122 replies to this topic

[Garheardt The Black]

Is climbing the top of the mountain in Crimson Strait considered an exploit? I was scouting up there earlier today in a solo match only to face a great deal of nasty hate from a couple of people on the enemy team. They were certain it was an exploit because it was "an unfair advantage." Considering how many heavies I've run into up there and the ease of access from either team spawn location, I don't see it. I can't find any information on the forums about it. Thoughts?

Thanks!
-Gar

[Jolly Llama]

No, it is not. That is a valide position on the map, both mountains are. You can get up there with an Atlas, given enough time. Those people were very wrong about climbing that mountain being an exploit. It is a tactical advantage gained by using proper game mechanics, not cheating.

[STEF_]

Choosing a good point in the map is never an exploit, but it's called strategic positioning; do it in every match and in every map

[Joseph Mallan]

Garheardt The Black, on 11 January 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

Is climbing the top of the mountain in Crimson Strait considered an exploit? I was scouting up there earlier today in a solo match only to face a great deal of nasty hate from a couple of people on the enemy team. They were certain it was an exploit because it was "an unfair advantage." Considering how many heavies I've run into up there and the ease of access from either team spawn location, I don't see it. I can't find any information on the forums about it. Thoughts?

Thanks!
-Gar

ex·ploit
verb
ikˈsploit/
Definition:
1) make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).

Video Game Definition:
2) Any tactic that works more than once against "me".

[Sarlic]

I have seen you in the match when my housemate was playing
(Vaegir Raiden, he was not swearing at ya but did'nt liked it.)

I consider this as a unfair advantage since people have:

*Unfair (unlimited) visibility and range* to detect people. Mostly pilots who are piloting a scout. (Oversight is about 2/3 of the map)
-> Pilots on the ground cannot make the angle with their cockpits to hit the pilots on the hill unless walking across the map to make that angle with the arms or cockpit.
*When a mech is equipped with LRMs they just spam a certain area of the map.
*ER PPC spam across the map.
I assume it's not even ment for pilots to get up there and i consider it as a abusive mechanic to influence any outcome of the match. There is almost no counter measures only to get up there without jumpjets or have a friendly pilot to to LRM boat it.

Bottom line: there is still nothing done yet to prevent pilots taking the top hill. It's an object, it's a placed structure, like a building to prevent. Not to engage.

It's a (unfair) advantage and it can influence a entire match due it's oversight. So in my eyes it's a advantage you should not have. Either as a light, medium, heavy or even a assault.

I always report people who are on that hill. I don't think PGI made any statements yet but i will keep reporting untill this flaw has been fixed because it's really a flaw in the design.

Edited by Sarlic, 11 January 2015 - 05:28 AM.

[Sarlic]

Stefka Kerensky, on 11 January 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

Choosing a good point in the map is never an exploit, but it's called strategic positioning; do it in every match and in every map

I disagree. It's a position not to be ment up there. And i do not respect any pilot going up there. The oversight is huge. Simply for the reasons i just gave.

But i do respect other people's opinions.

Edited by Sarlic, 11 January 2015 - 05:25 AM.

[Nazar24]

You are playing with the rulebook that pgi has given to us.
Everybody can get there just by walking.
There are no invisible wall, obstruction or anything to prevent that point to be reached, and you are not using any strange glitch or cheat.
If somebody doesn't like you be in that specific position because it gives you an "unfair advantage", should act accordingly to negate that advantage within the game, and not via reporting.

Edited by Nazar24, 11 January 2015 - 05:40 AM.

[-Wulf-]

Whay are you QQ, this? Pgi knows the position well, they use it themselves. So does every major comp team in game. Reporting it will only get your future (Possibly Legitimate reports) ignored by the support staff. They have enough on their plate with legitimate problems. Whiners about known map positions like this one are ignored. No one really cares if you personally find this position to be an exploit since it was designed intentionally into the map to be used in the exact way you are griping about. Do yourself a favor and stop reporting people for using the map point as it was originally intended. Its asinine and will get you nowhere with support.

[Sarlic]

Nazar24, on 11 January 2015 - 05:38 AM, said:

You are playing with the rulebook that pgi has given to us.
Everybody can get there just by walking.
There are no invisible wall, obstruction or anything to prevent that point to be reached, and you are not using any strange glitch or cheat.
If somebody doesn't like you be in that specific position because it gives you an "unfair advantage", should act accordingly to negate that advantage within the game, and not via reporting.

