71 replies to this topic

[Nightmare1]

Lily from animove, on 15 January 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

I amde a few test,

I tested a 6 flamer and 6 CERSPL (they give me exactly 20% heat) on my nova now which with some "tabfiring and pressing the overheat putton can asily be kept at a constant 101%.

with the override, it does damage your mech very significantly.

With shutting down, it seems that when you heattreshold reaches 106% you start taking minimum damage, but below this, with shutdown sequence it seems to not cause any damage.

I think I understand what you are saying. By consistently running at 101%, you are taking damage, yes?

I was referring more to the occasional override. I've hit override on several occasions to escape a situation without accruing damage to my Mech, despite overheating. I think it's a chance mechanic that increases in likelihood with each use to prevent abuse. This is pretty similar to what the OP is suggesting and is reasonable, I think.

Khobai, on 15 January 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

except the meta is completely dominated by laser vomit and erppc builds. its not low heat weapons dominating its the high heat weapons.

The Clans use lots of lasers because they don't take up many slots and because the Clan ACs aren't particularly good. If PGI would unlock the chassis options so that Clanners could free up slots, they would probably switch to other weapons. That's a design flaw and not a heat scale problem.

PPCs are a big deal right now because of the over-quirked TDR-9S. That's a quirk issue and not a heat scale problem.

Energy weapons in general are popular in CW right now because of their low tonnage/slot requirements and their lack of accompanying ammo. They're less risky, allowing for tougher and faster Mechs in exchange for higher heat curves (read: Greater risk of shut-down). This is a design flaw with CW and not a heat scale problem. I will add, that my observations in the other three game modes show a much more balanced representation of weapons on the field.

In short, the things you claim are heat scale problems are the result of ongoing experiments PGI is conducting, namely, Clan balance, IS Quirks, and CW. Adding in a complete overhaul of the heat system could well prove a breaking point for many players and for PGI as well. PGI can only focus on so many issues at once, after all. Why don't you wait until they fix the aforementioned three, before clamoring for something so colossal as a Heat Scale overhaul?

Also, if you recall, low heat weapons were dominating the meta for a while, so people griefed about it and got them nerfed. Now *SURPRISE!* high heat weapons are dominating the meta and griefers are calling for them to be nerfed. The funny thing about this, is that there will always be a meta. It's inevitable. So, instead of playing this circular game of "What will we nerf today?" How about we just accept that a certain weapon or weapon combo will be the meta and move on with our lives?

PPCs were meta and got nerfed by having min ranges implemented along with Ghost Heat.

Gauss Rifles became meta and got nerfed by having a charge up implemented.

LRMs became a kind of meta so their damage, screen shake, and flight speed were all nerfed.

ACs and ACs + PPCs were meta and got nerfed by ACs having their velocities and ranges nerfed.

PPCs + Gauss were meta which resulted in PPC velocities getting nerfed.

Gauss Rifles became meta on the D-Wolves, so their charge-up sequence was decoupled (read: Nerfed).

Surprise! All these previously meta weapons (most of which were low heat) have been nerfed because people complained about them! And now you want to break the heat mechanic completely and start the entire process over, this time with the added headache of only having a heat scale with 50% of the capacity as the one we currently possess?

Dude, you've got to stop eating the mushrooms.

[Khobai]

Quote

The Clans use lots of lasers because they don't take up many slots and because the Clan ACs aren't particularly good

clan uacs are fine if you can boat them. the daishi does well enough for example.

the problem is most clan mechs dont have a lot of spare tonnage and lasers yield the best damage per tonnage returns. but also the high heat capacity and lax ghost heat on CERMLs lets you boat them in absurd quantities. Really the ghost heat limit on CERMLs should be 4, not 6.

Since the IS ML is capped at 6 (30 damage) it makes sense to cap the CERML at 4 (28 damage). Thats definitely a change I think would improve the game and force clans to diversify their weapons more. And also possibly link CERML/CLPL/CERLL for ghost heat, since those weapons are all commonly used together.

