92 replies to this topic

[StompingOnTanks]

I'm not trying to start a rant or rage thread, but I would actually like to see how many people agree with me on this, or if not, why.

For the record: I am not a raging insane feminist who views every slightly sexualized or unrealistic female character in media as an attack on womenkind. Nor do I claim to be a glowing white knight of sexual morality and righteousness.

However, one thing I have observed is that most members of the MWO forums (or at least, this section of it) tend to be mature and reasonable people who you can have an in-depth conversation with without erupting into flame wars. Therefore, I post you this:

Do you believe that women in video games, especially MMOs, are overly sexualized just for the purpose of advertisement and/or pleasing the male audience?

I personally think this is the case with many, but not all games. It's common knowledge that sex sells. It's also common knowledge that a very large percentage of gamers are men, especially in games that involve lots shooting, sword fighting, monster slaying, and so on.

So naturally, what many game developers will do is use a particularly attractive female character in their game in their ads. I don't really see a huge problem with this. After all, it's seen in practically every other form of media, from music to books to movies, and it certainly isn't going away. FFS, it's even in BattleTech a bit. But that's not the real problem I see here.

The real problem, I think, is when female characters in games start looking like this.

Spoiler

These are just two examples, but the sad reality is I could keep going on, and on, and on with images like this if I wanted to. These are actual playable characters in their respective games.

Now, I can understand the appeal of sexy female characters. I really do. I mean, I'm a dude, and I'm certainly not going to complain about sexy women in games. But if your character looks more like a ****** than a trained warrior or elite soldier, in a game that is supposed to be about trained warriors and elite soldiers, there is a serious problem going on.

Women with curvy bodies in games are fine with me, but damn, if you're supposed to be a sword wielding badass and more than 75% of your body mass is fully exposed and completely stab-able, it just ruins the immersion. Not only that, but it's insulting to me as a male, because the idea that I need constant T&A on my screen to enjoy a game makes me feel more than a bit degraded.

I'm sure that many of the women who enjoy playing these sorts of games feel even worse, because in many cases the only clothing/armor/costume options in these games involve having legs, arms, and stomach exposed, with your more-than-likely overly huge boobs and ass hanging out of whatever article of clothing is barely covering them.

By no means do I think sexy women should be omitted from games as a whole. It depends entirely on the setting and art style of the game, and on the choices that both players and game developers choose to make. But what I'd like to see is female characters who actually look respectable, or at least dressed for their job and environment in a way that's believable.

Spoiler

Covered up? Yeah. Still attractive? F**k yes.

So we really don't need all this mostly-naked female warrior bullsh*t. If you want to have revealing outfits or completely over the top boobs, limit it to a certain few characters or an armor class. It's just so much better that way. It makes the girl gamers feel more welcome, it doesn't try to take advantage of my hormones, it doesn't distract me when I'm trying to blow somebody's head off with a Barrett .50cal and it makes the devs look like decent, realistic people.

So that's what I think.

But what I really want to know is what do you all think?

[Mr Blonde]

You can go as far back as you like, Tomb Raider, Xena, Conan the Barbarian, Barbarella, any movie with warrior women you like. It's not only games, it's all media, and it is to suck in the male crowd for the reasons you discussed. We can only comfort ourselves that those chicks, while over-exposed, are at least more mobile than the guys in armor and stuff. Chun-Li and Sonja Blade did fine! I was concerned for the safety of Female Skyrim characters though, they had to be pretty darn cold in those outfits.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Yeah, a lot of that stuff is over the top for female characters.

I personally tend to lose interest in playing or simply tune out games and most movies that have that type of stuff.

Thinking about it now, I guess that's one of the many reasons why I still like FO:NV as much as I do, since the base game has armor and clothing that feel real enough to their setting. Where, it's with mods where players can go off the deep end with their changes and those mods are easy to avoid.

[Hex Pallett]

Look, objectification of women ain't nothing new. Damsel in distress was a thing way before videogame was a thing.

That doesn't mean videogame industry is not realizing it and trying to stir away. One of the latest "trends" of desexualizing women, is to use little girls instead. Tiny Tina from Borderlands. Clementine from The Walking Dead. Ellie from The Last of Us. Using little girls removes the sexualization/objectification of women (except for...a special...few...maybe ) without cutting off the chivalry part; or simply because fatherly instinct is something very relatable for many gamers who are fathers/mothers themselves.