That still not justify to have these thoughts. Just because PGI haven't finished or adjusted the map to prevent this kind of behaviour is not a free letter to just to have a go at it. That's no argument.

When its not intended in the game mechanics, then it's simply a exploit ( = fairly wide term )

To your saying you would use for example a invisible wall. A Direwolf can stand and shoot behind from it. But the enemy pilot on the other side cannot hit the Direwolf because of that invisible wall.

That's just lame for everybody and not just for me.

I do not call this clever usesage of game mechaniscs or strategic positioning. It's a unintional map design flaw. The Direwolf has a advantage which can influence the whole outcome of that match, and if pilots with your thoughts would use this kind of advantage i consider them as bad sportsmans. Simply because they have that thought all along to use that invisible wall in the first place.

Edited by Sarlic, 11 January 2015 - 06:01 AM.

[Carcass23]

Calling this an exploit is a joke, right?

[Sarlic]

Carcass23, on 11 January 2015 - 05:56 AM, said:

Calling this an exploit is a joke, right?

Well the term exploit is fairly wide..

[Garheardt The Black]

Thanks for the replies so far. Sarlic, having seen the game, I appreciate your weighing in here. I wanted to address a few of your points. I primarily run lights so I've had extensive time on, around, and shooting at things on the peak in question. I've dueled up there and occasionally sniped someone from on it or sniped someone off of it. Here are the pros and cons as I see it and why I think the map is balanced:

Pro:
If a scout invests in a BAP and the extended sensor range module, it is possible to acquire information and to spot for friendly LRMs.
Con:
You have to invest valuable module and tonnage for an advantage that can be easily mitigated by an incidental ECM.

Pro:
visibility up there is very good. In team ques where voice chat is common, it can allow a scout to call enemy movements.
Con:
Gauss and PPCs can end you. most lights have to be relatively static up there in order to try and remain unnoticed and to prevent involuntary falls. A crack shot can end them. It only takes a single team mate overwatching the peak to either force the light into cover or destroy it outright. At any rate, you'll severely hamper any advantages.

Pro:
A cheeky light can snipe with long range energy weapons.
Con:
Guass and PPCs can end you. Another light with short range weapons can also chase you right back down.

My conclusion:
In solo ques, the lack of coordination within a team can allow an enemy light to utilize the peak without fear. If people account for this possibility and take it upon themselves to cover their team mates with some overwatch, ECM, or a fast light, the tactical advantage will usually be lost. In team ques, I've found that it is usually worth sending a light that way to deny the enemy the advantage. If they don't contest it, I consider it fair game to use it. I am sorry that you do not respect me for what I believe to be utilizing the map to it's fullest. Having been on the scouting and receiving end, I believe that this is a pretty common tactic and it is easily countered. Why do you believe that this type of game play was not intended?

Edited by Garheardt The Black, 11 January 2015 - 06:06 AM.

[Galenit]

Sarlic, on 11 January 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

I disagree. It's a position not to be ment up there. And i do not respect any pilot going up there. The oversight is huge. Simply for the reasons i just gave.

But i do respect other people's opinions.

A place that is not to be ment up there are the hills between the gates of the cw maps, you know the ones that are out of bounds are in the middle of the map.
On crimson there is no out of bounds on the middle hill.

Sure it has an advantage, it favors jumpjets and its a great tactical place,
a place where jj mechs should fight about and noone should ignore.

I like to use the hill with my c1,
most time i can empty the ammo bins and have fun and only taking one or two times counterfires,
sometimes i have to work for it because the enemys firing with ll, gauss, pccs and lrms after me,
a few times a light comes after me, sometimes i can defeat him, most times, i have to retreat.

The enemy ignoring me on this superior tactical advantage giving position is not my fault,
not using it would be a shame.

Edited by Galenit, 11 January 2015 - 06:11 AM.

