221 replies to this topic

[Aiden Skye]

I'm trying to get into the psyche of those that see clans still as OP. There seems to be no end to the nerf clan threads and the call to hammer them back to the outskirts of the innersphere. I play both IS and clan mechs. I don't usually like to play meta builds. I even play mechs like the NOva a lot, so I'm not just thinking about this from the viewpoint of the Trio.

When I see the daily call to nerf clans, I can't help thinking.

- Lights are just...ugh!
- Mediums aren't that special aside from the doomcrow.
- Heavies have great choices, I like choices. I don't pilot assaults so I can't say anything about them.
- Ballistics are considered inferior / not worth the tonnage and aren't seen that often outside of gauss rifles and UAC5 direwolves.
- Missiles - the general consensus is that missiles are useless against anyone capable + stream fire gets chewed up by AMS.
- Energy has longer beam duration which since I've started playing a year and a half ago, energy was considered inferior as it's not PPFLD ( longer duration = more damage, it's not like they do more damage in the same amount of time). CERPPC's are too hot and situational

So whats that leave weapon wise? Medium lasers, M and LPL CERLL, CSRM's are what I see mostly on the battlefield. Are these considered OP?

- Yeah, but clans have the range advantage!!!!
Popular place I see people say this about clan mechs is on Borreal. 1 map.
I don't know what game you're playing Joe, but most non CW matches come down to a brawl or a death-ball thanks to all the arena styled maps. And if that's the case I'd much rather take an IS brawler as its going to run cooler and have better FLD to minimize face-time.

All in all things seem pretty balanced to me though a lot of the clan mechs need some love.
- Clan, for what it's worth has better range but run hotter. Builds are mostly energy focused.
- IS has quirks that has breathed new life into a lot of the long forgotten chassis, better FLD via a wicked collection of ballistics + run cooler.

So why still the calls to nerf everything Clan? Is it really just because of Stormy, Timmy and Dire....ry?

Edited by W A R K H A N, 11 January 2015 - 01:16 PM.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

The only mechs that could really potentially be called OP on the clan side are the Stormcrow, Timberwolf, and Hellbringer.

The King Crab is more than a match for a direwolf so I don't think we should include him in the list anymore.

The Timberwolf is pretty heavily limited in CW due to his tonnage. If you take 2 you are really limited in your other mech selections. Hellbringer is more a specialist although still a nice mech. The stormcrow is really the only clan mech that can be abused in CW due to his power/ton.

In regards to why clans are called OP I have no idea.

Edited by Blueduck, 11 January 2015 - 01:19 PM.

[Adiuvo]

Higher burst coupled with the longer range enables good players to cripple enemy mechs incredibly quickly. There's also the whole tankiness thing, higher agility, etc..

Honestly, most of the reason games devolve into brawls is due to player skill. People, generally, are not good at trading. They do not like getting shot, nor is aim good enough to even get consistent damage at long ranges. In this way, for top effectiveness clans do have a high skill floor and cap, but once you do reach that level it's evident the 'big 3' have issues.

Edited by Adiuvo, 11 January 2015 - 01:29 PM.

[El Bandito]

If you read the forums lately, then the general consensus is that the Clans are not OP as a whole, but select few mechs, such as the Timbergod and the Doomcrow are OP. Hellbringer is becoming very popular after release, especially in CW--that ECM on a Heavy mech really covered a lot of Clan deficiencies.

This is real talk, but I have yet to lose to a face to face 1v1 duel in pug matches with my laser vomit Timbie-C against IS mechs. Timbie's mobility, damage, and hitbox durability (especially with a single S side torso) is incredibly high all around. Only Light IS mechs have the chance of outmaneuvering that 75 ton Clan Heavy mech, and only King Crab might take me down with a lucky shot. Since I am far from a good pilot, it must be the mech itself that is too strong.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 January 2015 - 01:41 PM.

[Koniks]

The gap between the top mechs in each faction and the rest of the mechs in each faction is still too large.

And the best mechs in the Clan are still somewhat better than the best mechs in the Inner Sphere, largely because the Clan mechs are both better generalists and have enough loadout variety to also be purpose built while the IS mechs usually have to be purpose built.

Edited by Mizeur, 11 January 2015 - 01:31 PM.

[Pjwned]

It would help if having a chunk of a clan XL engine blown off actually meant something instead of barely anything.

[Flaming oblivion]

Got to tell you I don't understand this either.

As far as I understand it

The orion is considered a pretty weak IS mech

And timberwolf the flat out best Clan mech

Now I like the support role and I can tell you

As a lurm boat the orion is flat out superior less forgiving but if you know how to play it superior none the less.

Maybe with the meta clans are op , But nerf the meta not the mech or you will obliterate other build options.

