26 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

I was intending to post the Stormcrow and Timberwolf way back when, but never got around to it because I was grinding most of the mechs from Wave 2, including the Hellbringer.

So, in preparation for this, I'd like to know what people want to see/know about these particular mechs outside of the useless, but frequent ranting of "these mechs are too OP".

If you haven't read my style of posts, there should be plenty of them floating around on the forum including stuff listed in this post...
http://mwomercs.com/...en/page__st__60

Towards the end will have more specific threads about clan mechs, which is probably the style I'm probably going to focus with currently.

Just so you know, the order of the thread will go in order of tonnage, so the Stormcrow is first, the Hellbringer is next, and the Timberwolf is last in the order.

Questions, concerns, complaints, whines can be posted, but please be constructive. Otherwise, "lol ok".

[FupDup]

The Loki isn't technically part of the trinity.

The Whale is the third link, at least outside of CW (because tonnage limits constrain it)...

Edited by FupDup, 05 January 2015 - 03:59 PM.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 05 January 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

The Loki isn't technically part of the trinity.

The Whale is the third link, at least outside of CW where tonnage limits constrain it...

tonnage limits and speed. The whale is nearly worthless in any serious CW, baring highly customized defense tactics(maybe).

CW has thoroughly ejected the Whale from the trinity, and completely replaced it by the Hellbringer (which I still maintain to merely be average at best, except for bringing ECM in a platform that isn't a Clan Light.

[Lily from animove]

Wintersdark, on 05 January 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

tonnage limits and speed. The whale is nearly worthless in any serious CW, baring highly customized defense tactics(maybe).

CW has thoroughly ejected the Whale from the trinity, and completely replaced it by the Hellbringer (which I still maintain to merely be average at best, except for bringing ECM in a platform that isn't a Clan Light.

well in CW we have the dynamic duo throwing the show.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 05 January 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

The Loki isn't technically part of the trinity.

The Whale is the third link, at least outside of CW (because tonnage limits constrain it)...

Well, the Dire Whale is a different mess... especially with the Dire Whale hilarity that exists (too slow being the most mentioned complaint).

While I have no particular intention to mention CW, but these are pretty much fielded on a regular basis so it's worth looking into.

Also, there will actually be recommendations for nerfs... but whatever I guess.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 05 January 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

The Loki isn't technically part of the trinity.

The Whale is the third link, at least outside of CW (because tonnage limits constrain it)...

The Hell Bringer is T1, and has been since the day they fixed the hitboxes.

As Winter said CW tonnage limits put heavy restrictions on bringing Dire Wolves.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 05 January 2015 - 05:00 PM, said:

The Hell Bringer is T1, and has been since the day they fixed the hitboxes.

As Winter said CW tonnage limits put heavy restrictions on bringing Dire Wolves.

T1 doesn't necessarily equal trinity. It doesn't outclass the majority of other heavies like the TBR does (yes, there are some exceptions like the Thunderwub and Thud 9S in their niches).

I also already mentioned tonnage limits...

[Gyrok]

Talk about the weaknesses, since so many people think there are none...

Like inability to mount dual gauss effectively, JJs mounted in the best brawling torsos and their worthlessness, the bad ST hitboxes that get it cut in half, the large CT, low mounted hard points, most weapons in the arms, lack of any weapon options beyond lasers, atrocious heat, unexchangeable engines, locked internals, odd ammo placement due to said internals. Best builds requiring multiple JJs because hardpoint locations in specific torsos, limited torso twist with laser vomit configs, long burn duration lasers, terrible ERPPCs, streaks with absurd recharge times, missile hardpoints making mini catapult ears tied to STs...

All that good stuff, including what mechs outclass it completely in their given niches...then worry about what it does well.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 05 January 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

T1 doesn't necessarily equal trinity. It doesn't outclass the majority of other heavies like the TBR does (yes, there are some exceptions like the Thunderwub and Thud 9S in their niches).

I also already mentioned tonnage limits...

I think you're just looking for some manufactured moniker.

It has a Goldilocks engine size, more available tonnage than the Storm Crow, it spreads damage well, it can run fully asymmetrical builds, it has enough hardpoints to boat energy and/or use a Gauss rifle - most of which can all be high mounted for sniping or corner poking, it can quasi zombie with a head laser, it has ECM.