Edited by Khobai, 15 January 2015 - 04:06 PM.

[GreyNovember]

I'm with nightmare on this.

The initial proposal of creating scaling heat that slows you down as you go up the scale, while it sounds nice on paper, would mean that a brawler Atlas who runs hot in the middle of a fight suddenly loses the ability to torso twist and protect himself.

The Nova would be even worse off than it already is.

[Nightmare1]

Khobai, on 15 January 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

clan uacs are fine if you can boat them. the daishi does well enough for example.

the problem is most clan mechs dont have a lot of spare tonnage and lasers yield the best damage per tonnage returns. but also the high heat capacity and lax ghost heat on CERMLs lets you boat them in absurd quantities. Really the ghost heat limit on CERMLs should be 4, not 6.

Since the IS ML is capped at 6 (30 damage) it makes sense to cap the CERML at 4 (28 damage). Thats definitely a change I think would improve the game and force clans to diversify their weapons more. And also possibly link CERML/CLPL/CERLL for ghost heat, since those weapons are all commonly used together.

This is more to my liking!

We're at the stage where systems need fine tuning like what you suggested. While I disagree with part of the proposal (linking CERMLs with both CLPLs and CERLLs), I do like the notion of altering the Clan Ghost Heat to encourage different weapon usage. I think that revisiting Mech quirks and tweaking weapons stats and Ghost Heat is the way to finish balancing.

That being said, PGI has promised to quirk the Clans after they finish with the IS, so there may be some interesting changes in store to counter the boating we've been discussing and to make poor chassis like the Nova more playable.

Nice post! +1

[Lily from animove]

Khobai, on 15 January 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

clan uacs are fine if you can boat them. the daishi does well enough for example.

the problem is most clan mechs dont have a lot of spare tonnage and lasers yield the best damage per tonnage returns. but also the high heat capacity and lax ghost heat on CERMLs lets you boat them in absurd quantities. Really the ghost heat limit on CERMLs should be 4, not 6.

Since the IS ML is capped at 6 (30 damage) it makes sense to cap the CERML at 4 (28 damage). Thats definitely a change I think would improve the game and force clans to diversify their weapons more. And also possibly link CERML/CLPL/CERLL for ghost heat, since those weapons are all commonly used together.

No that does not make sense, because your IS medium lasers fire more often and consume less heat. biased logic is biased, I can also come and say: hmm IS lasers is 1,25 dmg per heat, now make the CERML 7,5 dmg.
or the other way around make the CERML only have 5.8 heat Also biased logic and not the correct way to judge things, especially not in view of the great picture across all chassis:

It would not diversify the weapons used on clanners, because the usual Laservomit build like the TBR is exactly 4 CERML + 2 LPL. so you change not even the most meta mech of the game, while already inferior bad mechs, like the Nova are again those who suffer. the 8 CERML Direwolf does not care he just fires in 2 volleys, as it has done before, because suprise surprise it has exacly those 4 CERML in both arms.

this is unfortunately very much the way PGI nerfs atm, they take the mech that is an issue, nerf it and do not check which mechs get the giant nerf bat over the top. making the intentionally nerfed mechs still being those staying superior. the only true solution is reducing the heatreshold, because then this is an equal ressource all mechs can use and only the cooling will decide how much ressource you generate.

Nightmare1, on 15 January 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

I think I understand what you are saying. By consistently running at 101%, you are taking damage, yes?

by test i would say the following:

Shutdown + heat above 105% = low damage
Shutdown + heat below 105% = no damage
Override + heat above 100% = significant damage.

Edited by Lily from animove, 16 January 2015 - 04:13 AM.

[happy mech]

Nightmare1, on 15 January 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

PPCs were meta and got nerfed by having min ranges implemented along with Ghost Heat.

