653 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Tractor Joe, on 26 March 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

You Lore guys crack me up with all the animosity for boaters. Boating is true to Lore. Stock build? Kintaro 18C comes with 5 lrm5s 1620 lrms and 2 mpl. Is that loadout on a medium not considered a lrm boat?

Don't really care either way with your main point other than to say being able to swap a standard engine into a Maddog might have changed my mind on selling mine.

that "C" on the Kintraro? Means it's a PGI created Champion mech, sport, not a "Lore" mech.

Nice try and epic fail?

[Johny Rocket]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

that "C" on the Kintraro? Means it's a PGI created Champion mech, sport, not a "Lore" mech.

Nice try and epic fail?

Quote

I, am a TT and Lore guy. I like my stock builds, stock history, etc. I loather boating/alpha strike metas, especially when done at the expense of the flavor of the game universe. There are plenty of other generic mech shooters for making generic mech builds with.

Learn some grammar and you would have understood that it was 2 different points not a claim that a champ mech is true to lore.
Fail is yours

Edited by Tractor Joe, 26 March 2015 - 01:12 PM.

[Simbacca]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

aside from laservomit, you don't need less heat on the SMN, you got 14 locked DHS. The issue is you simply don't have the tonnage to do anything beside Laservomit (which it lacks the hardpoints to do well) or Missilevomit. About the only fucntional mixed loadout is the Gauss and 4x ERML, which works, but is 1) boring (IMO) and 2) does nothing to add options for playing it.

Part of the appeal of an Omni is the "customizable" loadout. But if you like ballistics, especially thanks to doubled armor, you simply don't have enough ammo.

nope

Then in addition to the quirks I suggested, the fixed heat sinks and jump jets can be removed by the user. However, the mech cannot change engine or its structure type/armour type.

This gives the user tonnage to work with, without fully breaking the spirit of Omni Mechs.

[Mcgral18]

Tractor Joe, on 26 March 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

Learn some grammar and you would have understood that it was 2 different points not a claim that a champ mech is true to lore.
Fail is yours

No...he's right.

You seem to be calling it stock. Mind elaborating on the (apparently) two points you were making?

[Bishop Steiner]

Tractor Joe, on 26 March 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

Learn some grammar and you would have understood that it was 2 different points not a claim that a champ mech is true to lore.
Fail is yours, in more than just this post.

Grammar fail would also be yours, since, um, it's the same paragraph, oh and um, yeah, you sorta held it up as an example of a "stock" build.

[Bishop Steiner]

Simbacca, on 26 March 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

Then in addition to the quirks I suggested, the fixed heat sinks and jump jets can be removed by the user. However, the mech cannot change engine or its structure type/armour type.

This gives the user tonnage to work with, without fully breaking the spirit of Omni Mechs.

I'm gonna sound real constructionist here (shocker!) but I am totally against the JJs being unlocked. If anything, the IS Mechs should have them and their Endo/not endo locked. Though of course, that is a different post.

No basically, to me a Summoner with no JJs is not a Summoner. (Of course I feel the same about HGNs, VTRs, etc). Those are a defining feature of the mech, and if "fixing" them means strippign them of their identity so they are just run as Generic Meta chassis. recognizable by canon name only, I don't feel thats a fix.

Simple fact is, the ability to lock/unlock endo and ferro is no more lore on an IS mech than a Clan one. With the FF you can make the argument that the clans are a super efficient non waste society, so they would never press and make special armor for a mech, all repairs would be with what it came from. Even on a patchwork IS Mech, modern armor is not a simple matter of measure, cut and paste. It actually has to be engineered with the proper angles of deflection, dead spaces, etc to work.
It0s why in Lore the FF was part of factory "field refit kits" and not just slapped on at the garage.

But regardless, the benefits of FF is so minor overall, no one cares, lol.

But endo? You don't just yank out the skeleton of a 100 ton war machine, and slap in a PepBoys endo steel chassis, whether you are Omni or Battlemech. It's a massive R&D undertaking, with the engineering taking time and literally massive amounts of money, and even if done in mass runs, would end up costing as much or more as the whole mech.

