49 replies to this topic

[Mawai]

LRMs are called a newb weapon because you don't need to see your target and you don't need to aim them. All you need to do is keep a lock. Whether that is an accurate description. or not depends on your point of view.

The reason LRMs can be powerful is due to concentration of force. With direct fire weapons you can only be killed by mechs you can see. Dodge into cover and you reduce incoming damage. Choice of cover is easy since you can see where the opponents are ... the opponents that can fire are limited by line of sight.

With LRMs, you could potentially find yourself being focus fired by all 12 of the opposing team at once where ever they are located. If you dodge into cover to avoid LRMs the effectiveness depends on where the LRMs are coming from which may not be known until they hit. If you happen to be crossing the open when caught by LRMs in a slow mech it is quite possible to die before reaching cover. (This happened to me once in an Atlas ... I was crossing the river on the old river city map and was killed by LRMs before I could get to cover).

Finally, many players appear to find LRMs frustrating because they can't see anyone to fire back at.

[Otto Cannon]

It's no shock that people who don't even understand how to avoid LRMs call them 'noob weapons' because they don't understand how to use them either.

The mentality is 'it killed me, therefore it must be OP because it couldn't possibly be that I'm a bad player'.

[Sputty]

Otto Cannon, on 25 September 2015 - 03:16 AM, said:

It's no shock that people who don't even understand how to avoid LRMs call them 'noob weapons' because they don't understand how to use them either.

The mentality is 'it killed me, therefore it must be OP because it couldn't possibly be that I'm a bad player'.

It's easy to avoid LRMs. They're still a noob weapon and a trap for bad players to never improve.

[Zerberus]

El Bandito, on 06 January 2015 - 07:20 PM, said:

Before the BAP rework to counter ECM, the CPLT-A1 was the most challenging LRM/SSRM boat to play--certainly not for noobs. And played it I did. The amount of situational awareness skill I gain from the experience was invaluable.

Yep, as a platform that relies solely on missiles (I still run mine with 6xLRM5, btw), you have to know the map like the back of your hand, predict what your enemy is going to do, and react before it happens. You`re constantly repositioning yourself to get a good angle and /or keep lights from sneaking up on you. Then the moment to fire comes... rainbow? Salvos of 15? Or give him all 30 tubes? Do I have the Ammo to keep it up? What cover does the target have nearby, and can he make it there in time? If I lose my LOS, is there a friendly near that can track until they hit? Is there enemy ECM nearby, or why do I keep losing locks in quadrant D5? So on and so forth...

But we all know that absolutely none of that is "skill", the only thing that requires skill in this game is mounting as many big PPFLD guns as you can, putting them all in one weapons group and pressing the left mouse button becasue you think you saw something move 1200m away ...

[Kotzi]

A weapon where you have to rely on good spotters and in reward can damage enemys without them beeing able to retaliate. USELESS!!!

[Sputty]

Kotzi, on 25 September 2015 - 04:04 AM, said:

A weapon where you have to rely on good spotters and in reward can damage enemys without them beeing able to retaliate. USELESS!!!

Yes. A weapon that relies on exposing someone else to fire so that there are fewer targets exposed is useless. One of the key elements of firing lines in this game is exposing multiple people so a single person can't be easily targeted and killed by groups. If you're going to use LRMs and expose yourself anyway you may as well use a direct fire weapon that can target components and more reliably use through ECM and targeting issues.

[Kotzi]

Just wait and let the spotters and lrms do their job. Finish the enemy when their armor is lowered. That does not work when you Nascar from the start of course.

[fat4eyes]

There's another interesting use for LRMs: suppression. Load up on the usual laser meta, but make room for a couple of lrm5s or an lrm10, just enough to make an enemy duck into cover. Fire LRMs at an enemy to make them duck into cover, then shoot at someone else with your main armament. You can cut down the number of enemies shooting at you (at least for a while) and still do worthwhile damage. ECM becomes less of an issue because you can still dumbfire the lrms; you're getting into line of sight anyway to fire your main weapons.

You can also use your lrms to faze your main target while you're shooting at them. Being constantly pelted by lrms while dueling usually rattles your enemy enough so he misses shots he would otherwise have not. This works really well for clan lrms.

Is it more efficient than just adding more pulse lasers and more heatsinks? If you have the extra slots and hardpoints, probably not. But if you have no choice, an lrm 5 might be a better choice for that missile hardpoint than yet another heatsink.

[Haji1096]

LRMS aren't "noob" because of the mechanics involved in using them effectively. They are sub-optimal because using LRMS successfully depends on the enemy team making mistakes.