Gauss Rifles became meta and got nerfed by having a charge up implemented.

LRMs became a kind of meta so their damage, screen shake, and flight speed were all nerfed.

ACs and ACs + PPCs were meta and got nerfed by ACs having their velocities and ranges nerfed.

PPCs + Gauss were meta which resulted in PPC velocities getting nerfed.

Gauss Rifles became meta on the D-Wolves, so their charge-up sequence was decoupled (read: Nerfed).

Surprise! All these previously meta weapons (most of which were low heat) have been nerfed because people complained about them! And now you want to break the heat mechanic completely and start the entire process over, this time with the added headache of only having a heat scale with 50% of the capacity as the one we currently possess?

you do not design a perfect system right off, it is all about iteration
ghost heat is effectively cutting the heat cap too, you can only fire 4 ppc alpha before you overheat (and have 100% movement penalty), or fire 6 ppcs with some time between them (example)
setting the heat cap to 50% with penalties over it (rather than shutting down right away) is not starting all over, it may be a step to remove ghost heat

Eonai, on 15 January 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

I'm with nightmare on this.

The initial proposal of creating scaling heat that slows you down as you go up the scale, while it sounds nice on paper, would mean that a brawler Atlas who runs hot in the middle of a fight suddenly loses the ability to torso twist and protect himself.

The Nova would be even worse off than it already is.

currently if you run hot you shut down entirely in stead of slowing down, but it affects all mechs on the battlefield, not just the atlas or nova
problem of nova is ghost heat

Lily from animove, on 16 January 2015 - 03:23 AM, said:

this is unfortunately very much the way PGI nerfs atm, they take the mehc that si an issue, nerf it and do not check which mechs get the giant nerf bat over the top. making the intentionally nerfed mechs still being those staying superior. the only true solution is reducing the heatreshold, because then this is an equal ressource all mechs can use and only the cooling will decide how much ressource you generate.

exactly!

[Nightmare1]

Lily from animove, on 16 January 2015 - 03:23 AM, said:

by test i would say the following:

Shutdown + heat above 105% = low damage
Shutdown + heat below 105% = no damage
Override + heat above 100% = significant damage.

Okay, I see now and generally agree with you. However, it is possible to complete the third statement without accruing any damage; I've done it. If you use your override sparingly, and stay within that 5% overage you highlighted, you can keep moving without accruing damage. However, it is fickle and the more you try it, the greater the chance of incurring damage will be.

happy mech, on 16 January 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

you do not design a perfect system right off, it is all about iteration

Of course. We are nearing the end of a three year succession of iterations. Since IGP and PGI parted ways, the Mech and weapon tweaks have become simply that; tweaks. This prevents massive over or under buffing/nerfing. You still get outliers, like the TDR-9S, but that is easily solved without the need to start from scratch. Frankly, I'd rather not endure another three years of balancing when we are so close to being done now.

happy mech, on 16 January 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

ghost heat is effectively cutting the heat cap too, you can only fire 4 ppc alpha before you overheat (and have 100% movement penalty), or fire 6 ppcs with some time between them (example)

Ghost Heat balances specific weapons, not by cutting the heat cap, but by penalizing pilots for firing too many of them at once or in too short a time frame (sounds like a fix to your problem right there!). In essence, firing four PPCs does not lower your heat cap; it boosts your heat generation. It may seem like the same thing to you, but it is not. Firing your four PPCs in stagger fire will prevent the increased heat generation. If Ghost Heat lowered the cap, then it would not matter if you chain fired or Alpha'd with those PPCs.

happy mech, on 16 January 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

setting the heat cap to 50% with penalties over it (rather than shutting down right away) is not starting all over, it may be a step to remove ghost heat

That is exactly the wrong mentality. It is a start over because you are scrapping the entire heat system and implementing a new one. The new penalties must be coded. The new system has to be tested. In the end, you see Lights vanish because of these Draconian movement penalties, so then PGI must come back and over quirk them with heat dissipation and movement bonuses in an attempt to bring them back onto the field. Similar things can be said for many of the Mediums. The Assaults will become the most popular Mech chassis. The weapons of choice will be SLs, SPLs, MGs, and Gauss. Anything else is either too underpowered for the tonnage and slots, or too hot when boated. AC/20s have a nasty heat spike even without Ghost Heat; they'll disappear. In short, your system will wreck the game.

