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Thought Experiment: Alt To Ghost Heat

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#1 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 01:22 PM

Disclaimer: I generally dislike nebulous general rules that might be difficult for individuals to pick up on as it hurts the new player base, however this idea, which I simply wish to break down and discuss and is no doubt not without flaws, could be presented as either a global rule or a quirk.

Boating multiple pin point weapon systems has been standard practice for a while now in this and any prior MW title. The benefits of doing so are, of course, more damage on a specific part you want, reduced need to expose yourself for extended periods, and the ability to fire and shield to extend your own mech's lifespan, which does throw in a little extra skill factor between a well piloted mech vs a less skilled individual.

The downside to boating multiple high damage pin point front loaded weapons, especially if they are long range weapons, is that it punishes brawler builds, who not only need to cross distance, but then need to contend with fairly rapid rate of fire from those ranged builds. Totally eliminating high pinpoint long range damage, however, would make it far too easy to brawl and punish those players who do enjoy the long range game.

The idea I propose is, let us call it, Ghost Recharge. Again, it could be applied globally (alongside or replacing ghostheat) or be applied specifically to certain chassis as a quirk.

Simply, the more of a given weapon or weapons MOUNTED (not fired, mounted) on a mech, the longer the cool down of that or those weapons on the mech. An example would be, say:

"Any additional Gauss or (ER)PPC mounted to the mech increases Gauss and (ER)PPC cool down by 1 second."

As applied to practice application, one gauss would fire at its current rate if fire, two would fire one second slower, three ERPPC would fire two seconds slower, and two gauss + two PPC would fire three seconds slower. The trade being made here is that while you are allowed to have the current front loaded pinpoint firepower, the rate of fire, and overall DPS, suffers. High pinpoint, low fire rate. Low pinpoint, high fire rate. And if you are the kind of person who wants a simple fluffy explanation of reason, "the power drain required to feed multiples of a given weapon result in a slower recharge to them."

If the cooldown delay value varries by weapon, you could even use it to tone down ballistic boating builds or increase the gap between lrm5 rain clouds. Or, well, any system taken in bulk. It would promote builds with less of a given weapon system while (slightly) toning them down the more you equip.

Again, this thread's purpose is to discuss the pros and cons of the idea. I am sure there are many aspects of it, both good and bad, that I would personally never see, and would be curious about community thoughts about it.

Edit for Clarity:

I was picturing it like a cooldown based penalty as opposed to a heat penalty, with each weapon getting specifically linked and given appropriate values, with cooldown increasing happening only for each weapon beyond the allowable baseline, and with that penalty automatically incurring based on your mech loadout - not based on what you fire, which would allow it to circumvent macro bypasses entirely.

Also, to reiterate, it could be used as a NEGATIVE QUIRK, as opposed to a global cap, meaning it could be applied to specific trouble chassis while leaving underperformers alone.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 12 January 2015 - 04:41 PM.


#2 Mcgral18

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 01:33 PM

That makes my NopeVa very sad...it limits my Wub enormously.

#3 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 01:39 PM

It could. Otoh, if used as an alternative to ghost heat, you could still get off one hell of an alpha between coffee breaks. XD. Assuming the ghost cool down is applied to the mech at all.

#4 Deathlike

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 01:41 PM

TBH convergence is more of a factor than it is cooldown, heat, or whatever arbitrary penalty you add.

If boating and then firing more weapons actually reduced convergence, this would be a non-issue.

Edited by Deathlike, 12 January 2015 - 01:48 PM.


#5 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 01:46 PM

Not incorrect, Death. But what is more likely to change, convergence or a background rule set for weapons? Cannot get any sort of agreement among the community regarding convergence and cone of fire, anyways. Instead of trying the fix the problem directly and beating an already well tenderized dead horse, maybe we can try another approach.

#6 Deathlike

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 01:49 PM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 12 January 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

Not incorrect, Death. But what is more likely to change, convergence or a background rule set for weapons? Cannot get any sort of agreement among the community regarding convergence and cone of fire, anyways. Instead of trying the fix the problem directly and beating an already well tenderized dead horse, maybe we can try another approach.


I subscribe to Homeless Bill's basic premise that he had a long while ago.

I don't want to dig it up (too lazy to find it), but it's highly relevant to the situation at large.

#7 FupDup

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 01:52 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 12 January 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

TBH convergence is more of a factor than it is cooldown, heat, or whatever arbitrary penalty you add.

If boating and then firing more weapons actually reduced convergence, this would be a non-issue.