[GumbyC2C]

Why would a mech with JJ's not be allowed to get to a high point within the boundary on a map Sarlic? That's part of the advantage of JJs

[ztac]

Probably just call it bad map making by PGI.. they have a lot of experience in this area..... Making maps to keep everyone happy is just stupid too! This also limits what type of map can make in the process as well... A proper city map for instance would negate LRM and snipers to a degree as well as JJ as you would not be able to jump on top of the buildings..... so they will never make such a thing!

Edited by ztac, 11 January 2015 - 06:29 AM.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

Legit spot. And when I am in a long range mech with elevation (gauss jager) A nice spot to watch for kills.

[Sarlic]

Garheardt The Black, on 11 January 2015 - 06:05 AM, said:

Thanks for the replies so far. Sarlic, having seen the game, I appreciate your weighing in here. I wanted to address a few of your points. I primarily run lights so I've had extensive time on, around, and shooting at things on the peak in question. I've dueled up there and occasionally sniped someone from on it or sniped someone off of it. Here are the pros and cons as I see it and why I think the map is balanced:

Pro:
If a scout invests in a BAP and the extended sensor range module, it is possible to acquire information and to spot for friendly LRMs.
Con:
You have to invest valuable module and tonnage for an advantage that can be easily mitigated by an incidental ECM.

Pro:
visibility up there is very good. In team ques where voice chat is common, it can allow a scout to call enemy movements.
Con:
Gauss and PPCs can end you. most lights have to be relatively static up there in order to try and remain unnoticed and to prevent involuntary falls. A crack shot can end them. It only takes a single team mate overwatching the peak to either force the light into cover or destroy it outright. At any rate, you'll severely hamper any advantages.

Pro:
A cheeky light can snipe with long range energy weapons.
Con:
Guass and PPCs can end you. Another light with short range weapons can also chase you right back down.

My conclusion:
In solo ques, the lack of coordination within a team can allow an enemy light to utilize the peak without fear. If people account for this possibility and take it upon themselves to cover their team mates with some overwatch, ECM, or a fast light, the tactical advantage will usually be lost. In team ques, I've found that it is usually worth sending a light that way to deny the enemy the advantage. If they don't contest it, I consider it fair game to use it. I am sorry that you do not respect me for what I believe to be utilizing the map to it's fullest. Having been on the scouting and receiving end, I believe that this is a pretty common tactic and it is easily countered. Why do you believe that this type of game play was not intended?

GumbyC2C, on 11 January 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

Why would a mech with JJ's not be allowed to get to a high point within the boundary on a map Sarlic? That's part of the advantage of JJs

Fair enough and thanks for your opinion.

Well, i wouldn't have much problems with it if the hill was properly scaled.( meaning a smaller less height, but fairly enough to countermeasure it on a different scale. )

Or PGI need to make that hill not climbable by putting more 'no climable' meshes on that hill with a certain height to still get a proper view for lights. ( Note: the saddle on both sides are fairly accesable on different heights )

The only countermeasures i can think of is usage of one certain ballistic. The Gauss rifle. But yet again. out of range lasers do minimal damage, You cannot make the full angle of your cockpit (and arms to a certain degree) to even hit the on the top of that hill without to have one friendly to light it up for LRM fire or a light scout to chase it down.

Not to mention to make that angle to hit with your lasers is to walk further away from it. Even when you can hit it you will cause minimal damage because it's mostly out of range.

JJ's are good to go. Use the buildings, edges etc fine by me, but that has to do more with proper scaling then just one big fat giant hill.

I also gave my reasoning in postnumber #5 and #8.

Edited by Sarlic, 11 January 2015 - 06:44 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sarlic, on 11 January 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

I disagree. It's a position not to be ment up there. And i do not respect any pilot going up there. The oversight is huge. Simply for the reasons i just gave.

But i do respect other people's opinions.

Exploit

Quote

make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).

Which is different that

Cheat:

Quote

to break a rule or law usually to gain an advantage at something

Exploiting is not always a bad thing. And in combat using a legal advantage to improve the chances of winning is a common practice.

We want a good tactical game, unless someone's tactics help them beat us... Really?

[HARDKOR]

Climbing hills is op now.

This is like people who complain about being legged.

[Aiden Skye]

This is not an exploit. Anyone can walk up the hill there are a few ramps built in from all sides. Why would it be considered bad map design? most of the hills on Crimson have some kind of ramp so you can get up.

I guess some people just wanna play mechparkinglot online?