That doesn't exclude the emergence of not-sexualized women either. Tess from the last of us was full-Spartan in the beginning. Wolfenstein: The New Order has two major female characters: Caroline, a skinny woman in her 50s with a giant tattoo oh her chest who's paralyzed and "sh*ts in a bag", as I quote herself, is the leader of resistance; Anya appears to be the typical "damsel in distress" figure in the beginning, until half way through the story her background is revealed, which completely throws the image out of the window. Faridah Malik from Deus Ex: Human Revolution had about 15 minutes total screen time, but she has a proper back story, and if you follow the plot there's this subtle emotional development between her and Adam Jensen, and I LOVED it.

So, let there be women in videogames with boobs so big they'd stay buoyant in water, as long as they're not the only ones. Besides, it's not like there aren't other medias objectifying men, right? *cough* Twilight *cough*

EDIT: btw, go play Wolfenstein The New Order. That game is PERFECT.

Edited by Helmstif, 12 January 2015 - 05:58 PM.

[Tesunie]

As a Graphic Designer (by degree only), I'd have to say I am so SICK of "sex sells". It gets old and boring fast.

I agree with the OP. Tanks, you hit the nail on the head here.

[Tesunie]

Marack Drock, on 12 January 2015 - 06:22 PM, said:

You too!? I did graphic design for a while....... quit cause of "sex sells". Like I said my tolerance is not very high for it and drawing/designing it only makes me pissed 100x faster.

I have the degree, but can't get a job for it because "you need 3-5 years of experience, schooling doesn't count".

I'd flat out tell them that there are far better ways to sell a product than by advertising "sex" stuff. I'd probably lose my job because I'd refuse to do it do to my own moral reasons. I don't mind women/girls in designs, but there is an extent when it becomes "sexual" and disrespectful. I hold other people with too much respect to advertise in such a trashy manner.

[Tesunie]

Marack Drock, on 12 January 2015 - 06:37 PM, said:

I did it for minor mobile games and stuff nothing of any relevance but they wanted me because I had won art awards in my state. I refused to do any work on those that wanted anything that damn disrespectful.

I won some awards for my Designs (from the Gutonburge contest, which involved students from several countries even). Where's my job!

All things aside, there has to be some retention of respect. Those images are portraying human beings (real or otherwise). Humans (real or otherwise) deserve some moderation of respect.

[RazarG]

They are fictional characters, whats wrong with objectifying a drawing you have just made up from your own mind?
They are not women, they are fictional characters

If i was creator of said half naked female character, i would argue that she has her own personality, and enjoys being half naked. Fancy dresses just get in the way of her awesome fictional combat. On top of that, she like her male audience oggling her.

The problem we should be talking about, is how real life pop stars are half naked in every "music" video. These REAL LIFE women get exploited by their record companies cause sex sells. Their REAL LIFE bodies are being used to turn a profit. Who gives a shite about a made up character wearing made up revealing clothes.

[Tesunie]

Marack Drock, on 12 January 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

I completely agree with you. Displaying them in this manner is disrespectful to the Character/Person and not only that but to the Human Race in general. What does it say about us? It just makes me pissed beyond reason.

Just remember, the only person whom you can be held accountable for their actions is only yourself. You can't control what other people are going to do, so only do what you can do yourself. (Works also in PUG matches... Actually, any multi-player game.)

[Popper100]

I would like to make sure there is a level headed conversation going on here. Keep in mind that scantily clad and objectified women are too separate entities entirely. This is not Puritan Christianity that character design conforms to, and the notion that a female character can not be scantily clad and also strong and motivated is a travesty.

Someone used Tomb Raider as an example of exploitive media. Excuse me? A well endowed, booty short wearing Indiana Jones expy that faces down tigers and fruggin T-Rexes with pistols, has a cohesive plot line in the prime three games in the series and a male counterpart that she surpasses in the first game is exploitive? That is rather... broad a picture you are painting. Then what about Nariko from Heavenly Sword? She has even less on, is gocked at in-game and seen as a sex icon throughout the in-game universe, yet her plot line is a noble and tragic one and her capability is not snuffed out for any male counterpart to come and rescue her. Indeed, it is a female companion doing such.

Just keep this in mind, sometimes the level of physical sexualization is simply a part of the character design and not the entire character design. You can have the gambit from Fetch in Infamous First Light, who had no sexualization and was a street rat to Cortana, who essentially got "upgraded" as the series went on for no particular reason, and still have a fully formed, intelligent, and goal oriented character. I for one want to see how Quiet is done in MGS 5 since she is one of the hot buttons for the games pre-release media.

TLDR; Clothing doesn't make a woman an object, her character and status in relation to others does.

