82 replies to this topic

[LastKhan]

Not saying it wasnt. Doesnt mean we can both agree for once how bad it is while semi staying on track.

Also theres no need for offense like your used to, just sayin; You stinky surat.

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 22 January 2015 - 04:36 PM.

[InspectorG]

Kyocera, on 08 January 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

Basically Space Communists right?

I though the intended theme was tribal space mongols?

[Amarus Cameron]

Loved Jaroth's post that had that long explanation, read the whole thing. The only bit a disagreed with was the second to last paragraph about Clan Smoke Jaguar, being part of the clan for just about my whole life, following it's lore, asking questions of writers and developers I found that had Lincoln Osis not become Khan of the Clan, the Jaguar's would have gone down a very different path. He raised the right warriors to positions of responsibility to make the wrong decisions for the clan. Had Brandon Howell challenged him after Tukayyid the clan would have most likely survived without having to rebuild from nothing.



(*Yes I realize I said we came back from nothing, if you want to argue the point PM me, too long for forums =P*)

[Jaroth Corbett]

As a former Jaguar, I have to disagree with you Amarus my friend. Look at what happened at the Londerholm revolt. Things were bad before scientists even thought of creating Lincoln Osis & his sibko.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 09 January 2015 - 12:16 PM.

[Alexander Steel]

Maybe, once the Entire IS decided to play crush Smoke Jag, it didn't really have a chance. In order to not have been crushed they'd have to go all the way back to the call to blast Turtle Bay from orbit.

[CyclonerM]

Marack Drock, on 09 January 2015 - 07:35 AM, said:

Props for Lore Cycloner.

No props for saying stuff that not even Clan Wolf would say though.

I am not too sure you got my point Marack..

Quote

sarcasm is so trendy these days

Basically i meant to say that IS and Clans are indeed very similar in many aspects.

On the cartoons bit, teaching kids the value of the society they live in is not inherently a bad thing. I remember most cartoons i watched as a kid were focused on friendship, courage, etc. you know, those kind of positive values in our RL society
p.s. I just discovered that irony is considered an actual figure of speech

[Amarus Cameron]

Jaroth, as a current Jaguar I will disagree with you.

Who was that book written by, Comstar, all of the clan source books are, aside from the ones written by Phelan Kell and I'm not even going there. The OOC writers all have agreed that there was definitely misdirection used in their publication for perception of the clans.

I knew Londerholm would be brought up. The dispute was not because the warriors were demanding more, the dispute was because the merchants wanted to be apart from the order of things, they held back on what was promised, and they were working in dishonorable ways, such as monopolistic practices, and price fixing. The specific group on londerholm was a rats nest and when they thought they could actually obtain weapons for their own purposes is when the Warrior caste reacted in such a way, they would never have attacked their own otherwise. Though I will not argue that i was handled poorly. It surely was, and was a clear waste of resources and people's lives. The restrictions that "caused" this were because of the aforementioned practices. Also just a note, if you cannot see that "And naturally the clan council saw to it that most of the planet's food went to the clan's warriors" is crap then I can't convince you of anything. Less than 1% of any clan is a warrior, and even if they eat an amazing amount of food, it would not all go to warriors, that's just crap.

Edited by Amarus Cameron, 09 January 2015 - 01:22 PM.

[Khanahar]

Technical correction: Buddhism is caste-less. Hinduism is probably what is meant.

[Jaroth Corbett]

I am not going to dismiss a document because it was written by Comstar. Remember they would have spoken to various Loremasters to get background info. In any event, there is a version compiled by Jaime Wolf.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 09 January 2015 - 08:18 PM.

[Alexander Steel]

Remember that all lore can end up favoring your faction when you choose to completely ignore what is written because you really really don't like how it makes your faction look.


Liao: None of our leaders were actually insane, that's just how the biased lore books were written.. the truth is much different.

Kurita: The Kentares thing didn't actually happen, that was just the writers deciding to make us look bad by having an unreliable narrator, any thing you read about that isn't true.

Wolf : We actually won the trial to stop the Clan Invasion, however after seeing the poor Smoke Jags crying about not getting to blow up planets with their warships we felt so bad for them we let them have their invasion.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 10 January 2015 - 01:06 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Marack Drock, on 10 January 2015 - 02:25 AM, said:

you make a point.

My view is this: The writers made the lore and it doesn't matter from which perspective it is really written. Lore is lore no matter the perspective. Unless there are multiple violations, retcons, contradictions, etc I do not know why we can't take it at its face value. As he said above anything written by the factions themselves will be biased so having a third party like ComStar write it is going to end up being more accurate than having biased Capellans and FedSuns say the Clans were mass murderers hell bent on killing everyone and everything.

There are actually in some sources some contradictions or ambiguity when facts are told by different sources, say ComStar and a Clan, because the perspective actually matters a lot, unless we talk about hard facts like a massacre of countless innocents, when it is hard to refuse it ever happened..

