62 replies to this topic

[JadeTimberwolf]

There is currently a thread suggesting the introduction of IIc versions of Mechs. I happen to agree with the idea, however I believe that along with the introduction of IIc versions that it would only be fair to introduce the Reseen models that have not yet been introduced to go along side the ones we have already (Locust, Griffen, Shadow Hawk, Wolverine, Thunderbolt, and Battlemaster) that is 7 out of 22 IS Mechs, yes a number of those have IIc versions as well. I feel that utilizing these designs we can increase the variety of Mechs we see in both Standard and Community Warfare.

The question is, do we want to see these Mechs introduced yes or no?

[TyGeR STD]

More is always better. I do not think anyone will say no to more Mechs.

[InspectorG]

Not gonna happen unless Harmony $old goes out of business.

Non-Macross mechs, sure.

[JadeTimberwolf]

InspectorG, on 12 January 2015 - 03:32 PM, said:

Not gonna happen unless Harmony $old goes out of business.

Non-Macross mechs, sure.

The Reseen models are not in contention with Harmony Gold just the Unseen models, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing the Locust, Griffen, Shadow Hawk, Wolverine, Thunderbolt, or the Battlemaster in the game right now.

[SpiralFace]

Doesn't matter.

They can still be argued as being Derivative work. As they would still have their roots based on the original artwork. And their designs / inclusion into the game universe was based solely on intellectual property that is not currently theirs to use.

Sure its something that can be argued in court, and sure, I'm sure you can probably win if you saw it all the way through to a judgement.

But Harmony Gold is a KNOWN trademark bully that has stifled the ability of anyone to import ANY form of macross derivative into western territories despite them only having the distribution rights to the original series.

It doesn't matter if you are on the winning side or not. HG WILL take PGI to court if they try to release the macross derivative mechs. (They already threatened them when PGI put out a warhammer in their original teaser trailer.) So sure, they might be in the right of it, but at the end of the day, your going to sink hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight them on that notion through both the standard courts and the appeals courts even if you do win.

So as much as everyone would LOVE to see this happen, it does not, nor will it ever matter. As long as HG can throw it under the Derivitave work bus and be more then willing to press legal charges on that ground because of it, Your looking at a 100k lawsuit fight with them to push something that is far from a sure thing. (Judges can always find a judgement against them.)

So unless you think that the unseens would be able to survive a full legal trial, and still produce enough revenue to both justify their development as well as defend their rights to use it in court with the FULL knowledge that if a judgement goes against PGI, they would more then likely have to strip them from the game (and your accounts) and be probably forced to pay HG the money they made, then it is and always will be just easier to leave those designs in the past and move on then fight a LONG legal fight on something you might very well loose with a known trademark bully that WILL fight you over this.

Edited by SpiralFace, 12 January 2015 - 03:57 PM.

[JadeTimberwolf]

SpiralFace, HG couldn't touch FASA regarding the Reseens even with the even with the Derivative Work clause, therefore they have no standing to touch PGI for them either just like they can't touch Catalyst nor Iron Wind Metals for the Reseen designs that they print and produce. The only thing HG can touch is the Unseen models and I am not suggesting using those because as nice as it would be I would prefer to keep HG far away from the things I love.

In synapse:
Unseen = Harmony Gold bullies everyone
Reseen = Harmony Gold can't touch even under Derivative Work Clause

[SpiralFace]

JadeTimberwolf, on 12 January 2015 - 05:16 PM, said:

SpiralFace, HG couldn't touch FASA regarding the Reseens even with the even with the Derivative Work clause, therefore they have no standing to touch PGI for them either just like they can't touch Catalyst nor Iron Wind Metals for the Reseen designs that they print and produce. The only thing HG can touch is the Unseen models and I am not suggesting using those because as nice as it would be I would prefer to keep HG far away from the things I love.