That means PGI will have to revisit every single individual weapon and try to balance it to fit inside a heat scale half the size of the old one. Simply removing Ghost Heat will not allow for this; a full overhaul would be required. In short, your suggestion is a veritable Pandora's Box of headache for everyone involved in this game.

It amazes me that you cannot see this.

happy mech, on 16 January 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

currently if you run hot you shut down entirely in stead of slowing down, but it affects all mechs on the battlefield, not just the atlas or nova
problem of nova is ghost heat

Yes, the shutdown is applied fairly and evenly across the board. It is up to pilot skill in designing his/her Mechs and skill in combat to ensure that the pilot does not overheat and shutdown. This is a fine mechanic. Under performing Mechs can receive some quirks to make them more competitive. This has already proven to be successful and has brought many dead chassis back into matches.

Yes, the Nova has issues with Ghost Heat and with the high heat in general that Clan lasers generate. However, when PGI does the Clan Quirk Pass, I am confident that this will be addressed.

Be patient and give PGI a chance to fully implement the Quirk System and get CW rolling before clamoring for a complete restart of one of the game's most basic and fundamental pillars.

[Lily from animove]

Nightmare1, on 16 January 2015 - 06:47 AM, said:

Okay, I see now and generally agree with you. However, it is possible to complete the third statement without accruing any damage; I've done it. If you use your override sparingly, and stay within that 5% overage you highlighted, you can keep moving without accruing damage. However, it is fickle and the more you try it, the greater the chance of incurring damage will be.





Of course. We are nearing the end of a three year succession of iterations. Since IGP and PGI parted ways, the Mech and weapon tweaks have become simply that; tweaks. This prevents massive over or under buffing/nerfing. You still get outliers, like the TDR-9S, but that is easily solved without the need to start from scratch. Frankly, I'd rather not endure another three years of balancing when we are so close to being done now.



Ghost Heat balances specific weapons, not by cutting the heat cap, but by penalizing pilots for firing too many of them at once or in too short a time frame (sounds like a fix to your problem right there!). In essence, firing four PPCs does not lower your heat cap; it boosts your heat generation. It may seem like the same thing to you, but it is not. Firing your four PPCs in stagger fire will prevent the increased heat generation. If Ghost Heat lowered the cap, then it would not matter if you chain fired or Alpha'd with those PPCs.



That is exactly the wrong mentality. It is a start over because you are scrapping the entire heat system and implementing a new one. The new penalties must be coded. The new system has to be tested. In the end, you see Lights vanish because of these Draconian movement penalties, so then PGI must come back and over quirk them with heat dissipation and movement bonuses in an attempt to bring them back onto the field. Similar things can be said for many of the Mediums. The Assaults will become the most popular Mech chassis. The weapons of choice will be SLs, SPLs, MGs, and Gauss. Anything else is either too underpowered for the tonnage and slots, or too hot when boated. AC/20s have a nasty heat spike even without Ghost Heat; they'll disappear. In short, your system will wreck the game.

That means PGI will have to revisit every single individual weapon and try to balance it to fit inside a heat scale half the size of the old one. Simply removing Ghost Heat will not allow for this; a full overhaul would be required. In short, your suggestion is a veritable Pandora's Box of headache for everyone involved in this game.

It amazes me that you cannot see this.