Yet on IS; we swap em for chump change. No reason the Clanners can't either, since neither were actually doing it by lore.

Basically, my outlook, I guess (my position at this time?) is that Locked JJs, Engines and Crit Locations are already a pretty fair tradeoff for the overall versatility of the IS mechs, balance wise.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 March 2015 - 01:21 PM.

[Lord Perversor]

As i see it the 1st Baby steps should be something as simple as replacing Stock FF with Endo and check how much those chassis improves just from that single change (since FF fixed slots should be taken by endo) at least until PGI can find some way to balance FF vs Endo without givin massive advantage to some mechs over others.

[Karl Streiger]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

aside from laservomit, you don't need less heat on the SMN, you got 14 locked DHS. The issue is you simply don't have the tonnage to do anything beside Laservomit (which it lacks the hardpoints to do well) or Missilevomit. About the only fucntional mixed loadout is the Gauss and 4x ERML, which works, but is 1) boring (IMO) and 2) does nothing to add options for playing it.

beginning with the missing arm actuators on the Gargoyle C right arm - i did some "research"
non of the ClanMechs with exception of the Warhawk and DireWolf really need those "internal" engine heatsinks.
Even with ES and FF and reduced internal engine heatsinks its no problem to build all "stock" builds of the TRO 3050.

So there is a good way to help the "underpriviliged" -
advantage it help the
Fenris - only 10 internal heatsinks +2t pod space
Nova only thos 10 internals +4
Summoner with 10 internal heatsinks +4ton
TimberWolf (depends how strong you want to nerf it - i say 12 internal heatsinks) +3 tons
Gargoyle heavy energy load -12 interal heatsinks - still +4tons
Warhawk - well keep all 13 intenal - get +7tons
Executioner - got 16 - say 13 internal - +3tons
DireWolf - reduce towards 12 = +3

depends how strong you want to make them vanilla you can add ES on Nova, MadDog, Summoner, Gargoyle, Executioner
Swap FF for ES for the Warhawk

full face mod: for Nova + ES + FF + omni jj mounts - and a 300XL
Thor II mod for the summoner + ES + FF + omni jj mounts
Tomahawk Mod for the DireWolf + ES

[Bishop Steiner]

Lord Perversor, on 26 March 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

As i see it the 1st Baby steps should be something as simple as replacing Stock FF with Endo and check how much those chassis improves just from that single change (since FF fixed slots should be taken by endo) at least until PGI can find some way to balance FF vs Endo without givin massive advantage to some mechs over others.

you mean on the stock builds, just swap? Unfortunately that breaks the build, something PGI won't do. (mind you, we can break them 9 ways til sunday after, but not allowed out of the box, lol!)

[Johny Rocket]

Mcgral18, on 26 March 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

No...he's right.

You seem to be calling it stock. Mind elaborating on the (apparently) two points you were making?

Its the stock build for that mech. When you buy it and jump in thats what its got,

What part of "Boating is true to Lore" is confusing? This has been hashed out enough to be considered common knowledge, well known pilots boated.
I don't get the animosity for boating when it is a part of this game in every way. Definitely part of real warfare, tanks for example used to have several smaller cannons like rolling battleships, modern tanks almost to a fault have one main gun and maybe a support/defense weapon.
Or there is this, looks real familiar.

[Mcgral18]

Tractor Joe, on 26 March 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

Its the stock build for that mech. When you buy it and jump in thats what its got,

That's not a stock mech, that's a Champion build.

Here, I'll help you:

KTO-18
The kintaro comes with 3 SRM6s stock, and an LRM5.

The Champ comes with the LRMs, which is a PGI build. It also comes with a worthless CASE and no TAG; a very bad Champ build.

KTO-18(C)

[Andi Nagasia]

if i cant unlock my Novas JJ for that 2.5more tons at least give me Endo for those 2.5more tons!

[Wintersdark]

Yeah, as has been said again and again... Jump jets, engines, ES/FF crit slots need to stay locked. There's not even a question.