In synapse:
Unseen = Harmony Gold bullies everyone
Reseen = Harmony Gold can't touch even under Derivative Work Clause

Actually they did. They took them to court in the 90's about it, and FASA settled with them to get the current state that the Catalyst games lab guys now enjoy. (No one knows the details of this agreement, but the guys that make the game have a "working understanding" of what they can and can't do with it.)

That agreement did not include "fasa interactive" the fasa digital division spin off that would later be absorbed into Microsoft games. Between the FASA interactive license not being a part of the out of court settlement between FASA proper and HG (As FASA interactive was its own independently owned company that simply handled the digital FASA licenses,) and the possible terms for FASA's settlement with HG could have included relinquished rights to the designs in anything BUT the pen and paper system, there is plenty of difference between what HG and Catalyst do with the property vs. what PGI could legally do with the property.

And again, even if they had a legal right to it, HG is still a big enough bully to argue the point in court. Something they have already proved they are MORE then willing to do on this matter.

So in the end, you could be right, and PGI has a legal right to them as a far enough off shoot of derivitave work just like the Catalyst guys do.

But just like FASA before the, they are going to have to defend that right in court if they really want to pressue that matter. As HG isn't going to back down from that fight, even if they are well within their rights to use different art.

And as long as HG continues to be an IP troll with their license and bully anyone who even remotely trys to get around it, this issue is never going to go away unless you are willing to shell out the money to fight them in court about it.

[Void2258]

Actually despite the fact that HG continues to this day to go after everyone, a Japanese court ruled a few years ago that they DO NOT AND NEVER DID hold the necessary rights to have standing for anything they have ever sued about related to Macross. The rights HG has are strictly distribution of video works; they do not and have never had the intellectual property rights they have claimed. The only people they have standing to go after are bootleggers; they do not have rights for images, toys, derivative works or anything other than the specific programs themselves. The intellectual property rights rest solely with the original studio that created Macross (that studio licensed the distribution rights only, not the IP, to a second company who in turn licensed it to HG in the US); FASA originally licensed the images from the creators in the first place, so they had the rights properly secured the whole time. This entire decade long odyssey of crap from HG has been completely false, propped up only by the fact that no one has ever actually gotten to trial with them in America because of how stupidly expensive it is to fight for your rights in court here.

[JadeTimberwolf]

That lawsuit which was dropped and then settled out of court was concerning the UNSEEN MODELS not the RESEEN MODELS, and my suggesting is in regards to the RESEEN which HG has no capabilities to claim anything with as they couldn't do it when FASA released the RESEEN versions. To go further on why they can't touch the Derivative Work here is something out of the link you provided when you posted about it.

Quote

Derivatives and their authors benefit in turn from the full protection of copyright without prejudicing the rights of the original work's author.

To further extrapolate US Copyright Law in Derivative Works which encompasses Harmony Gold a US based company explicitly protects derivatives.

Edited by JadeTimberwolf, 12 January 2015 - 09:25 PM.

[Tesunie]

http://www.sarna.net...i/Unseen#Reseen

[IraqiWalker]

JadeTimberwolf, on 12 January 2015 - 09:23 PM, said:

That lawsuit which was dropped and then settled out of court was concerning the UNSEEN MODELS not the RESEEN MODELS, and my suggesting is in regards to the RESEEN which HG has no capabilities to claim anything with as they couldn't do it when FASA released the RESEEN versions. To go further on why they can't touch the Derivative Work here is something out of the link you provided when you posted about it.

To further extrapolate US Copyright Law in Derivative Works which encompasses Harmony Gold a US based company explicitly protects derivatives.

Are you familiar with Games Workshop's Pauldrons lawsuit?

1d4Chan summary

The problem is that the reseen models in some cases were still too close to the original unseen art, that even when you can say "oh that's the reseen model" HG can still sue you and force you to try and prove that it is in fact the reseen model. Not to mention that plenty of the reseen models are absolutely ugly in too many ways, and would just cause rage.

Maurauder new concept art in spoiler. Please tell me which of these 5 models would qualify as a re-seen that isn't similar to the original.

