28 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Kiiyor, on 07 January 2015 - 10:23 PM, said:

It depends on the style of fight, IMHO.

The Clans are ideally suited to long range standoffs here, as the ability to seek cover and cool between magnificent huge alpha strikes is a perfect playstyle for them (barring a few outliers, like the MadCat which can sustain an infuriating level of DPS in pretty much any build). If Clan mechs can hold the IS at range, or force a peek-off, they usually dominate (PPC-Bolt be damned!)

Cooler quirked 'Sphere mechs are great if everyone commits to a rush and sustained brawl, but the 'Sphere forces still run the risk of taking a huge amount of damage at the beginning of a fight, and being less viable for continued brawling. In my experience, CLG affects the 'Sphere more than the Clans, when many IS mechs resort to XL engines to bring enough gun to Clan fights - though if a Sphere force can stay intact, and get close enough to force a melee, they seem to have a decent advantage.

It almost balances out, and I love the fact that each faction has a unique flavour in this regard.

Sure. This is why I don't necessarily have problems with the overall design, but it still needs work. It's very much like Protoss (strong units, but requirement more time to optimize) vs Zerg (weak units, but completely rely on numbers) in Starcraft that requires very much some intricate balance. Still, I've only simplified the idea to its basic roots. Some things you can still mitigate with good teammates... so things can become more complicated with other factors (like tactics or just the overall approach).

Ultimatum X, on 07 January 2015 - 10:23 PM, said:

That's not enough of the picture.

The Griffin is an amazingly maneuverable mech with fantastic hitboxes. With a large engine, it's like the Spider's 55T cousin.

I'm pretty sure it had more torso twisting speed prior to the quirks. I could be wrong.

My memory is a little fuzzy at what those numbers were.

Quote

Some IS 55 tonners were bizarrely skipped over, because PGI did not accurately judge where Shadowhawks were at the time.

That sounds like so many other things PGI is not good at doing.

Quote

The other issue is that while yes, you could bring 2x 55 tonners and 2x 65 Tonners, it's a better deal to bring 3x 65 Tonners + 1 x35 Tonner. Or hell, lose some tonnage and just do 65x2 + 35x2.

It was a popular, top performing mech. But it's still a medium mech, with many medium mech woes.

I honestly don't remember many woes with the Stormcrow TBH... outside of not having JJs.

Quote

The Nova needing buffs has zero to do with the Storm Crow.

You don't punt the smart kid at school in the head, just because some other kid sucks at math.

Technically it does, but not in the same sense. Had we been still using some of the old numbers (and this means no Ghost Heat), the Nova would probably hold an actual niche despite its current set of flaws. Of course, there's a natural tendency to compare the options, and say "the Stormcrow" is better even before we factor in the whole min-maxing thing. I'm not saying the Nova couldn't hold its own before, but other circumstances have changed the landscape for the Nova's existence... so much so that it stopped becoming a valid alternative. I mean, it holds the title of "Only Clan Medium with JJs" and that's the best anyone can say of it at the moment (well, that and "Only Mech That Has The Most Energy Hardpoints (13E)"). That's just sad.

Edited by Deathlike, 07 January 2015 - 10:48 PM.

[Metus regem]

Brody319, on 07 January 2015 - 10:20 PM, said:

I use the best loadouts and play them exactly how others play them but I don't feel like I am doing very well and they are pretty dull. I prefer IS mediums just for their unique feel. though I'm going to be grinding up that sweet sweet Maddog soon so I gotta save up.

I tried all the "meta" builds, Kerensky I hate that word "meta", but I just do not do well with the Storm Crow, she is my worst performing chassis, slightly worse than the Dire Wolf....

The Timber does well for me, but my Hellbringers are quickly out pacing it.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 07 January 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:

I honestly don't remember many woes with the Stormcrow TBH... outside of not having JJs.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant the Shadowhawk.

However, even the Storm Crow is a medium mech, it withers under fire.

The problem is, many people still shoot at torsos, just like they do for lights, or Centurions, or Griffins (all mechs you are often better off legging).


Shoot their legs. They crumble quick.

Deathlike, on 07 January 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:

Technically it does, but not in the same sense. Had we been still using some of the old numbers (and this means no Ghost Heat), the Nova would probably hold an actual niche despite its current set of flaws.

The Nova is close to using the old heat numbers for CERMLAS at least.


OLD 6x CERMLAS = 30 Heat
NOW 6x CERMLAS = 36 Heat
NVA 6x CERMLAS = 32.4 Heat (-10% quirk total)

32.4 heat for 42 damage @ 405m (no mod) is pretty good IMO, the closest comparison of 4x LLAS at 36 damage costs 37.4 heat but also weighs an extra 14 tons....



On top of that, I remember clan pre-launch testing.