Engines in particular; clan mechs are nerfed by being forced to use large engines, as after 300-325 rated engines the tonnage to speed ratio drops off very fast. This inefficiency in design (despite the clan efficiency mantra, this is a reality of MWO) keeps some of the most potent clan mechs from being absolute terrors. The Timberwolf Prime, for example, has roughly 28t of pod space, and moves at 89kph. Dropping to a 325XL would save 7.5t of pod space, and only slow to 77kph. 7.5t is a big chunk of space, and 77kph is still a good speed for a heavy - hell, it's still a fairly fast speed for a 75t mech. If it where up to me, I'd throw in a 300XL and save 11t of pod space. 71kph. You could trim some armor, sport 40t of clan weapons.

But ES and FF? Throwing lore aside for the moment, because FOR BALANCE CORE RULE IGNORE, and as already been said we've already thrown that lore aside by allowing IS players to change ES/FF. In battletech, some mechs are simply bad by design - we don't want mechs to simply be bad here, in a PVP MMOG.

The hard truth is that having ES is not really an option. There are a couple small edge cases where it's not necessarily ideal, but generally speaking every mech is improved by Endo Steel. It's not something where there are gives and takes, the reality is that the crit slots spent on ES (even IS side with 14) and useless without the tonnage anyways.

Thus, in actual practice, clan mechs without Endo Steel are just flat out nerfed, missing several tons of pod space for nothing. It's an arbitrary nerf that doesn't serve to balance clan vs. IS at all, it just makes certain mechs garbage from the get go and leaves you with very few actually usable mechs... not coincidentally all the ones with ES (100t assaults aside, which is basically the only time you don't want endosteel, and even then only sometimes).

[Karl Streiger]

Also recognized other stuff i didn't had on my list yet.

I should really don't touch inferior Clan Mechs anymore, they tend to cause bad habits.

Its the engine.
As you know engine rating is - a "TT" value - based on walking speed multipled with weight.
So for example 5 * 80 for Charger and Gargoyle or 4 * 80 for Victor and Zeus.

Resulting in 400 or 320 - both are respectable "heavy" engines - for a reason. A uparmored Mech that moves fast is very hard to kill in MWO. - a 5/8 rating did grant you almost in every turn a +2 - +3 to hit modifer - making it really hard to hit you, mixed with though armor - well you need those shiny pulse lasers and 2/3 noob tubies to compensate.

But in MWO you don't get that huge benefit - every additional or removed rating of 5 - modifys your "top" speed by 81/MechMass kph - and well to hit a Mech crusiing with 55 kph or 85kph is not a big issue - well to make it clear - i don't think its a real issue to hit any Mech if you take you time to aim. (only problem is HSR)

Well TLDR - the engine mass is based on a system that worked well in TT - but you don't get much benefit in MWO.
But instead of reducing the weight - what about "increasing" the output. Would a Gargoyle with a 400XL running 10kph faster would be a game breaker?

[Almond Brown]

If allowing Endo/Engines swaps did anything in game, other than increase those Mechs firepower, then perhaps. But we all know, don't lie to yourselves, all that would happen, is folks would simply slow down while increasing their ALPHA's as much as possible. Allowing BOTH to be changed would be a f'ing joke from the outset. We have enough QQ and Whine already based on the currently allowed ALPHA levels.

P.S. Having 5 players pledging to "not doing more ALPHA" is certainly not a reason to allow the other 19K players to be able to do so.

Edited by Almond Brown, 27 March 2015 - 07:05 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Almond Brown, on 27 March 2015 - 07:03 AM, said:

If allowing Endo/Engines swaps did anything in game, other than increase those Mechs firepower, then perhaps. But we all know, don't lie to yourselves, all that would happen, is folks would simply slow down while increasing their ALPHA's as much as possible. Allowing BOTH to be changed would be a f'ing joke from the outset. We have enough QQ and Whine already based on the currently allowed ALPHA levels.

P.S. Having 5 players pledging to "not doing more ALPHA" is certainly not a reason to allow the other 19K players to be able to do so.

Even with Endo, these mechs would be inferior to the TimberWolf firepower wise.

Not much of an argument.

[Lily from animove]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 01:20 PM, said:

Basically, my outlook, I guess (my position at this time?) is that Locked JJs, Engines and Crit Locations are already a pretty fair tradeoff for the overall versatility of the IS mechs, balance wise.