Spoiler

Second to last is Odanan's entry to a Marauder design thread, and not official PGI concept art

I can tell you right now, with my limited legal knowledge that HG can still file a case on ANY one of those redesigns. The problem isn't that PGI can win, it's that it could financially break them to win. That's what HG has been doing all these years. They can lose all the cases in the world. It's just that no one can throw THAT much money to fight them back.

Also, compare the above, to the actual re-seen design:

Spoiler

[Karl Streiger]

The ShimmeringWord - AnthonyScroggins - version of the Marauder is official too:

[Duke Hector]

ok this stuff has been beaten to death SO MUCH its not even funny the devs said in ask the devs Video #1 that right now they are NOT doing anymore unseen/reseen mechs so all i have to say right now at this point in time


BE THANKFUL!

you have your jenner/locust/shadowhawk/thunderbolt/battlemaster

because of the time being thats all your going to get so stop asking and beating a dead horse

Edited by Dan the Ice Man, 13 January 2015 - 02:26 AM.

[SpiralFace]

JadeTimberwolf, on 12 January 2015 - 09:23 PM, said:

That lawsuit which was dropped and then settled out of court was concerning the UNSEEN MODELS not the RESEEN MODELS, and my suggesting is in regards to the RESEEN which HG has no capabilities to claim anything with as they couldn't do it when FASA released the RESEEN versions. To go further on why they can't touch the Derivative Work here is something out of the link you provided when you posted about it.

[/font]

To further extrapolate US Copyright Law in Derivative Works which encompasses Harmony Gold a US based company explicitly protects derivatives.

And again, that doesn't matter.

You can say Reseen all you want, but as the Reseen have a direct succession line that directly goes back to the original models, HG can sue on the notion that they are derivative work of works from an IP that they hold the western rights to soley because those images in of themselves are derivitave of the images that came before.

Now that is totally different from them WINNING that suit. As I've said multiple times, I have no doubt that if you where to actually fight this through in court and then fight it through again through the appeals court, you will eventually end up on top in the same way that the GW lawsuit against Chapter house studios. But you have to be prepared / financially able to see that fight all the way through.

And that is ultimately what kills any feasibility of the unseens or reseens ever coming out.

As long as HG acts as an IP troll and forces a company into court to fight over the idea, your looking at hundereds of thousands of dollars in legal expenses fighting a company all the way through the court system to get a verdict that might not even be in your favor. (Despite them probably having a strong case to publish the unseens if they did go through that fight.)

Catalyst and the BG guys have come to an understanding with HG, and have gotten to a state where they have been able to move on in peace, but that does not extend to everyone. As HG has shown a WILLINGNESS to take anyone else to court regarding this issue including PGI.

So if your willing to see hundereds of thousands of legal dollars go into legal expenses for a few lawyers fighting HG over a few mechs then see those funds rolled into the development of the game itself, then argue for that over any further development of the game, given that its going to be a long drawn out Court fight thanks to HG's willingness to make it such.

It doesn't matter if they are in the right or not, as long as HG is WILLING to fight them in court over it (which they seem more then happy to do by already threatening legal action against PGI,) then any prospect of using those mechs is cost detrimental to the rest of the development in the game. Especially when there are already hundreds of other mechs in the game that they can use without any form of legal issues the unseens / reseens bring to the table.

[VinJade]

instead of the reseens lets have more from the old days such as the chameleon, Crab, & Thug.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

I dont get. Why not just pay them.

[IraqiWalker]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 13 January 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

I dont get. Why not just pay them.

They either ask for exorbitant prices, or just never release the license. They are literally just sitting on it, doing nothing with it.

[Iqfish]

TyGeR STD, on 12 January 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

More is always better. I do not think anyone will say no to more Mechs.

I will. I will vote more maps, flashy hangars or AI tanks all day over another chassis

[AdamBaines]

I want them, but it wont happen.

[Spare Parts Bin]

AdamBaines, on 13 January 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

I want them, but it wont happen.

We will see.