Neither Stormcrow nor Timber Wolf got CERSLAS nerfed.

The Nova got them nerfed.

The CERSLAS were extremely cool, 2 heat for 5 damage.

12 heat to fire one arm, for 30 damage - ending up in short range was basically game over as they could back to back 30 point alpha you repeatedly. I was OK with it due to the range needed to play at.


People complained, I wasn’t one of them, but people complained.





The Nova does hold a niche, the problem is that niches require that gameplay opportunity to often present itself in order to provide value.

Extreme short range bralwer, in public queues, is a really low opportunity most of the time and CW modes (while they often have brawl phases) have enough randomness that it's not a safe bet.



Anyway my opinion on the Nova is that people focus too much on ALL THE LAZORS, or overheating.

Those aren't the problems. It can have nearly as many DHS as a Storm Crow can.

The problems IMO, are:

1: Geometry. The Nova NEEDS Arm structure & armor quirks. They are too critical to functioning to be that large and easy to remove. The STs and maybe even legs should get some of that kind of buff as well.

2: Agility - For a 50 ton mech, it feels like it's feet are in cement buckets. IMO, the Nova should have gotten the agility buffs the Summoner got. Extra agility translates directly into skill based survivability boosts.








Ultimately my position is yes, the Nova needs some tweaks, but that does not mean the Storm Crow (which is the mech this thread is supposed to be about) needs nerfs.




You of all people need to see this, because you often rail against Paul & PGI balance decisions.

Look at what happened when they finally caved into all of the endless tears and nerfed Victors and Highlanders.


It took something like 8 months before you saw the majority of players actually returning to use their Victors - and "LOWLANDERS" still haven't recovered.


We reap what we sow, PGI doesn't randomly smack mechs for shits and giggles - they are responding to what they think this (bi-polar) player base thinks it wants.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 08 January 2015 - 09:55 AM.

[blood4blood]

Generally I favor buffing under-performing mechs rather than nerfing the strong ones. In this case, I think the "nerfs" Deathlike suggested are pretty reasonable. Theorycrafting the SCR doesn't seem that OP, but having just leveled the three variants to elite, I've got to admit it's the most consistently high-performing medium I've played in MWO. The suggested changes would still leave the SCR with tons of firepower and versatility, but reductions enough to bring it more in line with other mediums. So in that sense, good ideas even though I'm against nerfs generally.

On the other hand, mediums have long been the red-headed stepchildren of MWO, all too often underperforming relative to all the other weight classes. For that reason I still think I'd rather see other meds get buffed up, using the SCR as the baseline for comparison, because I'd be concerned otherwise that mediums will just go back to all seeming like Tier 2-and-under mechs.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 08 January 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant the Shadowhawk.

However, even the Storm Crow is a medium mech, it withers under fire.

The problem is, many people still shoot at torsos, just like they do for lights, or Centurions, or Griffins (all mechs you are often better off legging).


Shoot their legs. They crumble quick.

Well, legging does work. However, Stormcrows don't even crumble the same way the Shadowhawk does due to how XL engines work between IS and Clan.

Quote

The Nova is close to using the old heat numbers for CERMLAS at least.


OLD 6x CERMLAS = 30 Heat
NOW 6x CERMLAS = 36 Heat
NVA 6x CERMLAS = 32.4 Heat (-10% quirk total)

32.4 heat for 42 damage @ 405m (no mod) is pretty good IMO, the closest comparison of 4x LLAS at 36 damage costs 37.4 heat but also weighs an extra 14 tons....



On top of that, I remember clan pre-launch testing.


Neither Stormcrow nor Timber Wolf got CERSLAS nerfed.

The Nova got them nerfed.

The CERSLAS were extremely cool, 2 heat for 5 damage.

12 heat to fire one arm, for 30 damage - ending up in short range was basically game over as they could back to back 30 point alpha you repeatedly. I was OK with it due to the range needed to play at.


People complained, I wasn’t one of them, but people complained.

At the time (prior to Ghost Heat), people were at least "attempting" 6 CERMEDS + 6 CERSML/CSPL. Right now, it's better regulated to 12 or 13 CERSML. It's not really in the same ballpark at this point.

Sure, the Timberwolf nor Stormcrow (or any other Clan Mech for that matter) caused the ghost heat linkage... but that's problem in a nutshell. The Ghost Heat specific nerfs really did the Nova far more damage even if it was the overheating one-trick pony.

Quote

The Nova does hold a niche, the problem is that niches require that gameplay opportunity to often present itself in order to provide value.

Extreme short range bralwer, in public queues, is a really low opportunity most of the time and CW modes (while they often have brawl phases) have enough randomness that it's not a safe bet.



Anyway my opinion on the Nova is that people focus too much on ALL THE LAZORS, or overheating.

Those aren't the problems. It can have nearly as many DHS as a Storm Crow can.