I wouldn't base it on the total number of guns, because most of the worst offenders in the past (like 4 PPC Stalker and 2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss Whale) don't have that many guns. This seems to hurt mechs like the Nova and Swayback the most...

I like Homeless Bill's version where it was based on the amount of damage, so it couldn't be fudged by just taking a small number of big guns (or vice versa).

#8 Deathlike

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 01:56 PM

View PostFupDup, on 12 January 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

I wouldn't base it on the total number of guns, because most of the worst offenders in the past (like 4 PPC Stalker and 2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss Whale) don't have that many guns. This seems to hurt mechs like the Nova and Swayback the most...

I like Homeless Bill's version where it was based on the amount of damage, so it couldn't be fudged by just taking a small number of big guns (or vice versa).


Well, that's exactly what I was aiming for really.

Of course, this is Lostech, and burying a good idea is common theme here.

#9 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 02:18 PM

Yes, but the idea is scalable. X guns over Y limit of Z type resulting in a variable cool down penalty. Do not take my EXAMPLE as the only permutation. I could have easily said "mounting more than 6 medium lasers results in a cool down increase of 0.2 seconds for each additional medium laser past six."

#10 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 02:23 PM

Or, alternatively, that OR option kicks in. Only give the stacking cool down increase as a quirk to specific mechs. Remember, I said it could be treated as a global OR a quirk. Why stick it on a Jenner, for example?

#11 Pjwned

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 02:38 PM

While I agree that fixing instant convergence would be a better solution, I think OP's idea is a bit interesting; I do have a few points though:

-Increased cooldown by 1 second is quite a big penalty for a number of weapon systems, it would need to be variable for certain weapons.
-Perhaps the higher cooldown would only be triggered when firing an alpha strike, although if so then the question is how many weapons would be too many.
-Mechs like the Nova (as Mcgral pointed out) would need to be treated carefully.
-Would this come into effect as soon as you have more than 1 of the same weapon system? Wouldn't treat mechs like the JR7-F very well even if they already avoid ghost heat.

I guess the way I imagine it would make it fairly similar to ghost heat as it is now, except slower refire rate instead of higher heat, so...

Hm...

Edited by Pjwned, 12 January 2015 - 02:39 PM.


#12 Brody319

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 03:49 PM

I stand by my idea of making ghost heat incrimental based soley on the heat generated at an instant in time.

instead of 3 ppcs triggering ghost heat
if you fired ANY combination of weapons that generates say 20 heat, you would experience some ghost heat.

This decreases alpha builds and would greatly increase the time to kill. which makes the fun a bit more fun.

#13 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 04:27 PM

View PostPjwned, on 12 January 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

While I agree that fixing instant convergence would be a better solution, I think OP's idea is a bit interesting; I do have a few points though:

-Increased cooldown by 1 second is quite a big penalty for a number of weapon systems, it would need to be variable for certain weapons.
-Perhaps the higher cooldown would only be triggered when firing an alpha strike, although if so then the question is how many weapons would be too many.
-Mechs like the Nova (as Mcgral pointed out) would need to be treated carefully.
-Would this come into effect as soon as you have more than 1 of the same weapon system? Wouldn't treat mechs like the JR7-F very well even if they already avoid ghost heat.

I guess the way I imagine it would make it fairly similar to ghost heat as it is now, except slower refire rate instead of higher heat, so...

Hm...



I was picturing it like a cooldown based penalty as opposed to a heat penalty, with each weapon getting specifically linked and given appropriate values, with cooldown increasing happening only for each weapon beyond the allowable baseline, and with that penalty automatically incurring based on your mech loadout - not based on what you fire, which would allow it to circumvent macro bypasses entirely. Think of it as your mech trying to send the power to all the weapon systems or weapon stabilization systems in the case of ballistics, and beyond a point it starts to struggle a little.

For example, if the ghost recharge limit is, say, 6 for Medium Lasers, the Jenner would not be impacted at all. However, if you had a Firestarter and gave it 8 Medium Lasers, the cooldown would only be slowed down by whatever value was assigned to the medium laser penalty x2, because you are only over the limit by two lasers. If it was as small as 0.1 or 0.2 seconds per additional Medium past 6, you are still looking at less than half a second increased cooldown across your medium lasers. Incidentally, in this example, it means the Jenner can fire slightly more often, but has less weapons, than the Firestarter, which is the intent here.

Why anyone would use medium lasers instead of SPLas on an FS9 is beyond me, however, but that is not relevant to the example.

