Marack Drock, on 15 January 2015 - 05:52 PM, said:
Well if you don't agree with the Clans then... you aren't clan. And as you guys (in lore) do raid and assault us regularly it makes you the very definition of a terrorist. Perspective doesn't take away or give to what is written in lore. In lore you: broke Clan law, were dishonorable, and denied Clan ways... thus you are not Clan by definition. I mean this is a Clan Government thread. If you do not abide by any Clan Government or its principles you are not Clan. This is why the Not Named are so. Because they denied Clan ways and are in reality not Clan.
Hence why the Guy Fawkes dissonant figure was used since as a Clanner you believe your system of government to be correct and have a sanctimonious position about this. Any non-conformist views excludes more "creative" thinking or freedoms of behaviour and expression. This not neccesarily in the context of breaking Clan law (as would be recognised in the criminal perspective, though from lore this includes these elements also) but could just be disenfranchied members of your society not holding to the same beliefs and therefore "rejected" as a part of official Clan soceity.
Marack Drock, on 15 January 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:
Well this also indicates many of you willingly fled also meaning you wished to leave the Clan life meaning you are not Clan. Here is the thing Clan Society has strict rules and guidelines and in the Clans you follow those rules. If you don't instead of prison... you are exiled. That is how the Clans work if you don't agree with those laws you are like the Not-Named who didn't either. You guys according to that are like the Mafia. You are enemies of the public, and show yourselves that way because you constantly raid. So this means by definition of the Clans you are not. The definition of Clan defies what you are. Every writer and source book says you are not a part of the Clans.
Perspective has no ground when you are against set lore. Lore is what made this Government what it is and Lore decides what you are. If you are outcast from Clan society, or you left it you are NOT Clan. I am just stating the truth. Clan Government is what makes the Clan. If you are against it you are not part of it or society. The facts are the facts. Anyways we are back on the subject of what makes Clan Society and Government and what type of Government could it be classified as?
No, lore defines the history and traditions of a culture. And when written by the governements then of course this will reflect their point of view.
The representation of that history then not the absolute truth or correct recognition of an effective mode of government.
I'm not denying that the Dark Born are outcasts though am I?
This fact does not make the Clan basis of government "correct" or that it does not have its own associated problems as a result. Clearly the very existance of the Dark Caste should point to this or from a point of perspective from the Dark Caste repressive or oppressive.
As such all these things very relevant to the discussion concerning Clan politics.
Marack Drock, on 15 January 2015 - 07:44 PM, said:
True but if you are outcasts then how can you have a perspective in a society you are no longer a part of?
Also I am not denying the Clan Government may or may not have issues. I am Warden. Says enough of what I think about Crusader style Government.
But we are a part of your society. We are embedded into your culture, sometimes even clandestine within your Clans.
Just because your social decorum or etiquette doesn't recognise us officially, does not mean that we are not there. Or that we have various underhand dealings with the various Clans. Denial in this context from the Clan perspective as per the "hide it under the carpet" still does not change the reality that we exist and that this is systemic of a poor social system resulting from Clan philosophy or culture.
Well this is where I consider your point of perspective to be flawed. As you use literal references in the book to determine your argument as per the "classifications" or interpretations as per the arrangement in those texts.
I would argue however that if two people talk to each other in the same geographical location or culture that they are still an element of that society as they are included in the "social narrative" of that culture. This despite what the official stance is or from a perspective of law or what ever "labels" you want to place on them.
Society is the behaviour and is the actual interaction within it between those people, not what the labels tell you how to treat people, for which it is not always evident.
Marack Drock, on 16 January 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:
True. But then again if my theory is flawed so could yours from the same stance. What you are also referring to is Social Activity, Society. Society (from my Websters) means-
-the aggregate of people living together under a more or less ordered community
-an organization or club formed for a particular purpose or activity.