No its actually, and unfortunately not. Simply becase some mechs have this equipment locked and don't need it and waste tonnage, and others don't have it locked, or have it locked and actually benefit.

thats why the holy trinity exists, its composed of clanmechs where all the stuff that clans have naturally gathered most of the clanners advantages without having the disadvantages. While in the other side, there are a lot clanmechs having gathered all the downsides and nearly no advantages.

and across the baord nerfs/buffs will not help this problem as long as construction rules stay.

Almond Brown, on 27 March 2015 - 07:03 AM, said:

If allowing Endo/Engines swaps did anything in game, other than increase those Mechs firepower, then perhaps. But we all know, don't lie to yourselves, all that would happen, is folks would simply slow down while increasing their ALPHA's as much as possible. Allowing BOTH to be changed would be a f'ing joke from the outset. We have enough QQ and Whine already based on the currently allowed ALPHA levels.

P.S. Having 5 players pledging to "not doing more ALPHA" is certainly not a reason to allow the other 19K players to be able to do so.

actually gameplaywise I doubt alphas would increase much. TBR and SCR are very slot filled mechs already, you can't increase alpha much, because full mech is already full. and if a mech sacrifices speed or cooling it will be easier to counter or lower its dps at all.

so the holy trinity, will not be affected by these changes. But the small difference of beign able to use ES/FF will not help much on some mechs, because their issues is unneeded fixed equipment, bad geometry or the lack of hardpoints in the right locations.
MLX is a Opfor whem it comes to hardpoints and their distribution. and together with the fixed tonnage you have a bad light mech left, because "frame" in this mehc to work with is a bad one and you cna not really squeeze out somethign good. and if so, the possibilities are so restricted that we do not need 3 variantes or more. could ahve been 2 being enough.

[Andi Nagasia]

personally i feel JJ and other Non-DSH Equipment should be unlocked for Omni-Mechs,
Just look to my Topic(HERE) but i feel DHS and JJ on S(Special) Variants should stay locked,
so only the ADR/Flamer, MLX/CAP-JJ, NVA/JJ, and SMN/JJ would be unlocked,

[Khobai]

Quote

clan mechs are nerfed by being forced to use large engines,

Not really. Last I checked clan mechs are superior to IS mechs even with locked engines. Clan mechs arnt really being nerfed by being forced to use large engines. Theyre just being forced to laser spam because of large engines. Allowing clan mechs to use weapons other than lasers would hardly be overpowered.

Locked engines force clan mechs to use one type of weapon almost exclusively... that is why the entire clan meta revolves around lasers. That is bad for the game. Everyone complains about the omnipresent stormcrows and madcats spamming lasers everywhere. So why not fix that? Plus clan lights suddenly become viable alternatives with their speed no longer capped at ridiculously low levels.

Its a simple three step process:

1) unlock clan engines thus allowing clan mechs greater diversity of weapons. also makes clan lights viable.
2) rebalance clan weapons accordingly and nerf any weapons that become overpowered as a result of unlocking Clan XL engines.
3) give IS the light fusion engine already to help balance the disparity between IS and Clan XL engines.

Edited by Khobai, 27 March 2015 - 02:49 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Almond Brown, on 27 March 2015 - 07:03 AM, said:

If allowing Endo/Engines swaps did anything in game, other than increase those Mechs firepower, then perhaps. But we all know, don't lie to yourselves, all that would happen, is folks would simply slow down while increasing their ALPHA's as much as possible. Allowing BOTH to be changed would be a f'ing joke from the outset. We have enough QQ and Whine already based on the currently allowed ALPHA levels.

P.S. Having 5 players pledging to "not doing more ALPHA" is certainly not a reason to allow the other 19K players to be able to do so.

Firstly, this is about endo, not Engines. And the mechs that would increase their firepower with Endo? Pretty much all need to, except the Hellbringer, which smart players would use the tonnage on cooling, which is its achilles heel.

But summoners, Novas and Gargoyle all NEED to increase their sustainable firepower. Mad Dog not as badly, but lets be honest, it's a 60 tonner. It's not going to make and break metas with 3 tons more available.