[KHAN ATTAKHAN]

Whilst I respect the right of all to have these discussions this kind of topic needs its own place in the forum, might be a little hardcore for the uninitiated and new to the game checking out the forums and could scare some new people off, all the talk of lore is a little much sometimes.
With all respect.

[CyclonerM]

ATTAKHAN666, on 10 January 2015 - 04:49 AM, said:

Whilst I respect the right of all to have these discussions this kind of topic needs its own place in the forum, might be a little hardcore for the uninitiated and new to the game checking out the forums and could scare some new people off, all the talk of lore is a little much sometimes.
With all respect.

Maybe "Battletech discussion"? But this is a thread about the Clan factions, so it seems to me the right section. And, with all due respect, some might be interested , while those who are not could just skip over thead

[Alexander Steel]

CyclonerM, on 10 January 2015 - 04:29 AM, said:

unless we talk about hard facts like a massacre of countless innocents, when it is hard to refuse it ever happened..

I don't know, you have people who manage that feat in the real world every day.....


As to the point of the books. Clearly there are several different levels of "accurate" books.

1. During the Jihad they purposefully flipped to a more chaotic less crunchy source book that had all reports be eyewitness reports that were at times completely wrong. They did this on purpose, and even told people that they felt it more accurately reflected the uncertain nature of what was going on during the Jihad. This is the only time they said that they made their source books purposefully filled with misinformation. However after the event was over they would publish new source books that would be back to the crunchy information without anything wrong on purpose. Which they did with things like their field manual 3145 and the like.

2. Everything published was listed as being published by ComStar as sort of a fun way to make the books more grounded in the lore of the game, it also let them explain away things they wanted to RetCon later. However the intent never was to have the books be unreliable. In fact when they lore wasn't sure one way or the other they pointed it out in the text. One example of a famous retcon was the Ghost Mech ability originally was supposed to be almost mystical like thing, but was later retconned to be just wild exaggerations and people mis-remembering things or getting caught up in the legend.

3. Every faction has dark parts in their history that portray them poorly or they wish had gone a different way. Out right ignoring the lore when it comes to those parts is just silly.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 10 January 2015 - 05:53 AM.

[Codeine Radick]

Meritocratic Socialism.

[Lily from animove]

Marack Drock, on 09 January 2015 - 07:35 AM, said:

Props for Lore Cycloner.

No props for saying stuff that not even Clan Wolf would say though.

The Clans only created these War Game Rules to minimize casualties and to reduce war. It was actually an act of peace and a way to keep full blown battles from coming up when they come.

As for the Inner Sphere at peace when the Clans before they left.... no. Richard Davion withdrew his support from the Star League before Alexandr left. What happened next was complicated. They appointed Alexandr head of the Defense Forces to guard Simon Cameron's son (Richard II). Simon had died with his Peace Legislation a failure because they could not end war between Kruita and Davion nor suppress the Liaos or the original peoples of Free Rasalhague's league who had been unwillingly taken by the Dracs.

On top of this the Leader of the Rim World's Republic Stephan Amaris began to "work his way in as a friend" of young Richard II. Stephan eventually gained the friendship of Richard and began influencing his decisions. This eventually led the SLDF to be withdrawn from the RWR and much of its technology was stolen to help them in the process.

Next Amaris poisoned Richard's mind so that he would view the House Lords and Kerensky all as against him and this started his true downfall when the Periphery exploded into war again.Kerensky tried to defend Richard and Amaris while the war worked its way to Terra until it was finally overrun with over 100 million people killed in the struggle. Amaris and his family were executed by Kerensky when he found out what he had done. Richard Cameron was assassinated at only 22.

After this the House Lords began to meet to decide who was the new Lord of the Star League but each claimed it him/herself and as the Star League eroded Kerensky left. Kerensky left and saved 80% of the SLDF doing it. Whereas the Inner Sphere fell into 300 years of war that would have happened with or without Kerensky.

As for agreeing the Inner Sphere is better.... Word of Blake...... In our entirety of combat the Word of Blake still has the largest casualty count of any faction followed by the Draconis Combine and Smoke Jaguar respectively. I think we can all agree nothing is worse than the Blakists. Also if I recall the Rasalhague Dominion didn't seem to care that much after a few years of living with the Ghost Bear Dominion. They ended up completing Kerensky's dream and were the only Clan to do so.

Thing is that this is the Inner Sphere-
Capellan Confederation- A Dictatorship held together by slavery
Draconis Combine- Honor obsessed fanatics willing to slit their own throats and go kamikaze (even Clansmen won't)
Free World's League- They supported Word of Blake and are at constant Civil war because half are madmen and half are fanatics.
Free Rasalhague League- Only truly good faction because they only sought freedom and that was it (and did have it under the Clan rule).
Lyran Commonwealth- Filled with fanatical leaders obsessed with war and power over the people of which Katherine/Katrina is worst
Federated Commonwealth- the made out to good guys who suck at everything involving peace and don't have leaders with a backbone i.e. Victor Davion
ComStar- A secretive organization that is filled with religious fanatics and crazies that it hides even after helping to destroy it. It also secretly tries to run every country in the background.

