192 replies to this topic

[Molossian Dog]

Look, I don´t want to be mean, but if your plan...

- requires a wall of text to explain
- requires months to realize
- finds several people arguing against it
- requires rewriting of game code

chances are it will never materialize.

By now you´re only continuing to argue because you think it saves face.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 21 January 2015 - 06:32 AM.

[Karl Marlow]

Molossian Dog, on 21 January 2015 - 06:31 AM, said:

Look, I don´t want to be mean, but if your plan...

- requires a wall of text to explain
- requires months to realize
- finds several people arguing against it
- requires rewriting of game code

chances are it will never materialize.

By now you´re only continuing to argue because you think it saves face.

Would you mind explaining where it requires a rewrite of game code?

[Molossian Dog]

If you ignore all the other points I made let´s concentrate on the last one. Why not?

ThomasMarik, on 21 January 2015 - 12:13 AM, said:

...

The Zion/St Ives issue

Should this plan be set into motion it will take months to see it bear any fruit. In the meantime Marik units are not willing to sacrifice worlds lost in the 5^th succession wars and Liao wants St Ives back. At the same time Davion is reluctant to just hand these hard won worlds back over. So in the spirit of keeping our armies sharp and ready for combat once we do reach Clan space I propose that the Zion and St Ives provinces be considered battlezones for the duration of the alliance. Marik and Liao would be allowed to fight for their respective worlds, in addition worlds one system deep on either side of these contested worlds would be up for grabs. This will give all factions something to work towards while also limiting any damage to the core factions should one side begin to dominate. In order for this to work the battlezone would be considered a secondary target. The primary focus of every faction would be to move North. I would also propose that the Marik and Liao border be opened in a similar faction. Allow Marik and Liao to engage in wargames as a secondary objective over the worlds Marik took from Liao.

...

This part.

You want Zion and St. Ives as battlezones. For the interim.

We cannot choose target planets. The engine does.

You may ask PGI for giving us right to choose. I´d appreciate it. But I don´t expect much will come from it.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 21 January 2015 - 06:48 AM.

[Karl Marlow]

So you mean to tell me that if a planet comes up for attack that isn't inside a place we, as players, set aside as a 'battlezone' that it would take game code in order for us leave it alone for that round?

[stevemac]

Molossian Dog, on 21 January 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

Also I care for conquest. What would we conquer if your stupid treaty with the Dave would be in place? Steiner? Our newly acquired best Dave buddy would say "nono". So we would sit there cut off from any avenues of conquest. While potential enemies gain strenght. Great strategy.

We will not step in and prevent you going north(not like we can) just like you can stop us going west hitting Liao(not like you can). The truce would mean we don't just tie up 200+ a night each side facing off the same 2 planets back and forth. Hell and if its fights you want we can make it so that each side defends only and stop when a counter reaches 46%. Call it training exercizes.

[Molossian Dog]

ThomasMarik, on 21 January 2015 - 06:56 AM, said:

So you mean to tell me that if a planet comes up for attack that isn't inside a place we, as players, set aside as a 'battlezone' that it would take game code in order for us leave it alone for that round?

It requires gamecode to make sure a "battlezone" planet is chosen in the first place. It is almost random. (btw Davers explained that on the last page already)

You on the other hand mean to tell me that Marik, Liao and Dave players are going to sit on their hands for days, if not weeks to wait for an egigible planet to be chosen by the engine. And god forbid it pops up, but in the wrong timezone. People wouldn´t be playing CW for ages. That is unrealistic.

Above anything else it wouldn´t be fun. You can´t have fun when you are waiting. CW is already taxing the patience of people, is it not?

Stop playing obtuse.

Your idea is cute, we get it. It is also unrealistic and simply not doable. I am sorry, but you will just have to accept that.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 21 January 2015 - 07:49 AM.

[Noaceik]

The only way that Thomas Mariks plan can work is if we learn what the planet groupings are. For example we know that in order to attack Van Dieman we Mariks have to control Campertown, Tsinghai, Old Kentucky, Wazan, Phact, Chamdo, and Lesalles. When we lost Lesalles we lost the ability to attack Van Dieman. Liao has the same issue they can only ever attack Scarborough. Because it is also part of a planet group. So we would have to let Liao take what ever planets are part of that attack group in order for them to gain a new planet group to attack. The chances of Liao then being able to attack the Wazan planet group that we want them to have is still slim. They may end up attacking a different set of planets. Steiner thus far that I have seen is the only faction without planet groupings. For instance we cant attack north, or westward from the planet Moore in Kurita space. We have no choice but to attack Lambrecht, then what ever other planets are part of that planet grouping. Only then would we have a way to know where we go from there. I expect the Davions may have noticed this as well.

Now what I have noticed is this when we had Lesalles the 6th planet in that plant group, us mariks were able to attack Ingersoll in Liao space. If Marik retakes Chamdo, and Lesalles, then we will once again have a chance to take Lingersoll, if we do so then I expect that Liao will gain a chance to attack Lingersoll, and maybe then the planet groupings of Campertown, Tsinghai, Old Kentucky, Wazan, Phact, Chamdo, and Lesalles. I think we should try this.