[Novakaine]

Well you know what i say........
Haters just gonna hate.

[Zerberus]

Haji1096, on 25 September 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

LRMS aren't "noob" because of the mechanics involved in using them effectively. They are sub-optimal because using LRMS successfully depends on the enemy team making mistakes.

But nobody EEEEVER makes mistakes, we all know everyone`s a "T1 player", even if they just started last week. That`s why LRMs simply MUST be OP and always have been, there is no other logical explanation. NERF! NERF! NERF NERF!!

Edited by Zerberus, 25 September 2015 - 04:52 AM.

[Lostdragon]

I spent some time leveling an alt account recently, and I found that not having Radar Deprivation made the game extremely frustrating, and I know the mechanics of LRMs very well so I understand how to use cover. I had forgotten just how big a difference that module can make in damage taken from LRMs, especially for slower mechs. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for a new player to get ripped up by LRMs with seemingly no way to get away on maps like Caustic.

[Novakaine]

Lostdragon, on 25 September 2015 - 04:56 AM, said:

I spent some time leveling an alt account recently, and I found that not having Radar Deprivation made the game extremely frustrating, and I know the mechanics of LRMs very well so I understand how to use cover. I had forgotten just how big a difference that module can make in damage taken from LRMs, especially for slower mechs. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for a new player to get ripped up by LRMs with seemingly no way to get away on maps like Caustic.

Heh I like to take my Orion VA or the Orion M out just to hunt down lights.
So satisfying lurming the litter buggers while pelting them with lazors and AC fire.
Ya gotta move from behind that rock sometimes

[Lugh]

Sputty, on 25 September 2015 - 04:19 AM, said:

Yes. A weapon that relies on exposing someone else to fire so that there are fewer targets exposed is useless. One of the key elements of firing lines in this game is exposing multiple people so a single person can't be easily targeted and killed by groups. If you're going to use LRMs and expose yourself anyway you may as well use a direct fire weapon that can target components and more reliably use through ECM and targeting issues.

Yes a weapon that can fire OVER the ******** that cut you off to shoot directly at enemies is 100% A number 1 USELESS. Much like that ******* that should get his back cored out for blocking your shot.

[Anyone00]

I've tried a couple of dedicated LRM mechs (keep in mind I always have at least two mlas for backup):
First is a TBT-7M with 2xLRM15, 10 tons of ammo, xl200, 2 mlas, 2 JJ: 2/3 of the time it was of little use (lots of emc), 1/3 it was a murder machine. What I did learn from it was: 1) know the map 2)keep moving 3)Stay with the pack 4) Typically only fire at over 800m (or even 600m) if you want to spook someone 5)You are bait, use that to your team's advantage
Second is a GRF-2N with 3xLRM5 (6 tons), NARC (2 tons), 2 mlas, xl300 (because that's what the meta builds use so I could always switch to those), 7JJ, ECM. Firstly let me say this build is intended for when teams form peek and poke firing lines in the general queue and would be pretty useless in CW. There are still times when I have little impact in a match with this mech but the rate of those times is only slightly higher then the rate of success I have will all direct fire builds: so over all I find this to be a somewhat effective build. The entire point of the build is to jump up, narc an enemy, and then to lay into them from relative safety forcing them to hunker down (effectively suppressing them), force them to withdraw some, force them to try to shot you (into the waiting line of site of my team mates), or they might actually start taking damage because they're in a spot they thought didn't have a sustained line of site. Plus I provide ECM cover for my team, can knock-out the EMC cover of fast mechs that try to do a wolf pack flanks (I'm still the bait), and in the off chance there are other LRM equipped mechs on my side it's a bit of force multiplier. I try to narc ECM equipped enemy units when I jump up but mass ECM can still be hard to deal with. Also being caught out of cover by multiple enemies is even worse then usual because my main weapons require continuous facing making it very easy be cored. And the mech operates primarily in the very particular range of 180m-450m so being able to dictate the range encounters take place is very important and can be rather difficult. I do find it to be one of my funner mech builds.

[Sputty]

Lugh, on 25 September 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

Yes a weapon that can fire OVER the ******** that cut you off to shoot directly at enemies is 100% A number 1 USELESS. Much like that ******* that should get his back cored out for blocking your shot.