Edited by Popper100, 12 January 2015 - 07:33 PM.

[Tesunie]

Popper100, on 12 January 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

TLDR; Clothing doesn't make a woman an object, her character and status in relation to others does.

We are also talking about proper clothing for proper situations. Going out into battle as a "mighty female warrior", but being the only "soldier" on the field wearing nothing but a metal bra and a string of, is that coins, for a bakini as their armor... It's unrealistic and placed only to emphasis her sexual characteristics and not her "powerful" warrior nature.

Tomb Raider (typically, but I haven't played any of those games really, besides maybe in passing) probably isn't the best example. He's a rather strong character (maybe a little too "powerful", but it's movies for ya), and she typically wears rather practical clothing. She's not likely to get into a knife fight, and besides constricting movements any additional clothing wouldn't be effective if a bullet flies by her. She's got decent (from my limited recollection here) general adventure gear. basic and to the point. (And nothing is exactly hanging out either.)

I would like to point out the second example set:
it's a little "skimpy", but at the same time practical for her role, and decently covering. It's elegant and tasteful. I could actually see someone walking into public with this clothing.


There can be a bit of a fine line here, and even a lot of blur space. However, the sexualization (especially when they are portrayed or only in the story for sexual reasons) of a gender (typically women) is what we are talking about. Things that demoralize and make women seem more like items than people. (It's kinda hard to explain much farther...)

[Anjian]

Tesunie, on 12 January 2015 - 07:52 PM, said:

We are also talking about proper clothing for proper situations. Going out into battle as a "mighty female warrior", but being the only "soldier" on the field wearing nothing but a metal bra and a string of, is that coins, for a bakini as their armor... It's unrealistic and placed only to emphasis her sexual characteristics and not her "powerful" warrior nature.

Tomb Raider (typically, but I haven't played any of those games really, besides maybe in passing) probably isn't the best example. He's a rather strong character (maybe a little too "powerful", but it's movies for ya), and she typically wears rather practical clothing. She's not likely to get into a knife fight, and besides constricting movements any additional clothing wouldn't be effective if a bullet flies by her. She's got decent (from my limited recollection here) general adventure gear. basic and to the point. (And nothing is exactly hanging out either.)

I would like to point out the second example set:
it's a little "skimpy", but at the same time practical for her role, and decently covering. It's elegant and tasteful. I could actually see someone walking into public with this clothing.


There can be a bit of a fine line here, and even a lot of blur space. However, the sexualization (especially when they are portrayed or only in the story for sexual reasons) of a gender (typically women) is what we are talking about. Things that demoralize and make women seem more like items than people. (It's kinda hard to explain much farther...)

That looks like Age of Wulin or another of the Asian martial arts fantasy MMO.

Granted, the Age of Wulin (called Age of Wushu outside of China) has fantastic looking avatars, both men and women, probably one of the best out there along with Final Fantasy 14 A Realm Reborn, Vindictus, and Blade and Soul. But the game also has a dress code. Going naked and skimpy will shame the martial arts school you belong to, and this can result in advancement penalties. In order to rid yourself of the shame and restore honor to your school, your avatar must go to one of the temples inside the school and practice meditation for a certain length of time (yeah that cuts into your gaming time).

[Popper100]

Marack Drock, on 12 January 2015 - 08:12 PM, said:

Tell me though... what are people going to pay more attention to: the character's personality, or the fact that only 1 inch of fabric covers that woman's breasts...... well I think under any circumstance people will be to distracted by the boobs to be able to know anything about this character. Either they will be disgusted or just angered by the lack of modesty and disregard the creator's had for this character... or they will be entranced by the spherical orbs that keep bouncing every time she runs.

Here is what modesty entails- WHAT NORMAL PEOPLE WOULD WEAR! How many girls will only where a maximum of 6 inches of clothing across their entire body? How many are going to wear shorts that are so small they ride up into her buttocks? How many are going to wear a bra that is more revealing than a string bikini?

Also out of all the women in games the woman dressed like a she was dancing in a night club is 90% of the time the sensual one that is a carnivorous, unrealistic, degrading portrayal of a woman. Tesunie is right. That second example is at that line where it is still attractive and alluring but also practical and realistic to her character. Whereas boob drop, not hiding the vagina TES:V Mod is so unrealistic and degrading that it sickens me.

Also in non-Christian Norse society, Gothic Germany, Celtic England, Gaul France, and from the Middle Ages upwards exposing even within 40% of this much of your body was immodest to say the least. Even for men. You show your shirt your pants to short and that was considered immodest.

And as for clothing not making a woman an object well..... You are saying you want to see a sexualized character? Well that means you want them to do what you want... which means you are objectifying them by not taking what they want into account. Objectifying women is not only how she portrays herself its how other people portray them as well. 90 times out of 100 when a video game creates this poster girl with barely any clothing it is for what? MONEY meaning they use that character as a sexual object for cash. That instantly means their character persona has no baring. They just wanted her/him for cash grabs. Nothing more.

How would you feel if say you had a sister or wife that did that? Exposed their body for the pleasure of others to see to get money? Because that is what they do in video games, movies etc. That is what is happening. If the creator's wanted a character that is sexual but sensible they would have someone like the above not **** galore, and vagina flash.

What is acceptable to wear is entirely dictated by social circles. Night hawks and other club dwellers would probably balk at as much as 6 inches of cloth from top to bottom while the Amish communes would have a field day on anybody wearing shorts. It is all a matter of perspective. I'll tell you now though, women wear as little as they can get away with in everyday society in cities all over the US, so saying that normal people balk at the things in video games is a bit overreaching.

As for setting appropriate attire, I agree that it would be nicer to have the default looks leaning more toward sensible than flamboyant. And yet, there is the fact that flamboyant, exposed armoring could be a sign of defiance, any character stating that s/he needs nothing but their will and skill to defend themselves. There are some examples of wearing so little as a reminder of past wrongs, such as Jack from Mass Effect. How we display ourselves and portray these fantasy creations has a lot to do with our aspirations and struggles. Contrary to TV drama rules, people who make things you don't agree with don't do it out of sheer spite and greed.

On the subject of regional modesty rules, remember that the majority of interactive media comes from the US, parts of Europe, Russia, Japan, and Canada (sadly sometimes). Most of these areas are primarily Christian valued, liberal minded populations that have largely erased the divide between the sexes. This puts most of the onus onto the end user to see the virtues and vices of female characters. Yes, there are clearly games with buxom airheads as main characters or side characters. And of course the worst offender, window dressing characters. But it isn't the wall of gloom and doom that some people wish to make out. Discussion worthy? Absolutely. But not rant worthy.

(I leave out China because while they produce a prodigious amount of media, most of it never makes it here or is translated. They are a nominally conservative force in the industry and should be an interesting breath of fresh air in the years to come.)

[Lily from animove]

sexy chicks are sexy, yet what bothers me is that most of these anime style girls do not even look natural, and most have oversized boobs anyways. Sure we have all those games, but shouldn't that also mean some diversity?
Further it really annoys and sucks that the "warrior" or plate class runs around half naked in this game. This is just stupid. I mean, look at this amazing steel plate slip, max armor values. Much immersion at this point. or thise higheels, very combat suited gear LOL.

some games seem also to have a boobslider at character creation lasting from big to oversized. WOW much character creation.
I am really tired seeing all these games, this looks plain boring nowdays because loads of games look like this.
At leats the elder scrolls have not followed this stupid trend, The day I see this happening is where I gonna refuse buying it.
Yet Skyrim was already a bordelrine case, whyle all chars look more or less dirty skinwise as if they never saw any kind of water to clean themselves, everyone seems to be perfectly shaved, even in the armpits. I mean of course next to issues like starving or trying to come throgh your hard working day there is still always enough time and money to buy equipment to stay perfectly shaved. But this unfortunately doesn't leaves time for washing yourself anymore.

further more and funny, lets see fallout, so fans made a female power armor outfit:



So now I imaginary try to strip that girl, and wonder: wow, she must be so horrible thin, she may drop dead by undernourishment.

This trend is really annoying

@Marack, haha, yeha well, the naked mod for TES 3 was cool, Just beware that swimming naked with slaughterfishes can be dangerous for your little firend xD
But for skyrim I really did not modded stuff so far, there are too many weird mods. more "realistic" faces where every women has perfect makeup on top? WOW yeah because the peasants of Skyrim have time for that LOL.

ok, bakc in the days as our charactes were a few pixels in size makeup and pubic hair were never a topic by being visually not even makeable, yet when you make an RPG in a setting like skyrim a few things are ridiculously unimmersive by these.

It's also not only a sex sells for men thing, many women like this stuff as well. Women do like to be sexy, similar to men doing workouts to look sexy in the males way. It is just some old weird values over centuries who tried to educate women that sexuality is wrong. But these times have changed.
I guess the true issue is not only the sexualisation, its more the developers transforming our live and problems of nowdays into games of a different setup. And most of them seem to have not much sense for realism anymore. Or they just don't know it anymore because they spend too much time in front of the PC not knowing how Reallife looks like, hence even how it looked like 300 years ago or 500.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

You are over thinking the issue.

Sex sells, Simple as that.

Look at pit girls at race car events. There is no way in hell, under normal circumstances, we would be caught wearing the gear they have to wear while holding an umbrella over a racers head. But in order to sell products, attract attention or titilate the male audiences, we get the lycra clad look invading the screen.

I attract a woman, you use things that stimulate our minds, words, descriptions etc... for men, its more visual and simple. Example, 50 Shades of Grey works for us ladies like Penthouse does for you men.

In reality if I were a combatant I would have as much armour as a male, flattened boobs stuffed under atleast 2 sports bras so I could run pain free, hip pads to help me drop and slide as they stick out more, wrist braces for gun recoil help, hair short or in a bun up out of the way so it cant be pulled or get in my eyes or flap round and be a distraction, a hi neck top to stop hot rounds and dust and grit getting into cleavage and being an irritation and combat boots just like a mans so I could put the boot in same as you all.

Some things would ideally be modified to better fit, holsters lower down off the hip and onto the upper leg so I wouldn't be too wipe for tight spaces, curved chest plate armour and maybe shorter plates as my mid section isnt as long as a guys. Smaller helmet and smaller gun grips to fit my hands around but thats about it.

Not so flattering and apart from the more pronounced curve in my back and sloped shoulders, hard to tell apart from a small man. Not pretty but very practical.

Edited by Keira RAVEN McKenna, 13 January 2015 - 03:16 AM.

[Mr D One]

Not sure if you count MWO in this discussion.

The mechs are it's. Neither male or female.

You could argue some of the "bulgey" shapes of the battle mechs could be construed as a phallocentric and discharging weapons could be the equivalent of male orgasm. The design flaps on the front of the Kintaro look a bit like Labia Majora, a Centurion called Wang. etc etc

But this would just be a depraved twisted mind imprinting a fantasy onto a completely, imo, a game with no connotation of he or she.


Update - And point proven.....

http://mwomercs.com/...63#entry4095663

Great laugh though

Edited by Dar1ng One, 13 January 2015 - 03:32 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Dar1ng One, on 13 January 2015 - 03:28 AM, said:

Not sure if you count MWO in this discussion.

The mechs are it's. Neither male or female.

You could argue some of the "bulgey" shapes of the battle mechs could be construed as a phallocentric and discharging weapons could be the equivalent of male orgasm. The design flaps on the front of the Kintaro look a bit like Labia Majora, a Centurion called Wang. etc etc

But this would just be a depraved twisted mind imprinting a fantasy onto a completely, imo, a game with no connotation of he or she.


Update - And point proven.....

http://mwomercs.com/...63#entry4095663

Great laugh though

dat atlas is clearly male look at his giant crotch

but not sur eif its nor not, because that is english language, in germany we have he she and it, and most things are feame or male pronounced. Like a Door beign female by its article.

and further when a mech has a name like centurion, or atlas, I guess pronouncing it as a "he" is quite normal, because atlas was male like centurions were consisted of male soldiers as well. But then Stromcrows or such are maybe "its" in english,y et in germany we would use "she" - Die Stormcrow- because the crow (die Krähe) is with female article.

so its not only fantasized stuff or such, it sometimes just language.

yet this badge



totally looks like an long bearded armored side profile of a dwarf with a b*ner

[Mr D One]

Lily from animove, on 13 January 2015 - 03:53 AM, said:

dat atlas is clearly male look at his giant crotch

but not sur eif its nor not, because that is english language, in germany we have he she and it, and most things are feame or male pronounced. Like a Door beign female by its article.

and further when a mech has a name like centurion, or atlas, I guess pronouncing it as a "he" is quite normal, because atlas was male like centurions were consisted of male soldiers as well. But then Stromcrows or such are maybe "its" in english,y et in germany we would use "she" - Die Stormcrow- because the crow (die Krähe) is with female article.

so its not only fantasized stuff or such, it sometimes just language.

yet this badge



totally looks like an long bearded armored side profile of a dwarf with a b*ner

Good post Lily

5 stars * * * * *

Here is the badge title



Other working titles include....

"The Hard"

"Magic Blue Pill"

"Pump Master"

[Mycrus]

side.

boobs.

[Lily from animove]

Mycrus, on 13 January 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

side.

boobs.

as long as those outfits don't pretend to be heavy armored front line tanks there is nothing wrong with these outfits.