In short none of these factions of the FRR have any redeeming features. They never cared for the Star League and as seen above never wanted anything to do with peace.

Kind of like all the real world factions quiaff? I can make every single kid's tale today look bad want a list?
Santa Clause- A STALKER who watches you all year to make sure you are good if you are not you get punished. Sounds like something the government does. You know they can trace every phone call, text, and website you visit? And punish people frequently about it.
Peter Pan- well he is a kid who likes to sneak into children's bedrooms at night to watch them under the pretense of "catching his shadow". Government likes to watch you and monitor you too.
Little Mermaid-Stalker promoting inter species relationship i.e. she ain't Human but is after one.
Beauty and the Beast- same as Little Mermaid
Pocahontas-About a stereotype of a native American who falls in love with a man then says its okay to let them invade and massacre her people.

I could go on and on but point is.... how are these normal? Many are indoctrination into a society by filling kids head's with crap, dumbing them down so they can't make rational choices. Education is dying every year. So yeah nothing new. Clans are just as normal as we are now.

Yes, they glorify combat but............. So did everyone from 10,000 BC till about 1700 AD. And even then there are some things I could mention like the slaughter of the Native Americans and a few people and countries i.e. Mao, Stalin, {Godwin's Law}, Adolf and more. But I think you get the picture. We still glorify war a little. At least Clan's made rules so not as many people would die. Would really help in cases like- WWII, Revolutionary War, Crusades, Rome, and more where slaughter of everything and everyone was normal don't you think quiaff? or do you think that no rules just shoot everything that moves is better?

In short it is a judgement of morals. Morals are decided by a person really. In religion they are preset but in society they change anywhere you go. I think Clan Wolf is the best by far with my only other inclinations being FRR and Ghost Bear. Thus they are right for me using society's moral judgement.

Edit- Also combat wise.... don't we glorify Championship wrestling matches and boxing, sword play, and other stuff too... isn't that glorifying combat?

how are they normal? they ARE NORAML, this is mankind, this is not the ideal everyone tells us how it should be, but this is the normal truth about how mankind is.
The way to rule people is to indoctrinate people what is "wrong" while reserving while you reserve this method for you by any explanaition that makes "sense". Sense at least within the doctrin. Whatever caters the own need is ok, whatever caters the others is wrong.

burn an US flag within the US, get in trouble. (wasn't there supposed to be freedom of speech? Well there is at long as you say what they waant to hear)
Burn an flag of a hated county, be a hero.

and if you are in the hated country, its the whole opposite.

this is wrong by logic and ideals, yet this is normal by mankind. because mankind works like that basically since ever. The only thing that changed are the tools we use. bakc there it was club vs club between different opinion and cultures, now its called terror and missiles. And the diference between a terrorist, rebel, freedom fighter or hero? The side observing him in relation to who he caters.

Half the values we have are either illusions or lies, and many alternate universe, may this be warhammer or battletech take these and use them for their stories, making them a bit of a critic or parody of them as well.
This makes thes euniverse also partially fun, becuase it adds the freedom we are sometimes restricted to say, because we can't critisze specific things in RL, but we can ciritisize the exact counterpart in that alternate Universe.

[Alexander Steel]

Quote

The only thing most people can ever agree on is: Murder is wrong.

Not even that or we wouldn't have wars.

[CyclonerM]

"Nothing is true, everything is permitted" is dense of meanings..

[Himmelganger]

Quote

Maybe but.......... then again Clan society doesn't mirror Communist society well when you get to its fundamentals. Also we have to consider the Cold War was most influential in the 50s and 60s. By the 80s the Cold Wars yes was technically still going but heck no one cared about it.

Not care about it? I wager you did not live through that time period Marack Drock, hell the early 80ies where some of the coldest period of the cold war, there was the deployment of MRBM in Europe, which gave rise to a lot of debate and demonstrations. President Reagen upped the ante with his huge increase in defense spending, which gave rise to more spending on the soviet side. No the 80ies was very much part of the cold war, and it was not over or dead by any means.

Edited by Himmelganger, 14 January 2015 - 05:43 PM.

[Noesis]

Truth is not absolute and is taken from a point of perspective. "One persons freedom fighter is another mans terrorist"

Do you know the reasons behind why members of the Dark Born might have been "pushed" into this by the interpretation placed onto them by the Clan culture. In this way the stereotypical idea that we are all supposed to be some kind of murderers and rapists when this may not be the case only helps to demonstrate the prejudicial views. Since I guess it is then easier for the Clans to deny or ignore the "failures" as they would put it in their society.