The problems IMO, are:

1: Geometry. The Nova NEEDS Arm structure & armor quirks. They are too critical to functioning to be that large and easy to remove. The STs and maybe even legs should get some of that kind of buff as well.

2: Agility - For a 50 ton mech, it feels like it's feet are in cement buckets. IMO, the Nova should have gotten the agility buffs the Summoner got. Extra agility translates directly into skill based survivability boosts.

I've never felt it was "cement" due to the number of hardlocked JJs it had (speaking from grinding out the Summoner and Mist Lynx which suffers that same fate). They do need more agility buffs, but not because JJs were bad (they are primarily that for the Highlander).... it's because there's so much the mech is attempting to compensate for.

Quote

Ultimately my position is yes, the Nova needs some tweaks, but that does not mean the Storm Crow (which is the mech this thread is supposed to be about) needs nerfs.

I know there's too many good things going on that allows the Stormcrow to be good. While I'd rather have quirks/buffs improve the bad Clan mechs first, if it is necessary despite after the buffs that the Stormcrow needs a nerf, then it has to be revisited. I cannot leave balance strictly to my own personal bias... I have to compare everything else to death until it is "within reason". I can't honestly leave that up to PGI or people that defend their favorite mechs. You have to be honest with yourself and not be too fixated on just one thing.. there are always other things down the line that will change my tune just as much as yours, and things have to be readjusted to the new norm.

Quote

You of all people need to see this, because you often rail against Paul & PGI balance decisions.

Look at what happened when they finally caved into all of the endless tears and nerfed Victors and Highlanders.


It took something like 8 months before you saw the majority of players actually returning to use their Victors - and "LOWLANDERS" still haven't recovered.


We reap what we sow, PGI doesn't randomly smack mechs for shits and giggles - they are responding to what they think this (bi-polar) player base thinks it wants.

It's not as simple. I rail against most really obviously bad PGI decisions because the impact isn't really analyzed properly by them. They don't even quantify, qualify, compare, or just anything that is sensible to the normal person. I mean, it took FOREVER before pulse lasers were "properly normalized" (CLPL/LPL being the outliers at the moment) with heat, because for some strange reason "additional heat" over the non pulse version seems to be justified over tonnage and range considerations (despite having more reasonable durations... which wasn't actually the case even before that occurred and took far too long to correct).

When I suggest balance changes, if I'm vague on it, I'm probably not having a conclusive enough thought process to put down numbers... like JJ height/lift (it's a mystery at times). If I have specifics, I tend to have a better grasp on what needs to be done. I'm not infallible. I can admit to being wrong, but when I had to justify unnerfing the Victors... and debating with certain people on that very matter. Initially I thought it would solve stuff (keeping the red streak of nerfs on that terrible list), but obviously it hurt EVERYONE ELSE except the top level. Even AFTER removing the nerfs, the Victor is not quite the mech it once was... and some part of that were the JJ nerfs.

As much as I have my opinions on things... let me be clear. I reserve the right to change my mind over time, especially when things change. When the PPC nerf (from 1400 m/s to the 850m/s PPCs and 950m/s ERPPCs), I had originally said something along the lines of "L2P". Months later, I barely see PPCs of any sort (well, besides the Thunderbolt-9S variety), and it's all laservomit EVEN after a few buffs to it. Frankly, evaluating things "in a flash" is only good for an initial reaction, and not always a lasting long term answer.

The thing about players when they overreact and whine, is that you can't ALWAYS listen to them. I remember a particular change in Warcraft 3 (yea, a long time ago, so whatever) where a particular spell was changed in dramatic fashion. It's hard to explain it other than it was difficult to balance in its previous state... where it was very easy to counter... and if left uncountered would be very powerful. While the change itself was arguably controversial and people were arguing about it to the death, it allowed that particular spell to serve a COMPLETELY different role than it had originally intended to be (it couldn't actually be countered in the traditional way, but the functionality was a form of an armor buff of sorts). Anyways, it sounds more or less like ECM, but this is PGI, and not Blizzard, so go figure.

Sometimes people honestly need to filter out what is being argued over the people that demand a nerf and never explain why nor how to fix it (outside of removing/disabling it). It's kind of the unproductive stuff that people need to get their heads around in any serious balance discussion.

PGI always manages to use the supernerf gun with the overbuff hammer on many changes, so I guess you have to pick and choose which arguments are more deserving of merit over the people on the inside that "think" they have the solution when they are doing the changes for selfish reasons. I will always admit my balance changes are not the best, but I've put down my answer and am more than willing to refine it. That's more than can be said for many individuals, including PGI, when it comes to that matter.

[Aethon]

This is going to sound really weird, but...my SCR-Prime is pretty much stock. I think I adjusted the armor a bit, but I have found it to work quite well as it is. I sold one of the three, though; I never really use the SCR very often.