[Thorqemada]

Another Clans be not OP thread....so hear the word of the twelfth Jager (around minute 12):
http://www.nogutsnog...hp?topic=2673.0

PS: For the Deaf -> Clans still OP

Edited by Thorqemada, 11 January 2015 - 02:01 PM.

[TripleEhBeef]

El Bandito, on 11 January 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

If you read the forums lately, then the general consensus is that the Clans are not OP as a whole, but select few mechs, such as the Timbergod and the Doomcrow are OP. Hellbringer is becoming very popular after release, especially in CW--that ECM on a Heavy mech really covered a lot of Clan deficiencies.

This is real talk, but I have yet to lose to a face to face 1v1 duel in pug matches with my laser vomit Timbie-C. Timbie's mobility, damage, and hitbox durability (especially with a single S side torso) is incredibly high all around. Only Light IS mechs have the chance of outmaneuvering that 75 ton Clan Heavy mech. Since I am far from a good pilot, it must be the mech itself that is too strong.

The Timber is really, really good, but I hesitate to call it OP. Yes, it is a heavy mech with medium mech size and speed with a firepower potential that rivals assaults. And yes, no IS heavy can match its mobility and firepower. But it's not the hands down super-mech in every situation. Timbers do extremely well when they has the ability to control the range of an engagement due to the nature of Clan weapons. But get it into a cramped, knife fighting area with lots of cover, and the IS big gun mechs can bring it down.

Same with the Doomcrow. Get in its face with an IS brawler and you can knock it out by nailing components with PPFLD guns, SRMs, and short duration lasers while tanking damage on your shield arms/torsi.

[Fate 6]

Mizeur, on 11 January 2015 - 01:29 PM, said:

The gap between the top mechs in each faction and the rest of the mechs in each faction is still too large.

And the best mechs in the Clan are still somewhat better than the best mechs in the Inner Sphere, largely because the Clan mechs are both better generalists and have enough loadout variety to also be purpose built while the IS mechs usually have to be purpose built.

I have to mostly agree with this. Some IS mediums are alright, but for the most part they've fallen short of the heavies after the quirks. IS quirked heavies are good but those are the lighter heavies and there's a big gap between 65 tons and 85 tons. This is why we see IS fielding almost purely 35, 65, 85, and 100 ton mechs in CW. There are hardly any mediums which make the cut and that's why the Stormcrow is so good for the clans.


My feeling has been that Timby is very strong but the only really OP mech for the Clans is the doomcrow.

The bad IS and Clan mechs need buffs so we see more variety

[Adiuvo]

TripleEhBeef, on 11 January 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

The Timber is really, really good, but I hesitate to call it OP. Yes, it is a heavy mech with medium mech size and speed with a firepower potential that rivals assaults. And yes, no IS heavy can match its mobility and firepower. But it's not the hands down super-mech in every situation. Timbers do extremely well when they has the ability to control the range of an engagement due to the nature of Clan weapons. But get it into a cramped, knife fighting area with lots of cover, and the IS big gun mechs can bring it down.

Same with the Doomcrow. Get in its face with an IS brawler and you can knock it out by nailing components with PPFLD guns, SRMs, and short duration lasers while tanking damage on your shield arms/torsi.

Situations like that are due to misplays and not an inherent property of the chassis.

Configure a Stormcrow or a Timberwolf as a brawler and the result would not be the same.

Edited by Adiuvo, 11 January 2015 - 01:51 PM.

[Zolaz]

Comparing the Direwolf to the King Crab is pretty funny. The Direwolf can pack more of everything. It has those two Clan Gauss and all the laser vomit you want. Or it can pack its suppression fire UACs.

Matter of fact, when you compare Clan tech to IS tech, the Clan comes out a winner. Lighter, less slots and tech that the IS isnt even allowed to have. XL engines that let you live longer and give you greater maneuverability than standard engines. Clans take that in heat, but throw in some Ballistic weapons and that takes care of that.

Bad pilots make bad choices. Good pilots use their advantages to directly favor them. There is no fixing stupid and PGI cant nerf intelligence.

[El Bandito]

TripleEhBeef, on 11 January 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

The Timber is really, really good, but I hesitate to call it OP. Yes, it is a heavy mech with medium mech size and speed with a firepower potential that rivals assaults. And yes, no IS heavy can match its mobility and firepower. But it's not the hands down super-mech in every situation.

A mech does not have to be an omnipotent supermech to be called OP. Back during open beta, the Splatcat was considered OP due to the ability of killing Assault mechs in 2 volleys. That A1 build had a lot of shortcomings, most notably the lack of range and vulnerability of the weapon pods, but it was considered OP nonetheless.

Timbie is right now is not just the best Heavy, but it is heads above the other Heavies. Name another Heavy mech with "medium mech size and speed with a firepower potential that rivals assaults"--you can't.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 January 2015 - 01:59 PM.

[Kiiyor]

Blueduck, on 11 January 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

The only mechs that could really potentially be called OP on the clan side are the Stormcrow, Timberwolf, and Hellbringer.

The King Crab is more than a match for a direwolf so I don't think we should include him in the list anymore.

Really? None of the intrepid pilots in my circles seem to think so - the only advantage the Crab has over the Dire is maneuverability, and even then the extra speed isn't spectacular. Dual Gauss+Assorted WUB is far more firepower than the Crab can handle.

Not saying you're wrong, just saying it hasn't been my experience.

[TripleEhBeef]

Adiuvo, on 11 January 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

Situations like that are due to misplays and not an inherent property of the chassis.

Configure a Stormcrow or a Timberwolf as a brawler and the result would not be the same.

In which case they would be at the mercy of IS snipers.

Don't get me wrong, that the Timber and Crow can specialize to such a degree definitely puts them far above the pack in terms of versatility and user friendliness. But that does come with its drawbacks, push them out of their comfort zones and they can go down hard, the same way that a Centurion derping about in the middle of Alpine is little more than a moving target for the LRM Gods.

Don't take this as trying to defend a crutch, because I've yet to even try driving a Clan mech.

[El Bandito]

TripleEhBeef, on 11 January 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Don't take this as trying to defend a crutch, because I've yet to even try driving a Clan mech.

Then I suggest you to drive them and see for yourself. I am writing my posts as an IS pilot who had mastered the Crow, the Timbie, and the Direwhale, and saw just how strong they are first hand.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 January 2015 - 02:01 PM.

[Brody319]

Its really easy to understand.

1st rule of IS whining. All Clans are OP, because the Timberwolf and Stormcrow are really good. Even if the other clan mechs were so underpowered they were DOA because they have the Timberwolf and Stormcrow we should ignore those bad ones
2nd rule of IS whining, All Clans deserve to be nerfed because 2-3 chassis are really good.
3rd rule of IS whining, All Clan players use clan mechs as a crutch and would never ever be able to win in a fight if they used an IS mech.


Next time you see an IS player whining about clans, see if they are following the rules. If not, be sure to point it out to them.

[nehebkau]

Its the engines.

Similar speed = easier to keep together.
Standard engine with xl engine weight = more survivability & more ability to carry weapons = more damage = more kills.

Imagine a FS9-A wubber with a clan XL rather than the usual IS XL.

Edited by nehebkau, 11 January 2015 - 02:09 PM.

[Adiuvo]

TripleEhBeef, on 11 January 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

In which case they would be at the mercy of IS snipers.

Don't get me wrong, that the Timber and Crow can specialize to such a degree definitely puts them far above the pack in terms of versatility and user friendliness. But that does come with its drawbacks, push them out of their comfort zones and they can go down hard, the same way that a Centurion derping about in the middle of Alpine is little more than a moving target for the LRM Gods.

Don't take this as trying to defend a crutch, because I've yet to even try driving a Clan mech.

Right, but getting pushed out of your comfort zone is a misplay on part of the clan players. It's not an argument for balance due to that.

[Senor Cataclysmo]

Thorqemada, on 11 January 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

Another Clans be not OP thread....so hear the word of the twelfth Jager:
http://www.nogutsnog...hp?topic=2673.0

PS: For the Deaf -> Clans still OP

Just listening to this on youtube. Gotta be honest I couldn't disagree with Tyler more strongly. "Cooling more rapidly than any IS mech, the clans are still OP" he says. Whatever. It is possible to make arguments for the Clans still being OP, but superior cooling efficiency is not one of them.

Then he goes on to talk about how laser vomit is easier to use in trades than PPCs because apparently its easier to shield when you use it. Rubbish! You can fire a PPC and twist immediately while the projectile travels, with laser vomit you have to face the enemy mech. Not only that but the enemy can spread laser damage and last longer, unlike a PPC which does burst damage.

He makes the point that PPCs are harder to aim. Yeah, fair enough, that is true, but keeping an ERLL on a single weak component for its entire burn time is, I would argue, a harder skill to learn than leading your target with PPCs. *especially* if you're moving while you shoot instead of stationary sniping.

I don't know if Tyler is using clan energy weapons *very* differently from me, but his experience of them seems to be exactly the opposite of what I've seen.

Of course all of this is not to say that the Clans *aren't* OP, they may very well still be, but I disagree strongly with his reasoning as to *why* they are.

Edited by Senor Cataclysmo, 11 January 2015 - 02:12 PM.