However, even before Ghost Heat was introduced, it was only a certain few mech loadouts that actually required Ghost Heat to be included. Dumping Ghost Heat entirely and applying Ghost Recharge only to the mechs that can actually load certain things like a negative quirk that accesses a standardized list of Ghost Recharge penalties might be the cleanest way. Things like the Nova, for example, would not suffer that negative quirk, whereas things like the TDR, KCG, and DWF could be given the GR quirk and would suffer a hit to their recharge rates if they boated gauss, erppc, or used a combination thereof.

I readily admit, though, that it would be confusing for new players. Just as confusing as Ghost Heat, but with far less of a punishment. You would not implode yourself by accidentally clicking something, you would just shoot less often if you loaded your mech out in a way that crossed the hypothetical line.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 12 January 2015 - 04:43 PM.


#14 Serpieri

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 04:43 PM

Hardpoint Limitations.

#15 FlareHeart Devalis

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 05:07 PM

I like the idea, and it would be much nicer than Ghost Heat as it is current. However, this would allow high alpha's again and potentially allow one-shots back. Having my light mech completely CT'ed and dead in one shot by some theory-crafter who's pushed the alpha to the limit is no fun at all. Alpha Wolves frustrate me for that reason as well.

#16 Brody319

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 05:36 PM

View PostFlareHeart, on 12 January 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

I like the idea, and it would be much nicer than Ghost Heat as it is current. However, this would allow high alpha's again and potentially allow one-shots back. Having my light mech completely CT'ed and dead in one shot by some theory-crafter who's pushed the alpha to the limit is no fun at all. Alpha Wolves frustrate me for that reason as well.


uh...I'm sorry but for most light mechs, a single AC20 round to the back will kill you. You will always be able to die from a single shot if you are in a light.

I'm sorry to tell you this but...light mechs are...lightly armored...now please don't cry...but yea, you die fast in a LIGHT mech.

#17 Khobai

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 06:00 PM

This idea makes as little sense as ghost heat.

Having more weapons of a particular type is not going to make them hotter or slower. That is simply not how things work.

What would work though is having the cooldown of weapons be proportional to how much pinpoint damage the weapon does. Weapons with more pinpoint damage should fire slower than weapons with less pinpoint damage. A PPC should not have the same cooldown as a laser because the PPC does 10 pinpoint damage while the laser does damage over a duration.

#18 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 06:55 PM

I'd rather improve heat dissipation rates, tweak weapon's heat, damage and cooldown values a tad and look to set a static heat cap.

Since we have a highly increased rate of fire and doubled armor, I'd like to take a look at doubling dissipation and have dubs be the same inside and out of the engine. So we would see 0.2 for SHS and 0.4 for DHS.

Then we can look to tweak any weapons that are evaluated to be out performing others. For example with ER Large Lasers, they generate 8 heat for IS and 10 for Clans, where they each originally generated 12 heat, so we then might consider bringing them back up to 12 heat, which can add a bit more of a trade-off compared to other weapons and with dissipation being.

So then maybe a good heat cap can be set between a value of 38 or go up to 44. Whatever value is tested to be best for gameplay is what should be used though.




Then after making those changes, I'd like to explore trying out a default chainfire mode of firing weapons no matter the grouping. I was thinking that we would still be able to semi-auto rapidfire from the chain-fire mode (repeatedly clicking the fire button in chain fire mode).

And as an alternative to this the Alpha-Strike key would allow all weapons to be fired at once, but it should have a sort of spread in focal points similar to how firing when applying Jump Jet thrust scatters weapon fire.

#19 El Bandito

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 07:07 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 12 January 2015 - 01:33 PM, said:

That makes my NopeVa very sad...it limits my Wub enormously.


Just as with GH, I am sure certain weapons can be exempted from this rule. I am more in favor of removing PPFLD altogether, with the possible exception of Gauss. PGI has been proven to be incompetent in regards to making a correctly working convergence mechanic.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 January 2015 - 07:08 PM.


#20 FlareHeart Devalis

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 08:30 AM

View PostBrody319, on 12 January 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:


uh...I'm sorry but for most light mechs, a single AC20 round to the back will kill you. You will always be able to die from a single shot if you are in a light.

I'm sorry to tell you this but...light mechs are...lightly armored...now please don't cry...but yea, you die fast in a LIGHT mech.


I was referring TO MY FRONT. I'm sorry if I don't want hexa-PPC stalkers making a come-back. Yes, I am aware that in a light mech, my ass is easier to shoot through than my front. But I'd rather like to keep the ability to at least take a single hit to my front and survive, thank you.





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