The Darkborn fit the second description perfectly. They are their own society formed by outcasts and their purpose in anything Clan is quite literally Target practice. Since you are not an organized Community under the Clans you are a organization under yourselves. You do not take command from the Clans and act on your own completely. This by its very definition defies the meaning of what it is to be Clan. Clans are a unified body working for the goal of said Clan and nothing else. The Darkborn are the outcasts of a Clan that now serve no real purpose in the Clan society and according to the Source have now formed their own society thus they are not Clan any longer. Their origins might be Clan but they are Darkborn. Society is judged by the organization that controls it. Your organization may think it is Clan, but the Clan Organization denies this and thus you are not because you cannot be a part of someone else's society without them accepting you into it. It defies the purpose of having one.
This is only by definitions of course not the actual social narrative. Ignorance of our existing by definition does not suddenly make us dissapear even if by the standards you like to portray states this. However the reality of the Dark Caste is as of the relation of the Clan culture, we are the product of any lack of reconcilliation, rehabilitation and a steadfast process to the creed you have. And whilst this is correct from a perspective of what the Council would want to convey, it still does not omit the fact that we exist.
Nor that his is something the Dark Born have ever rejected or not accepted with the case of being outcast, if fact we recognise this in our rhetoric, so the idea of making this point largely futile to our group as it is something we already understand and embrace.
The point I made was the fact that intractable and imutable governments with steadfast opinions with a domineering control of their soceities need to be careful of the backlash that this creates. This is why the "Guy Fawkes" association was used to demonstrate this and is the context of the point being made not how these things are defined.
The human condition is unavoidable, though the Clans continue their persuit of cloning and eugenics in their war efforts to make the world or society better as they see it. I will leave it to others to decide if any evidence from RL history perhaps helps to explain the problems this kind of "vision" represents.
I think the clans are more based off of certain ethnic groups rather then politics , jade falcon of course are the Mongolians with the bird named turkina (Ghangus khans wife), and the Mongols bring expert falconers. Not to mention the Mongol doctrine that basically made them more aggressive then the former smoke jaguar. While clan wolf is clearly medieval Russia with names like vlad and Natasha.
I think the clans are more based off of certain ethnic groups rather then politics , jade falcon of course are the Mongolians with the bird named turkina (Ghangus khans wife), and the Mongols bring expert falconers. Not to mention the Mongol doctrine that basically made them more aggressive then the former smoke jaguar. While clan wolf is clearly medieval Russia with names like vlad and Natasha.
The Clans as a whole is based off of the mongols, hence Khan is the title of the leader. The clans themselves were formed specifically to break all previous cultural/ethnic groups up, which was the basis of all the problems in the Inner Sphere. The fact that Clan Wolf has russian names lends more to the fact that Nicolas Kerensky choose Clan Wolf to be his chosen clan for his genetic legacy.
Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 17 January 2015 - 02:59 PM.
I'm not denying that the Dark Born are outcasts though am I?
This fact does not make the Clan basis of government "correct" or that it does not have its own associated problems as a result. Clearly the very existance of the Dark Caste should point to this or from a point of perspective from the Dark Caste repressive or oppressive.
As such all these things very relevant to the discussion concerning Clan politics.
The Dark Caste exists because the Merchant Castes want private armies for endeavors that are beneath or that they want to hide from the Warrior Caste. I am sure that the Dark Caste would not be tolerated by the Warrior Caste and would likely be hunted down when ever possible.
The Dark Caste exists because the Merchant Castes want private armies for endeavors that are beneath or that they want to hide from the Warrior Caste. I am sure that the Dark Caste would not be tolerated by the Warrior Caste and would likely be hunted down when ever possible.
This is not new news to the Dark Born. The point about how it relates to clan politics and culture re-inforced by this view however as it helps to demonstrate the oppression associated to this part of clan society.
This is not new news to the Dark Born. The point about how it relates to clan politics and culture re-inforced by this view however as it helps to demonstrate the oppression associated to this part of clan society.
Clan society is repressive by necessity. As pointed out earlier in this thread, the lower castes actually were not that bad off in most of the Clans (not Smoke Jag of course). I think whoever designed the Clans was a big Heinlein fan.