It's clearly T1, it's better than every clan heavy not named Timber Wolf and it at the least rivals the Stormcrow - there are very few IS heavies I'd put up next to it and it can even run an MPL build that while not exactly the same can easily go toe to toe with the 5SS and IMO is every bit it's equal or better.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 05 January 2015 - 05:15 PM.

[Gyrok]

Ultimatum X, on 05 January 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

I think you're just looking for some manufactured moniker.

It has a Goldilocks engine size, more available tonnage than the Storm Crow, it spreads damage well, it can run fully asymmetrical builds, it has enough hardpoints to boat energy and/or use a Gauss rifle - most of which can all be high mounted for sniping or corner poking, it can quasi zombie with a head laser, it has ECM.


It's clearly T1, it's better than every clan heavy not named Timber Wolf and it at the least rivals the Stormcrow.

Honestly, considering your argument is that it outclasses a missile boat (MDD) and the most lackluster heavy mech clans have (SMN), I think hellbie is in a good place right now...

[LordKnightFandragon]

Deathlike, on 05 January 2015 - 04:40 PM, said:

Well, the Dire Whale is a different mess... especially with the Dire Whale hilarity that exists (too slow being the most mentioned complaint).

While I have no particular intention to mention CW, but these are pretty much fielded on a regular basis so it's worth looking into.

Also, there will actually be recommendations for nerfs... but whatever I guess.

The Whale is mostly a joke of a mech. I never see it being this OP monster of doom kicking down the door and melting faces like it says in the myth.....rather, I see them stroll in and they are the ones who melt...in a disturbingly fast fashion...

Ultimatum X, on 05 January 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

I think you're just looking for some manufactured moniker.

It has a Goldilocks engine size, more available tonnage than the Storm Crow, it spreads damage well, it can run fully asymmetrical builds, it has enough hardpoints to boat energy and/or use a Gauss rifle - most of which can all be high mounted for sniping or corner poking, it can quasi zombie with a head laser, it has ECM.


It's clearly T1, it's better than every clan heavy not named Timber Wolf and it at the least rivals the Stormcrow - there are very few IS heavies I'd put up next to it and it can even run an MPL build that while not exactly the same can easily go toe to toe with the 5SS and IMO is every bit it's equal or better.

Hellbringer? Yeah, it appears to be a good mech. By no means OP kind of good, but its a good one.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 05 January 2015 - 05:19 PM.

[MoonfireSpam]

Gyrok, on 05 January 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

Talk about the weaknesses, since so many people think there are none...

Like inability to mount dual gauss effectively, JJs mounted in the best brawling torsos and their worthlessness, the bad ST hitboxes that get it cut in half, the large CT, low mounted hard points, most weapons in the arms, lack of any weapon options beyond lasers, atrocious heat, unexchangeable engines, locked internals, odd ammo placement due to said internals. Best builds requiring multiple JJs because hardpoint locations in specific torsos, limited torso twist with laser vomit configs, long burn duration lasers, terrible ERPPCs, streaks with absurd recharge times, missile hardpoints making mini catapult ears tied to STs...

All that good stuff, including what mechs outclass it completely in their given niches...then worry about what it does well.

Yeah Stormcrows and Timberwolves trash tier mechs.

[Gyrok]

MoonfireSpam, on 05 January 2015 - 05:19 PM, said:

Yeah Stormcrows and Timberwolves trash tier mechs.

Never said trash tier, I just said it has weaknesses many people trivialize when they go nerf herding.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 05 January 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

I think you're just looking for some manufactured moniker.

It has a Goldilocks engine size, more available tonnage than the Storm Crow, it spreads damage well, it can run fully asymmetrical builds, it has enough hardpoints to boat energy and/or use a Gauss rifle - most of which can all be high mounted for sniping or corner poking, it can quasi zombie with a head laser, it has ECM.


It's clearly T1, it's better than every clan heavy not named Timber Wolf and it at the least rivals the Stormcrow - there are very few IS heavies I'd put up next to it and it can even run an MPL build that while not exactly the same can easily go toe to toe with the 5SS and IMO is every bit it's equal or better.

I never said it wasn't a good gundam, I just said it's not among the so-called "Holy Trinity." Well, at least not in the original meaning of the term as it was coined months ago...CW's tonnage limits, as we know, invalidate the "traditional" definition of the trinity, but that's more of a CW problem than a mech problem...