Yes, the shutdown is applied fairly and evenly across the board. It is up to pilot skill in designing his/her Mechs and skill in combat to ensure that the pilot does not overheat and shutdown. This is a fine mechanic. Under performing Mechs can receive some quirks to make them more competitive. This has already proven to be successful and has brought many dead chassis back into matches.

Yes, the Nova has issues with Ghost Heat and with the high heat in general that Clan lasers generate. However, when PGI does the Clan Quirk Pass, I am confident that this will be addressed.

Be patient and give PGI a chance to fully implement the Quirk System and get CW rolling before clamoring for a complete restart of one of the game's most basic and fundamental pillars.

Why has nova issues with ghostheat? it does only if you fire your weapons wrong, the cooling the nova has is anyways way too low to sustain all lasers at fire and by this there is no need to fire more lasers than ghostheat allows. so even the prime config makes 6x peeeew, 6x peeeeeew. and you ar ecapped. all this happens within maybe 2 seconds. yes you can't fire tham all at once, but that would be over the top.

[happy mech]

Lily from animove, on 16 January 2015 - 06:55 AM, said:

Why has nova issues with ghostheat? it does only if you fire your weapons wrong, the cooling the nova has is anyways way too low to sustain all lasers at fire and by this there is no need to fire more lasers than ghostheat allows. so even the prime config makes 6x peeeew, 6x peeeeeew. and you ar ecapped. all this happens within maybe 2 seconds. yes you can't fire tham all at once, but that would be over the top.

if you chainfire any combination of sl, spl, ml, mpl in two or more weapon groups, you are screwed, for example chainfire each arm, or chainfire mls with a burst of sl group

[Khobai]

Quote

because your IS medium lasers fire more often and consume less heat

i disagree with that.

CERML are used far more often because of their range.

[Nightmare1]

Lily from animove, on 16 January 2015 - 06:55 AM, said:

Why has nova issues with ghostheat? it does only if you fire your weapons wrong, the cooling the nova has is anyways way too low to sustain all lasers at fire and by this there is no need to fire more lasers than ghostheat allows. so even the prime config makes 6x peeeew, 6x peeeeeew. and you ar ecapped. all this happens within maybe 2 seconds. yes you can't fire tham all at once, but that would be over the top.

I just let the Nova Ghost Heat thing slide because it wasn't worth debating with the happy mech guy.

You are right though; the Novas have an issue with heat in general; not just Ghost Heat. And you are also right that you can avoid Ghost Heat in a Nova by firing your weapons correctly. It just wasn't worth it, to me, to get into that in my discussion with the other poster.

happy mech, on 16 January 2015 - 07:33 AM, said:

if you chainfire any combination of sl, spl, ml, mpl in two or more weapon groups, you are screwed, for example chainfire each arm, or chainfire mls with a burst of sl group

SLs and SPLs don't have a Ghost Heat modifier.

You are not necessarily in trouble either. You simply have to maintain firing discipline. If you just hold down the chainfire trigger, then yes, your heat will build and some weapons (AC/2s come to mind) will cue Ghost Heat. However, it's all manageable if you are on top of your game.

By the way, such a comment from you doesn't exactly help your case for halving the heat scale. Rather, it reinforces my position that halving it will be a bad thing. You say that chainfiring right now dooms you. I say not necessarily so, but that if you add in an 85% movement penalty, then it definitely will!

[Lily from animove]

Nightmare1, on 16 January 2015 - 06:47 AM, said:

Okay, I see now and generally agree with you. However, it is possible to complete the third statement without accruing any damage; I've done it. If you use your override sparingly, and stay within that 5% overage you highlighted, you can keep moving without accruing damage. However, it is fickle and the more you try it, the greater the chance of incurring damage will be.

tested again, any kind of above 100% heat will cause dmg when overriding. It is just ver very low, the best way to see this is doing this on testign ground because then you can see the 100% of your mech going to 99% so the damage is there, just low, so when you have enough heatsinks to quickly return below 100% the damage is not much to be noticebale in the heat of a battle.