?

[LastKhan]

Love how people think we're talking about the mech and its not. The Quarks are really strong and ive played with the thing, its devastating. It needs a tone down, not a complete nerf bat. (i still love my bolts even though im clan in CW.)

Edited by LastKhan, 03 January 2015 - 11:46 PM.

[EvilCow]

Yay, another thunderbolt thread, we can enjoy all the QQ, the attempts at math, the examples, the screenshots, the insults, the whining, the wall of text again.

[Vassago Rain]

IS has one robot that gets range on the clans.

I vote that if we 'tone it down,' we also straight up remove the clan 50% range advantage on practically everything.