[Ultimax]

Gyrok, on 05 January 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

Honestly, considering your argument is that it outclasses a missile boat (MDD) and the most lackluster heavy mech clans have (SMN), I think hellbie is in a good place right now...

Unlike ... a lot of players, I don't have a problem with it (or any mech) being T1, or admitting it's T1.

If by "in a good place" you mean better than the other non-TBR clan heavies, and better than the vast majority of IS heavies and able to keep pace with Thunderbolts and only outperformed by the 9S in one specific niche, in one specific game mode - then yes it's "in a good place".

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 05 January 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

Talk about the weaknesses, since so many people think there are none...

There are weaknesses, but good players minimize them... either through builds or actual understanding.

Quote

Like inability to mount dual gauss effectively, JJs mounted in the best brawling torsos and their worthlessness, the bad ST hitboxes that get it cut in half, the large CT, low mounted hard points, most weapons in the arms, lack of any weapon options beyond lasers, atrocious heat, unexchangeable engines, locked internals, odd ammo placement due to said internals. Best builds requiring multiple JJs because hardpoint locations in specific torsos, limited torso twist with laser vomit configs, long burn duration lasers, terrible ERPPCs, streaks with absurd recharge times, missile hardpoints making mini catapult ears tied to STs...

Dual Gauss is not exactly a plus, consider a Timberwolf "consumes" 5 tons for DHS by default.

While the side torso hitboxes are what they are, you're not supposed to show your face indefinitely. That's completely pilot error.

Hardlocked JJs are the least of your problems. If you're making LRM boats out of Timberwolves, I have Atlas-LRM boats to sell you. There are better things to do than the use LRMs on a Timberwolf. It so much amounts to the day PGI decided to enforce an ECM hardpoint and the massive complaining about that with respect to LRM boats on the D-DC.

Of course, people should be complaining for not getting the TImberwolf-D (and its omnipods) instead.

Quote

All that good stuff, including what mechs outclass it completely in their given niches...then worry about what it does well.

Comparisons will be made, rest assured.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

So is the HB actually T1 or is that just some internewb speculation? If it is true, citation please. If not what would you consider a non-ECM torso, for quirk purposes? Quirks get weird with omnipoints, especially with 0 hard-point omni.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Ultimatum X, on 05 January 2015 - 05:00 PM, said:

The Hell Bringer is T1, and has been since the day they fixed the hitboxes.

You and I definitely have different standards for Tier 1. It's a solid 2, with a few potentially tier 1 builds. But the only thing that makes it a Tier 1 at all is the ECM in a heavy chassis.

[FupDup]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 05 January 2015 - 05:50 PM, said:

So is the HB actually T1 or is that just some internewb speculation? If it is true, citation please. If not what would you consider a non-ECM torso, for quirk purposes? Quirks get weird with omnipoints, especially with 0 hard-point omni.

Tiers are subjective to an extent (although there are many that people commonly agree on), but what's clear is that the Loki is certainly a good Gundam.

The non-ECM torsos however could probably use some quirks so that people have a reason to use something other than the Prime's LT (which is head and shoulders better than the other two LT choices available). I think those are the only buffs the Loki could use, otherwise it's fine.

Edited by FupDup, 05 January 2015 - 05:54 PM.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

FupDup, on 05 January 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

Tiers are subjective to an extent (although there are many that people commonly agree on), but what's clear is that the Loki is certainly a good Gundam.

The non-ECM torsos however could probably use some quirks so that people have a reason to use something other than the Prime's LT (which is head and shoulders better than the other two LT choices available). I think those are the only buffs the Loki could use, otherwise it's fine.

Very true.

Basic concept of Tiers should be understood essentially as follows:

God Tier: Timberwolf (arguably, in CW, Stormcrows and TDR-9S, also)
Tier 1: Top machines, first choices in weight class for comp play
Tier 2: Good solid mechs, maybe not universal Comp mechs, but never a detriment to the team
Tier 3: The average. In good hands, can do good things, though rarely better than actual "good" mechs
Tier 4: Substandard. Might have some builds that can perform, OK, especially in the hands of die hards, but rare on the field.
Tier 5: Garbage. Horrid hitboxes, no weapon tonnage, bad hardpoint placement, some mix of the holy trinity of bad traits, to the point on nubs, and masochists pilot them.