The Nova, though...looking forward to some kind of buff, and I hope they take the low/wide weapon hardpoints into consideration.

[Wintersdark]

I still think they ought to nerf clan XL's a bit first, rather than directly needing the TBR and SCR - a speed penalty when a ST is destroyed. IS vs. clans, that Clan XL is the real sticking point. Then unlock ES/FF and quirk the rest. I really don't want to see the SCR and TBR beaten with the nerf bat the victors were.

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 08 January 2015 - 02:36 PM, said:

I still think they ought to nerf clan XL's a bit first, rather than directly needing the TBR and SCR - a speed penalty when a ST is destroyed. IS vs. clans, that Clan XL is the real sticking point. Then unlock ES/FF and quirk the rest. I really don't want to see the SCR and TBR beaten with the nerf bat the victors were.

A speed penalty is what I'm thinking is needed... either a 10% to 15% minimum nerf to speed.. or an "engine size" based nerf (smaller engines get smaller speed penalties, although that would hurt the poor Gargoyle the most).

There's so many other options to be had, but so many things need to be considered before the absolute worst must occur.

Edited by Deathlike, 08 January 2015 - 02:40 PM.

[Lily from animove]

Ultimatum X, on 07 January 2015 - 06:01 PM, said:

Honestly, I think the Storm Crow is fine.

We have a medium mech that is top tier, that's a good thing.

A lot of the "it's OP" is usually comes from people still trying to target it's STs - you remove it's legs, and it goes down easy.



That's also how you deal with other relatively fast mechs or mechs with "unique" geometry like all light mechs, or "may or may not have STD" engine Centurions and Griffins.



I've seen complaints that "it's too fast", which is nonsense. It has a 330xl, it paid the tonnage for it.

If you put an engine that big in your Shadowhawk or Griffin, they get to be that fast too.


Usually it's mostly light pilots who complain about it's speed.

given the SCR pilot is using cover incorrectly always exposing his legs. Hills are your friend and cover your legs very well. Also Nova has the same bad legs with even les armro + crappy upper hitboxes, so how is that SCR not OP again?

Ultimatum X, on 08 January 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

[/size]


Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant the Shadowhawk.

However, even the Storm Crow is a medium mech, it withers under fire.

The problem is, many people still shoot at torsos, just like they do for lights, or Centurions, or Griffins (all mechs you are often better off legging).


Shoot their legs. They crumble quick.





[size=4]

The Nova is close to using the old heat numbers for CERMLAS at least.


OLD 6x CERMLAS = 30 Heat
NOW 6x CERMLAS = 36 Heat
NVA 6x CERMLAS = 32.4 Heat (-10% quirk total)

32.4 heat for 42 damage @ 405m (no mod) is pretty good IMO, the closest comparison of 4x LLAS at 36 damage costs 37.4 heat but also weighs an extra 14 tons....



On top of that, I remember clan pre-launch testing.


Neither Stormcrow nor Timber Wolf got CERSLAS nerfed.

The Nova got them nerfed.

The CERSLAS were extremely cool, 2 heat for 5 damage.

12 heat to fire one arm, for 30 damage - ending up in short range was basically game over as they could back to back 30 point alpha you repeatedly. I was OK with it due to the range needed to play at.


People complained, I wasn’t one of them, but people complained.





The Nova does hold a niche, the problem is that niches require that gameplay opportunity to often present itself in order to provide value.

Extreme short range bralwer, in public queues, is a really low opportunity most of the time and CW modes (while they often have brawl phases) have enough randomness that it's not a safe bet.



Anyway my opinion on the Nova is that people focus too much on ALL THE LAZORS, or overheating.

Those aren't the problems. It can have nearly as many DHS as a Storm Crow can.

The problems IMO, are:

1: Geometry. The Nova NEEDS Arm structure & armor quirks. They are too critical to functioning to be that large and easy to remove. The STs and maybe even legs should get some of that kind of buff as well.

2: Agility - For a 50 ton mech, it feels like it's feet are in cement buckets. IMO, the Nova should have gotten the agility buffs the Summoner got. Extra agility translates directly into skill based survivability boosts.

i say this since ages, it needs the dragon buffs fir some HP and agility buffs. legs are fin tbh, i even run them with 8 less amror and hardly get legged, I man why would oen with that CT? the mech needs some CT and arm hp, maybe even some sidetorso Hp. it is for an skilled pilot hard to not hit the nova where you want, and on top of this the nova die to wideness cna not hide the CT, because you either hit the nose or the CT.

this is the Novas biggest issue since ever. Yes the heat nerf striked it, yet I only had to drop the 4 MG's to still fire both arms in volleys.

Edited by Lily from animove, 08 January 2015 - 03:20 PM.