You seem to be missing my point entirely. Perhaps you aren't really used to the idea of a mech as a team but while hiding behind a person so you can shoot over him or her you are forcing all damage to be fired at the exposed mechs, so one fewer mech. The armor and structure of a mech is an important part of a fight and if one team is exposing all their mechs so the damage is spread between them they will survive longer even if the same damage was being put out by both teams. This means that the team that has a mech that is never exposed, and at 100% health, will find himself alone as the members of his teams die faster than the opponent team. Even if the enemy mechs are now weakened fighting outnumbered will likely mean you'll die. The answer in a situation where people are cramped is to move to a spot next to your team, as you should be moving to poke from position to position to avoid being an easy target anyway.

Another problem with the spotter issue is that a spotter mech is an extremely obvious target, and often a weak light, who will die first. Also, with a spotter/LRM team to put out the damage of one mech you need another mech and instead of just having 2 combat mechs playing you are relying on having a combat mech and a scout mech. The game is 12v12 and that means if one mech isn't fighting as hard as other mechs that team will be at a disadvantage.

Indirect fire weapons are just not a smart idea with how MWO is fought.

[Otto Cannon]

Sputty, on 25 September 2015 - 03:27 AM, said:

It's easy to avoid LRMs. They're still a noob weapon and a trap for bad players to never improve.

All weapons are noob when used badly by noobs. Using LRMs will let you improve at using LRMs though.

You could just as well claim that lasers are a 'trap' because you won't improve your autocannon skills. Are gauss rifles a trap that stop you improving your SRM skills?

Also, did you just like your own post?

[Sputty]

Otto Cannon, on 25 September 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

All weapons are noob when used badly by noobs. Using LRMs will let you improve at using LRMs though.

You could just as well claim that lasers are a 'trap' because you won't improve your autocannon skills. Are gauss rifles a trap that stop you improving your SRM skills?

Also, did you just like your own post?

If I did not like my post I wouldn't have made it. Do you dislike your own posts?

You see a weakened side torso with a laser, autocannon, gauss, you target it and blow it off.
You see a weakened torso with a LRM and you just fire because it doesn't matter. If you start playing LRMs and keeping playing LRMs you will not learn key components on mechs. Not being able to aim at components is a huge disadvantage and not worth what little benefit you gain from not having to aim directly at the components you want to hit but instead aiming in the general targeting box direction. You'll also delay learning how to fight without ECM because you'll be relying on targeting and being able to identify weak spots on mechs with no paper doll is something everyone learns to do over time. You'll avoid learning how to poke quickly or push because you are primarily using a stand-off weapon.

Those skills are much more important than knowing when to fire LRMs so they don't hit a building or knowing what targets will stay long enough for missiles to hit because they are important in every mech.

[Weeny Machine]

Dunno why people call missiles those things...

1. noob weapons
Yup, hitscan weapon with no velocity and instant damage (at least a portion) are noob...oh wait those are lasers.Point is: if you want to be effective missiles are not easy to use
ECM, low velocity etc make the use of missile hard.

However, I hope they change ECM and the missile lock mechanics. Both are no fun imo.

2. killstealers
I do not play LRM mechs often. However, when I do I usually soften up the enemy only to have it killed by a direct fire mech. So much for killstealing

[Otto Cannon]

Sputty, on 25 September 2015 - 06:47 AM, said:

If I did not like my post I wouldn't have made it. Do you dislike your own posts?

You see a weakened side torso with a laser, autocannon, gauss, you target it and blow it off.
You see a weakened torso with a LRM and you just fire because it doesn't matter. If you start playing LRMs and keeping playing LRMs you will not learn key components on mechs. Not being able to aim at components is a huge disadvantage and not worth what little benefit you gain from not having to aim directly at the components you want to hit but instead aiming in the general targeting box direction. You'll also delay learning how to fight without ECM because you'll be relying on targeting and being able to identify weak spots on mechs with no paper doll is something everyone learns to do over time. You'll avoid learning how to poke quickly or push because you are primarily using a stand-off weapon.

Those skills are much more important than knowing when to fire LRMs so they don't hit a building or knowing what targets will stay long enough for missiles to hit because they are important in every mech.

Even assuming that someone only uses LRM mechs (which I've never heard of in reality), they'd still use those same skills when fighting in close with their backup weapons. Aiming at damaged sections is pretty basic and quickly learned. To get good with support weapons also means you have to develop excellent overall battlefield awareness. It's about sacrificing your personal kill count to suppress enemies firing at your team, and stripping armour from careless targets to make kills easier for your team.

Knowing how to use LRMs isn't a problem for people playing the full game. If you only want to learn the narrow tier 1 meta then feel free not to use them yourself, but in that case don't bother commenting in LRM threads where you have no knowledge or experience.