Alexander Steel, on 12 January 2015 - 07:49 AM, said:
Not even that or we wouldn't have wars.
morale: eversythign that caters my needs is right, everything catering your needs is wrong.
thats how morale works. And hardly anyone is an excuse.
People died in france shortly ago, and all those media flurry about it. But who did cared about all the thousends who die daily in other countries?
Morale is when someone does something wrong making you think it was right.
Morale is biased and used by those with power to control our behavior. Morale doesn't know equality, because its an opinion based result.
Sarna - "The Dark Caste (also known as the Bandit Caste) refers to the lowest caste in Clan society, that of the outcasts and bandits"
Finish the fine print there jimmy.
"This caste is not recognized by Clan society, yet it exists. It supports the failures of Clan society, the unwanted, and the rejects. The dark caste has no voice in Clan affairs because their group is not sanctioned."
Tis funny. Also just a bandit group used as target practice for actual clan warriors is quite brutal.
Marack Drock, on 19 January 2015 - 05:10 PM, said:
Well if they are bandits they kinda have it coming now don't they lol
True, but it seems kinda like it was done on purpose ya know? Send the failures, and rejects to its own group to just be hunted and eliminated. I mean some willingly leaving the clan society but others are just put there.
Yes we are outcasts. Yes it is not recognised by official clan politics (too much of an emberassment). Yes we are oppressed (treated for target practice). None of this has never been denied by the Dark Born.
Point is we are still a part of Clan society. As per the description above of being the lowest Caste of Clan society.
This is the state of denial some Clan players cannot get over, presumably as we are too much of an embarressment to that culture. This since we are recognised as outcasts or failures as per the Clan system. In other cultures however with more social rehabilitation and redemption considerations then this may not be so significant an embarresment for those societies.
I will always consider (as per the above supportive description and the fact that we are present within Clan society) however that the Dark Caste are a part of Clan society and moreso since social interaction is more relevant than social science or the labels applied to these things.
Sorry if this bends some of you out of shape, but you'll just have to get used to it. Dark Born is here to stay, Dark Born is Dark Caste, Dark Caste is a part of Clan soceity.
Yes we are outcasts. Yes it is not recognised by official clan politics (too much of an emberassment). Yes we are oppressed (treated for target practice). None of this has never been denied by the Dark Born.
Point is we are still a part of Clan society. As per the description above of being the lowest Caste of Clan society.
After further reading, you might as well not be. Because practically you guys are the lowest of the low when it comes to clan society. Like surat poop low. Even the poop has more status then the Dark Caste. Not being bent out of shape, that is what the definition of the dark caste is.
Marack Drock, on 19 January 2015 - 05:24 PM, said:
Just not affiliated or recognized by any Clan.... And they are against the Clans as their only source says they attack regularly hence why they are target practice..... which means actually that you started your oppression. Clan society is built off purpose. If you fail to meet a purpose you have none. And that is how it is in real life. If you fail school, fail at society then you will NOT succeed unless you have an ass like Kim Kardashian and Nikki Minaj. Face it. Your "CASTE" only is oppressed because you guys failed and attacked us. The end. Thus you are enemies of the Clan. This also makes you USELESS to Clan society and even if you say you are a part of it an enemy of society is not part of it.
That is stereotyping however and you have to remember we are only declared enemies by your definitions and attack. So in this case retaliation to attack would need to be defended out of a sense of survivalist interests?
However, please state one instance with coroborated evidence where the "Dark Born" has to date taken military action against the Clans in MWO.
However in comparison look at the occurence of Clan units who have moved around to deliberaltey attack other Clans. At this moment in time by that yardstick the Dark Born are less Dezgra than the Clan Wolf Golden Keshik.
LocationSitting on a 12x multiplier and voting for Terra Therma
Posted 19 January 2015 - 05:34 PM
Kyocera, on 08 January 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:
Basically Space Communists right?
Glorious true-born master-race, all things are done in the service of the state, veneration of Fas Fuhrer General Keresky. The Clanners are more fascist than communist,
Motherless fascist space furries. The lot of them.
1
Marack Drock, on 15 January 2015 - 05:52 PM, said:
