71 replies to this topic

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Heat penalties as they should be, are on all mech sheets for 20 last years. Indeed there are movement penalties, but nothing like OP proposed.

[Nightmare1]

VinJade, on 13 January 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

from where I stand to help balance things out all of the range shell weapons that should have a min range on them, AC 2s, GRs, ect should be in place since the standard PPC has its min range still intact.

though the heat scale over all looks like it could work.
though annoying lights like a locust with twin Flamers could really ruin the day of any over heating mech such as those that use heat heavy weapons.

in the end though the idea is a nice one just would need a lot of work and balance problems would have to be tackled from energy to ballistic to try and prevent it from favoring one style or the other.

I really hope you're kidding. Min ranges on anything other than PPCs and missiles is a seriously bad idea. Also, Flamers are broken and rather useless right now. If a Mech came at me with one, even a Light, I'd laugh my head off while I shot off its legs or punched out its torsos.

The scale change is an awful idea. With a few minor exceptions, most weapons are fairly well balanced now and BattleMech diversity is making a comeback. These suggested changes would kill everything that's been accomplished and completely unbalance the game yet again.

happy mech, on 13 January 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

from my experience with assaults (awesome, atlas, stalker), heavies (quickdraw, jagermech, ctf, cpt), they all run hot except jagermech with uac5+mg, hot because of high burst in short time
even from your example and my example, if you run the firestarter at 70-80% it would get 40% penalty, so move at 90 km/h, which is not that horrible

Okay, when I made my "farewell" post, I didn't realize that you were new to MechWarrior and BT. I'm sorry if I sounded condenscending; I didn't realize that your suggestions stemmed from ignorance and thought you were just an awfully un-funny troll.

That being said, yes, all those Mechs do run hot. Nerfing them because of this is not a good idea. They all already have issues with heat management and do not need additional ones compounding the shutdown problems they already face. Case in point, Awesomes, already something of a Unicorn, would vanish entirely as would Quickdraws.

As far as a Light Mech moving 90 kph is concerned, it's dead. Speed is the Light Mechs' only real defense against the superior firepower of everything else on the battlefield. Because of their tonnage constraints, they are forced to energy boat in most scenarios with poor heat dissipation. Nerfing them further would make them vanish from the game. In other words, that "Launch" button will go from showing 11% Lights to showing about 1% Lights.

happy mech, on 13 January 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

it is a nerf to energy alphas (which many clan are built on because of superior range and no need for ammo), but you are saying that like the IS mechs do not use energy, they just do not have a weapon they can fire at 400 metres without a ghostheat so the damage and heat spike is not so high (2 ll compared to 6 cerml)
if you give IS quirks, you are nerfing clan mechs, which imbalances the system a lot more (counter one superpower with another, instead of toning it all down in general)

Nowhere in my post did I state that IS Mechs do not use energy. The IS has a lot of energy boats that would suffer under your heat scale.

As far as Clan superiority is concerned, it sounds like you need a background lesson in BT/MW. Clans are supposed to be significantly stronger than the IS. In this game, they have been nerfed through the floor to make the IS competitive with them. Any more nerfing, and there will be no distinguishable differences between the Clans and the IS. In fact, most Clan Mechs are now inferior to many IS Mechs due to the quirk system. Only the T-Wolf, Stormcrow, and Daishi (easily killed if alone) appear as actual threats; the rest are so much cannon fodder.

happy mech, on 13 January 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

ghost heat does help to spread alphas (ll, ppc), while totally nerfing chainfiring 2 groups or more
ok maybe i should talk about burst to name it properly, be it alpha or not
if flamers drain 1 heat from you and 1 (or less) heat from your enemy, people would use them i think, now they can either be abused or totally useless
machineguns should not be a main weapon of an assault, did i say that?

Ghost Heat is an imperfect solution to the problem of weapon balancing, but it is, I think, better than what you describe. Like I said, your new scale will kill many (personally, I think about half) of the Mechs in this game.

Burst firing is a legitimate form of combat in MechWarrior, as are Alpha Strikes. They both have been for a long time now.

Flamers need serious work.

You didn't directly, but the inference I got from what you wrote, was that you want to see the rarer weapons, like MGs, Flamers, and Gauss, be used more heavily; the solution of which is to nerf about 80% of the game (Mechs, Tech, and Weapons) by drastically altering the heat scale.

happy mech, on 13 January 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

fair enough

happy mech, on 13 January 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

the gauss is a powerful weapon regarding heat, i suggest charging one gauss drains your resources, making your mech move/turn slower by some amount (20%? 40% for 2 gauss), making it more of a sniper weapon not so much for brawling/self defence

Gauss Rifles are on the way out; nerfing them further will just speed their demise. Since charge-up was implemented, they vanished from the brawling scene. Now they already aren't much use except as sniping weapons, and the fact that they explode upon being critted (which is easy to do) makes them undesirable for many pilots.

Ton for ton and slot for slot, there are much better weapons available than Gauss Rifles now.

happy mech, on 13 January 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

other than that, sustained dps will not change, yes burst will be limited as you said, to prevent pop and shoot, or pop and get blown off, hopefully providing more room for other tactics and builds
acs use continuous fire, it may be hard to fight it with pure energy with chainfire as it currently is, but the pure energy is quite overpowered now, especially in cw

Sustained DPS will change because DPS is dependent on your heat. The lower your heat cap, the shorter your sustained firing time, and, therefore, the lower your sustained DPS.

Pop and shoot is how things actually work. You're supposed to use cover and not stand around in the open.

This scale change will limit the number of builds available; not expand it.

ACs are heavy and don't deal much damage. They're high DPS and solid shot damage (for IS) is the reason why they are even worth equipping. The Clans ACs are pretty sad and only good for screen shake since they got nerfed so hard. IS has a clear advantage in the ACs department here; something it will lose if ACs get nerfed with your scale.

happy mech, on 13 January 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

i do not have experience with battletech prior to this game,

That explains a lot about this thread.

happy mech, on 13 January 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

, sounds like the min range (or a progression of damage) could help to differentiate between acs and lasers more than just by how cool or heavy they are

Tonnage, ammo and slot restrictions, range, heat, screen shake, accuracy, and vulnerability (ex: Gauss Rifles exploding when critted) are all important when it comes to deciding what weapons to mount on your Mech and not just damage.

happy mech, on 13 January 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

yup the locust with twin flamers could keep a 10 dhs mech in check, though being only able to fire sparingly itself as well, or use mgs

No, actually it can't because the 10 DHS Mech will turn around and pop the Locust. I pilot Locusts extensively; they are a very fragile Mech and Flamers simply are not as effective as you think.

happy mech, on 13 January 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

(i did hear something about collisions coming back, this would make game even more broad)

I dearly miss knockdowns.

happy mech, on 13 January 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

indeed, it all comes down to balance, energy vs ballistic is the main issue here

Each is unique and has its own pros and cons.

Ballistics deal more damage, have more range, and deal less heat. However, they are very heavy and are slot hogs because of their ammunition constraints. Similar things can be said for missiles.

Energy weapons are less heavy and do not require ammo, but tend to be hotter and have shorter ranges. It's a trade-off.

All things considered, some weapons simply will be better for certain types of Mechs or combat. Trying to make all weapons equally competitive with each other ruins the game by removing the distinguishable attributes that makes the weapons unique. Why pick a Large Laser over an AC5 if the outcome will be the same due to a convoluted heat scale?

In the end, we are reduced to clubbing each other to death like a bunch of crazed baby seals.

VinJade, on 13 January 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

well I do know one thing, whenever someone runs into me my leg does take damage or an atlas runs into me I suffer torso damage so I think its safe to say that collision damage is there, lol.

still balance needs to be dealt with so one does not favor the other.

Collision damage is negligible. He's talking about real collision damage and knock-downs like what we had back in the good ol' days of Closed Beta.

Also, it's perfectly fine for ballistics to be favored in heat over energy weapons. There are other drawbacks to ballistics which help balance them with energy weapons; heat is not the only way to do this.

[Firewuff]

Been calling for this for a while. The curve should start higher and not so sever (max penalty of 40-50%) but it really would'nt affect lights all that much except the 6 Mlas firestarters, you get 1 shot rather than 2 before having any pealties. it would complete help some of the massive alpha DW builds..... you get 2 shots then you are a slug. love this

[Nightmare1]

Firewuff, on 13 January 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

Been calling for this for a while. The curve should start higher and not so sever (max penalty of 40-50%) but it really would'nt affect lights all that much except the 6 Mlas firestarters, you get 1 shot rather than 2 before having any pealties. it would complete help some of the massive alpha DW builds..... you get 2 shots then you are a slug. love this

D-Wolves already only get two Alphas before they overheat; Clan weaponry is significantly hotter than IS.

Besides, D-Wolves are fairly easy to take down. They slow moving slugs that are all torso; the only time they are dangerous is if they are spearheading a charge. Even then, they're not too hard to eliminate.

[Firewuff]

Agreed but it would make it even more dangerous for them to peek out and fire because geting back to cover is slower.

[Hoffenstein]

OP is getting a lot of flak for this one, but I have to agree with him. This sounds like a solid idea that might requie *gasp* changing your builds! It may even make some people think twice if they want to hose out lasers like a Pink Floyd concert. Yes, Ballistics will be exceptional...in the short run. Ammo has a tendency to explode as well when it gets hit, heatsinks don't.

[Nightmare1]

Assaults would be turned into static turrets.

Lights would vanish.

Mediums would become your new Lights and Heavies would become your new Mediums.

Game diversity would die.

It's just...that...simple...

I mean, really, how can you figure that a 50% cut to the heat scale, without any sort of accommodation with respect to dissipation, can be a good thing? It's cheap to say, "Change your build," but that ignores the fact that we should not be forced to do so to fix an imaginary problem. Alphas and burst fire aren't a big deal so long as you are a cautious pilot. If you stand around in the open or go zooming around corners, then you should expect to be pummeled. This does not necessitate a change to the heat scale to accommodate poor game play choices though.

Check out this video below and skip to 7:50 minutes.



I solo a Dire Wolf with just two MLs in a toe-to-toe slug out because:
1) Dire Wolves are hot!
2) I am able to put the damage into the same component each time due to gunnery skill.
3) Dire Wolves are hot!
4) The pilot wasn't as good as me. And, of course,
5) DIRE WOLVES AND ALL CLAN MECHS RUN HOT!!!

Seriously, they do and it makes them very easy to kill compared to many IS chassis.

The game has come a long way in terms of balancing and is nearly there! All we need to do is spit-polish a few places on the ship and maybe tighten a few loose bolts; not put a hole in the bottom of it!

[Fiona Marshe]

Mechanically, this could apply a penalty to the Max Throttle (same as losing a leg reduces you to max 40% throttle)

[Nightmare1]

That's marginally better, but still a bad idea.

[VinJade]

Nightmare I am by no means kidding.
There is a reason for the min as it was meant to balance them out and would do so again if they are to help keep things from going one sided.

I know having the MWO AC with the same characteristics* as the BT ones would be a little tough getting use to but it shouldn't change things that much.

*or close to the same as if they had the exact same characteristics then the UACs would burn out instead of just jamming and anyone from the TT can tell you how much that hurt having a useless weapon taking up your left arm or right torso.

Edited by VinJade, 13 January 2015 - 07:47 PM.

[Lily from animove]

happy mech, on 13 January 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

from my experience with assaults (awesome, atlas, stalker), heavies (quickdraw, jagermech, ctf, cpt), they all run hot except jagermech with uac5+mg, hot because of high burst in short time
even from your example and my example, if you run the firestarter at 70-80% it would get 40% penalty, so move at 90 km/h, which is not that horrible


it is a nerf to energy alphas (which many clan are built on because of superior range and no need for ammo), but you are saying that like the IS mechs do not use energy, they just do not have a weapon they can fire at 400 metres without a ghostheat so the damage and heat spike is not so high (2 ll compared to 6 cerml)
if you give IS quirks, you are nerfing clan mechs, which imbalances the system a lot more (counter one superpower with another, instead of toning it all down in general)


ghost heat does help to spread alphas (ll, ppc), while totally nerfing chainfiring 2 groups or more
ok maybe i should talk about burst to name it properly, be it alpha or not
if flamers drain 1 heat from you and 1 (or less) heat from your enemy, people would use them i think, now they can either be abused or totally useless
machineguns should not be a main weapon of an assault, did i say that?



fair enough



the gauss is a powerful weapon regarding heat, i suggest charging one gauss drains your resources, making your mech move/turn slower by some amount (20%? 40% for 2 gauss), making it more of a sniper weapon not so much for brawling/self defence

other than that, sustained dps will not change, yes burst will be limited as you said, to prevent pop and shoot, or pop and get blown off, hopefully providing more room for other tactics and builds
acs use continuous fire, it may be hard to fight it with pure energy with chainfire as it currently is, but the pure energy is quite overpowered now, especially in cw



i do not have experience with battletech prior to this game, sounds like the min range (or a progression of damage) could help to differentiate between acs and lasers more than just by how cool or heavy they are

yup the locust with twin flamers could keep a 10 dhs mech in check, though being only able to fire sparingly itself as well, or use mgs
(i did hear something about collisions coming back, this would make game even more broad)

indeed, it all comes down to balance, energy vs ballistic is the main issue here


i apologize for the long post

no its not about dps, its about how energy wepaons made this way, would entiely change the whole playstyle. because movement is one of the major aspects in MWO for successful mechwarrioring. Does not care if you alpha the 6 CERM or if you sequalfire them. Such a emch will run horrible hot to a useless degree. Does not care if that 3 ML 3 SL IS light is switching from alpha to chainfired method, he will still run hot.
it would basically render the entire range of emchs having to stay below 50% heat. or with other words: we could decrease the heta treshold to fixed 30 heat and basically have the same result.

my 6 UAC 5 dakkawolf does give 0 f*cks about this change because it does not heat up at all. it would just wreck even easier through everything because you bsically nerf every mixed and laserboating mechs.
And mechs like a Nova that are already at the low tier of usage and efficiency will just be completely pointless.

Kaeb Odellas, on 13 January 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

Why not both? TruDubs and heat penalties?

maybe, maybe not would hd to be tested, is a bit a pandoras box without really knowing how it turns out.

[VinJade]

Quote

Assaults would be turned into static turrets.
Lights would vanish.
Mediums would become your new Lights
Heavies would become your new Mediums.

so in other words the normal house steiner point of view, lol

[Nightmare1]

VinJade, on 14 January 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

so in other words the normal house steiner point of view, lol

...Except that I'm a Merc who has no interest in role playing as Steiner. When the contract is up, I'll simply move on to the next House.

I can see the end result of this heat scale suggestion. I don't have some happy, naive point of view that obscures it. Everything is a direct cause-and-effect in both life and gaming. Altering the heat scale like this, and assuming that it will have no significant impact on gameplay, is a self-deluding thought. It will have a significant impact. It will cause Lights, an already underplayed Mech, to decline in number. It's simple logic. Who wants to play a glass bubble if said glass bubble no longer gets to maintain its speed? Assaults already move so slowly that they won't mind moving a little slower. Mediums will downgrade their weapons to match the old complement found on Lights so that they don't overheat, and Heavies will do the same with regard to Mediums. In the end, we wind up in a setting where we are clubbing each other to death until an Assault waddles up and blows everything away.

That's a boring style of play that constricts variability and will be a game killer. I for one do not wish this to happen.

[Nightmare1]

VinJade, on 13 January 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

Nightmare I am by no means kidding.
There is a reason for the min as it was meant to balance them out and would do so again if they are to help keep things from going one sided.

I know having the MWO AC with the same characteristics* as the BT ones would be a little tough getting use to but it shouldn't change things that much.

*or close to the same as if they had the exact same characteristics then the UACs would burn out instead of just jamming and anyone from the TT can tell you how much that hurt having a useless weapon taking up your left arm or right torso.

Min ranges on shells and bullets is about as dumb as snake mittens. It's understandable on missiles since the warhead needs time to arm itself, but bullets and shells need no such time. If you put your thumb in front of the barrel of a gun and pull the trigger, I guarantee that damage will be done. Besides, putting a min range on them would kill the weapon and push things farther towards the energy side of things. In short, it would have the direct opposite of balance.

PPCs are marginally excusable by invoking time for the plasma envelope to develop.

Second, BT is a board game, not a video game. These are two different beasts. I like board games considerably, but I recognize that a strategy board game dependent on dice rolls will not transition well into an actionable online shooter.

In short, this isn't TT and it should not be modeled after it. Similarities can be drawn and inspiration can be taken from TT, but the two games have entirely different dynamics that cannot simply be copied over. If you want to play TT, petition PGI to take revive MW:Tactics or play the online, player-created version of TT.

[VinJade]

I'm not saying it should be fully modeled after BT just that somethings should still stick close to the source that's all.
please don't get me wrong I like the game just somethings need to be balanced and if this was to go into effect then it would lean way to far to the ballistic weapon side putting energy users as risk or others that use high heat weapons.

the only other thing I truly don't like is how you have to charge up the GR when it should charge up on its own.

as to the Steiner comment, its so easy to poke fun at them because of how easy they make it.

[happy mech]

Nightmare1, on 13 January 2015 - 05:24 PM, said:

Assaults would be turned into static turrets.

Lights would vanish.

Mediums would become your new Lights and Heavies would become your new Mediums.

Game diversity would die.

It's just...that...simple...

I mean, really, how can you figure that a 50% cut to the heat scale, without any sort of accommodation with respect to dissipation, can be a good thing? It's cheap to say, "Change your build," but that ignores the fact that we should not be forced to do so to fix an imaginary problem. Alphas and burst fire aren't a big deal so long as you are a cautious pilot. If you stand around in the open or go zooming around corners, then you should expect to be pummeled. This does not necessitate a change to the heat scale to accommodate poor game play choices though.

Check out this video below and skip to 7:50 minutes.

I solo a Dire Wolf with just two MLs in a toe-to-toe slug out because:
1) Dire Wolves are hot!
2) I am able to put the damage into the same component each time due to gunnery skill.
3) Dire Wolves are hot!
4) The pilot wasn't as good as me. And, of course,
5) DIRE WOLVES AND ALL CLAN MECHS RUN HOT!!!

Seriously, they do and it makes them very easy to kill compared to many IS chassis.

The game has come a long way in terms of balancing and is nearly there! All we need to do is spit-polish a few places on the ship and maybe tighten a few loose bolts; not put a hole in the bottom of it!

static turrets = dead turrets, even your video shows it

game diversity would die? how can the 90% energy builds currently be even less diverse?

direwolves and all clan mechs run hot? maybe because they got more damage? and more range? lighter weapons? smaller heatsinks?
sorry, but all mechs run hot if you build them for high alphas

so you call the game nearly at perfect balance and in other post you say the clan acs are sad? what reason is to use clan acs if you can just poke for 100 damage at 400m and hide while you cool down?

Fiona Marshe, on 13 January 2015 - 05:41 PM, said:

Mechanically, this could apply a penalty to the Max Throttle (same as losing a leg reduces you to max 40% throttle)

this is a great way how to program this in

Lily from animove, on 14 January 2015 - 04:22 AM, said:

no its not about dps, its about how energy wepaons made this way, would entiely change the whole playstyle. because movement is one of the major aspects in MWO for successful mechwarrioring. Does not care if you alpha the 6 CERM or if you sequalfire them. Such a emch will run horrible hot to a useless degree. Does not care if that 3 ML 3 SL IS light is switching from alpha to chainfired method, he will still run hot.
it would basically render the entire range of emchs having to stay below 50% heat. or with other words: we could decrease the heta treshold to fixed 30 heat and basically have the same result.

my 6 UAC 5 dakkawolf does give 0 f*cks about this change because it does not heat up at all. it would just wreck even easier through everything because you bsically nerf every mixed and laserboating mechs.
And mechs like a Nova that are already at the low tier of usage and efficiency will just be completely pointless.

yes it is effectively making the heat cap 50%
movement is an aspect i am trying to promote, as you are more likely to move knowing no mech can drop you in 2 or 3 alphas
i did test a firestarter on terra therma, staying between 90-100% heat and 40-50% heat
atlas left arm+torso took 55 seconds to be taken out in both tests
the only difference is the 50% heat which you can use for 2 alphas (which is what my system is trying to address)

if you have a good cool build, nice, but with my system you should expect a lot more mechs within 200m around you pummeling you with srms, mpls, lbxs, flamers (1 heat for 1 heat), mgs
nova is screwed by ghost heat, i have a mechanic to still use the ghost heat but allow chainfire faster (if you are interested http://mwomercs.com/...69#entry3971069 )

Nightmare1, on 14 January 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

...Except that I'm a Merc who has no interest in role playing as Steiner. When the contract is up, I'll simply move on to the next House.

I can see the end result of this heat scale suggestion. I don't have some happy, naive point of view that obscures it. Everything is a direct cause-and-effect in both life and gaming. Altering the heat scale like this, and assuming that it will have no significant impact on gameplay, is a self-deluding thought. It will have a significant impact. It will cause Lights, an already underplayed Mech, to decline in number. It's simple logic. Who wants to play a glass bubble if said glass bubble no longer gets to maintain its speed? Assaults already move so slowly that they won't mind moving a little slower. Mediums will downgrade their weapons to match the old complement found on Lights so that they don't overheat, and Heavies will do the same with regard to Mediums. In the end, we wind up in a setting where we are clubbing each other to death until an Assault waddles up and blows everything away.

That's a boring style of play that constricts variability and will be a game killer. I for one do not wish this to happen.

my firesterter could maintain the same firepower and speed both at 90-100% heat and 40-50% heat, i will want to still play it

[Nightmare1]

VinJade, on 14 January 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

I'm not saying it should be fully modeled after BT just that somethings should still stick close to the source that's all.
please don't get me wrong I like the game just somethings need to be balanced and if this was to go into effect then it would lean way to far to the ballistic weapon side putting energy users as risk or others that use high heat weapons.

the only other thing I truly don't like is how you have to charge up the GR when it should charge up on its own.

as to the Steiner comment, its so easy to poke fun at them because of how easy they make it.

Ah, gotcha.

Yes, that's exactly my point! Right now there are a handful of weapons that need help because they are under or overused. Implementing this scale would so drastically unbalance the game that it would require another drastic measure, like nonsensical min ranges on ballistics, to try to fix it. That's way more work and grief than necessary to fix a few weapons.

Yeah, the Gauss really needs some help. I don't see it any more and find myself missing it. I was never a big fan of the weapon, but I liked watching the slugs fly and seeing their effect, even if I was the one on the receiving end.

No worries!

happy mech, on 14 January 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

static turrets = dead turrets, even your video shows it

The vid shows things as they are now. When your scale goes into effect, those turrets will be mowing down lighter enemy Mechs that must equip significantly less weapon systems to maintain the same speed, or move much too slowly to effectively fight.

happy mech, on 14 January 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

game diversity would die? how can the 90% energy builds currently be even less diverse?

I'm really not seeing this 90% energy figure here.

If you're talking CW, then sure, I can see that. However, this is not a problem with balancing so much as a problem with Invasion Mode. Ammo tends to be an issue in CW both in terms of explosion risk and shortages. There is also the issue of weight and speed. CW favors fast Mechs which means big engines. Mechs with Standards will last longer and stand a better chance at hurting the generators than Excel Mechs. Thus, putting in a big Standard means un-equipping heavy weapons, leaving pilots with primarily energy builds. It's all cause and effect.

If you're talking Skirmish, Assault, or Conquest, I see things as pretty well balanced. Those tend to be the non-competitive "Bring whatever's in your grab bag," kind of matches. I see a lot of ballistics, missiles, and energy there without any one type being favored more than others (except on Challenge Weekends when everyone boats LRMs).

happy mech, on 14 January 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

direwolves and all clan mechs run hot? maybe because they got more damage? and more range? lighter weapons? smaller heatsinks?
sorry, but all mechs run hot if you build them for high alphas

Okay, this is another issue of ignorance. I don't mean that meanly; you yourself stated that you have little experience with the BT/MW Universe. Simply put, Clans are better in every single area with respect to the IS. To balance them, video game developers have typically made them run substantially hotter than IS Mechs (Which is not Lore). To put this simply, yes, Clan weapons do have more power and longer ranges, but they have longer recycle/recharge times and have higher heat draws. As a result, a Clan Mech running the same loadout as a comparable IS Mech will Alpha with a much higher heat buildup than its IS counterpart. That's the balance. If you've never run Clans before (which I'm assuming you haven't judging from your posts here), it is very difficult to manage their heat. A lot of pilots simply can't do it.

happy mech, on 14 January 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

so you call the game nearly at perfect balance and in other post you say the clan acs are sad? what reason is to use clan acs if you can just poke for 100 damage at 400m and hide while you cool down?

You're getting emotional and not reading my posts. I said the game was nearly balanced but that there was still work to be done. I never said we had perfect balance, and I used the Clan ACs as an example of this.

Furthermore, it's okay if the Clanners deal that much damage. They're supposed to be more powerful. The heat is a problem for them though. While that Clanner is hiding to cool down is the perfect time to jump him and kill him.

If Clan ACs are balanced more effectively, then they would be used more readily due to their lower heat and the screen shake they cause. A lot of Clan pilots would prefer this since energy boating is difficult in Clan Mechs.

happy mech, on 14 January 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

yes it is effectively making the heat cap 50%
movement is an aspect i am trying to promote, as you are more likely to move knowing no mech can drop you in 2 or 3 alphas

Movement has always been important and always will. The team that turtles in place is the team that dies; the fast moving, aggressive teams normally win. What you are suggesting would limit movement, not increase it, by making running battles and brawling significantly more difficult. You proposal will promote the static kind of play you claim to oppose. This is one of the reasons why I am vehemently against your proposal.

happy mech, on 14 January 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

i did test a firestarter on terra therma, staying between 90-100% heat and 40-50% heat
atlas left arm+torso took 55 seconds to be taken out in both tests
the only difference is the 50% heat which you can use for 2 alphas (which is what my system is trying to address)

*Sigh* Alright, let me explain this for you:

Your tests each only used a 10 point scale. They were, in effect, no different from each other. A better test would be to attack the Atlas while staying between 0-50% on Test 1, and then staying between 0-100% on Test 2. That would more accurately reflect the changes you propose. I guarantee that Test 2 will result in a faster time to kill for that Atlas arm.

From my own experience, two Alphas will place my Mechs at or over 50%. A third alpha will bring me to around 80% or higher. That's why I use weapon grouping and chain firing more often than Alphas. Alphas, though flashy and powerful, significantly reduce your fighting capabilities because of the heat draw. Currently, I think two to three Alphas is perfectly fine to have in-game. That third Alpha requires some serious thought from the pilot before it's use.

I will add that some Mechs, such as the Nova, can't Alpha.

happy mech, on 14 January 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

if you have a good cool build, nice, but with my system you should expect a lot more mechs within 200m around you pummeling you with srms, mpls, lbxs, flamers (1 heat for 1 heat), mgs
nova is screwed by ghost heat, i have a mechanic to still use the ghost heat but allow chainfire faster (if you are interested http://mwomercs.com/...69#entry3971069 )

Um, I already get pummeled by SRMs, Pulse Lasers, and LBXs. Not sure why you think those systems aren't in the game. I see SRMs very frequently, actually. In fact, they are one of the systems most used by Clanners because they work well. LBXs aren't as popular because they don't deal as much pin-point damage, but they are better at critting. Pulse lasers are very common.

I am confused by your logic on how cutting the heat scale by half will result in more Pulse Laser usage. That's counter-intuitive and highly illogical.

happy mech, on 14 January 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

my firesterter could maintain the same firepower and speed both at 90-100% heat and 40-50% heat, i will want to still play it

Under your own scale, your Firestarter would not maintain the same speed at 90-100% heat. I don't think you understand your own proposal.

[happy mech]

Nightmare1, on 14 January 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

I am confused by your logic on how cutting the heat scale by half will result in more Pulse Laser usage. That's counter-intuitive and highly illogical.

medium pulse lasers are more heat efficient than normal, ll, or erll

Nightmare1, on 14 January 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

Under your own scale, your Firestarter would not maintain the same speed at 90-100% heat. I don't think you understand your own proposal.

"my firesterter could maintain the same firepower and speed both at 90-100% heat and 40-50% heat, i will want to still play it"
my proposal - movement penalties over 50% (example) heat
your claim - "When your scale goes into effect, those turrets will be mowing down lighter enemy Mechs that must equip significantly less weapon systems to maintain the same speed, or move much too slowly to effectively fight."

situation now - "my firesterter could maintain the same firepower and speed both at 90-100% heat and 40-50% heat"
situation with my proposal - "my firesterter could maintain the same firepower and speed both at 90-100% heat and 40-50% heat"

[Nightmare1]

happy mech, on 14 January 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

medium pulse lasers are more heat efficient than normal, ll, or erll

Yes, that's right. However, we're talking about different fighting styles now. LL and ERLL are for ranged combat while MPLs are for brawling. What you are now saying, is that you believe LLs and ERLLs are in need of a nerf to drive people to use MPLs, and that ranged fighting should be reduced. That's not fair to the players who enjoy ranged combat.

Personally, I like brawling and equip a lot of MPLs. They are a very common weapon and do not need a "push" to become more widely used. I also equip LLs on two of my 60 Mechs, and an ERLL a third one. I don't think it's fair to be forced to use different configurations simply because you don't like how I play.

On top of that, I doubt that people using ERLLs will convert to MPLs. Instead, they will switch over to PPCs or some other ranged weapon, prompting you to start another thread demanding some other game changing mechanic to be implemented to drive them to play how you would like.

happy mech, on 14 January 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

"my firesterter could maintain the same firepower and speed both at 90-100% heat and 40-50% heat, i will want to still play it"
my proposal - movement penalties over 50% (example) heat
your claim - "When your scale goes into effect, those turrets will be mowing down lighter enemy Mechs that must equip significantly less weapon systems to maintain the same speed, or move much too slowly to effectively fight."

situation now - "my firesterter could maintain the same firepower and speed both at 90-100% heat and 40-50% heat"
situation with my proposal - "my firesterter could maintain the same firepower and speed both at 90-100% heat and 40-50% heat"

Currently, a Firestarter with a 100 kph speed cap would always move 100 kph up until it shut down. That's a good thing since the Firestarter's chief defense is it's speed. Under your scale, it would only move 15 kph (85% penalty and insta-death). Last I checked, 100 kph does not equal 15 kph. Thus, under your new scale, your Firestarter would not maintain the same firepower and speed.

Thus, you don't understand math and you don't understand your own proposal.

[Khobai]

In tabletop you lose -1 movement for every 5 excess heat. 1 movement in tabletop is equivalent to 17.82 kph in MWO. So for every 5 heat over your heatsink threshold you should lose -17.82 kph. A mech cannot go slower than 1 though (17.82 kph) and the max speed penalty possible is -5 or -89.1kph, since anymore heat beyond that would make you shut down automatically anyway.

You should only suffer penalties if you exceed your heatsink threshold. Your heatsink threshold should be equal to the number of heatsinks you have (x2 for DHS). A mech with 20 DHS would have a heatsink threshold of 40. So for every 5 heat over 40 it would suffer -17.82 kph.

The game should record your mech's heat every second. Every 10 seconds the game should take the average of your mech's heat over the last 10 seconds and that average should be used to determine your heat penalty. So with 20 DHS and a threshold of 40, if your mech's average heat was 45, youd suffer -17.82 kph penalty for 10 seconds. If your mech's average heat was 50 youd suffer -35.64 kph for 10 seconds. And if your mech ever reached 40+30=70 heat it would shut down automatically.

Thats the most true-to-tabletop way of putting heat movement penalties into MWO.

Edited by Khobai, 14 January 2015 - 05:55 PM.