Edited by Noaceik, 21 January 2015 - 08:37 AM.

[Davers]

ThomasMarik, on 21 January 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

You seem to have only read a few sentences of my post. You missed the part where I said that this plan will take months to bear fruit. What happens a few months from now? Maybe I'm looking at the long game instead of letting pride blind me beyond what happens tomorrow.

Yes, we are all at the mercy of the algorithm. That is why we would need to start now. at 3 planets a day corridors would develop, especially if we were picky and bypass planets that don't suit our needs.

No the plan does not call for only ghost drops. Far from it. The only ghost drops is getting Liao into the game and out of the middle of nowhere they started the game in/ Even one of the Davion posters realizes Liao needs a way to get in the game when they take their Lore glasses off for a second. There would be no other ghost drops unless Steiner and Kurita decided to just let us roll up from the south.

Why is it important to fight the clan. Good question, As I said I'm looking at the long game. Several months from now 2 things are going to happen. First this game is going to hit Steam. WE will see a big influx of players at that time and I'm going to bet you most of them aren't going to be familiar with lore. If they do any research at all about this game they are going to know it is set in the Clan invasion era and that the clan invasions was done by superior mechwarriosn is superior mechs. It isn't going to be hard to see where they go Especially when you consider that they are also going to be adding Nova Cat, Steel Viper, and Diamond Shark. Even if we account for an even distribution of the newbros into every faction that will be 7 clan vs 6 which gives the clans a majority. That is going to be a massive number of points of attack all across the northern front and we will only have 3 factions to try and oppose it.

Why is this our problem? The question isn't if the clans will make it south. If not contained it will happen. If Marik decides to just paint Davion purple or Davion decides to paint us Yellow we aren't going to have to worry about a 3 or 5 front war. WE are going to have to worry about a 7 to 9 front way pinned between the clans on one side and Liao and whoever loses the Davion Marik war on the other. We MUST get every faction involved in the Clan war as early as possible. We have to create points of attack across as many of them as possible. This is why we need Liao up here. That is extra points of attack. IF they are allowed to blob they will end up swarming us when the new clans and newbros arrive.

It's about keeping the Inner Sphere as intact as possible. My plan isn't about a petty territory dispute. This isn't about creating 3-5 fronts. Its about creating 1 front and 2 pseudo fronts for all three factions. It also isn't about stabbing Liao in the back. It's about saving it both as a faction in this game and as a community of players. You may not want to fight the clans but it will eventually happen. Pure numbers will make it so.

For Liao to fight the Clans would require a HUGE SUCCESSFUL campaign through Davion, Kurita, and possibly FRR space. It's not going to happen anytime soon. In fact, I have a hard time imagining it will ever happen. And yeah, Liao is in the worst position in the game. An unpopular house (due in no small part by BT writers who needed 'bad guys') seemingly destined to mediocrity due to their positioning.

If the Davs have a ceasefire with Kurita, as other posters have mentioned, how is Davion getting into the fight with the Clans? Just going to wait until they come to them? Or is this plan a convenient excuse to re-open hostilities? I think you have been drinking too much Davion Kool-Aid.

There is no way to 'bypass planets that don't suit our needs'. Bro, do you even CW? You get one planet to attack. You either hit it, or quit it.

Of all the Houses, Marik alone (due to glitched algorithims) has a chance to create a Clan front. I believe we have decided to explore that option, with Kurita's permission. WE will create our own Clan front. We don't need Davion's support, or permission, to do so.

When new players come from Steam they will side with whatever faction they either like, or are doing well in CW. It is in everyone's best interest to make as much of the map their faction's color as possible.

I have nothing but respect for the Davion units that we fight. They MADE CW for us. Tough, hard fights, every day. ACES, HHoD, AW, 22AL, and all the others, have kept CW fun- in fact I think that Davion and Marik are probably having the most fun in CW out of everybody. I would hate to have a ceasefire ruin all that.

[Davers]

MischiefSC, on 21 January 2015 - 02:08 AM, said:

You want to argue the benefits of such for Marik that's well and good. You have no justification for ever saying Davion wouldn't hold its side of any bargain. Whatever else can be said we've got rock solid organization and a unified set of units and we do exactly what we say we're going to do.

I am not besmirching Davion honor. I am merely pointing out that your alliance with Steiner is probably stronger, and more important, than an alliance with us. You may have kept all your ceasefires but they did all, eventually, end. Not so with Steiner. The only way I could see Marik coming to the table is if Operation: Purple Cuckoo (the creation of a Clan front through Kuritan space) came to fruition.

[Molossian Dog]

I thought it was named Operation: BACON!!1!!

(exclamation marks may not be excluded or altered, they are integral to the success of the whole operation)

I am going to ask the commanding officer.

Well...as soon as I find out who that is.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 21 January 2015 - 10:03 AM.

[Davers]

Molossian Dog, on 21 January 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

I thought it was named Operation: BACON!!1!!

(exclamation marks may not be excluded or altered, they are integral to the success of the whole operation)

I am going to ask the commanding officer.

Well...as soon as I find out who that is.

Stingr4y. He has the Captain-General tags, until he figures out how to remove it.

[MischiefSC]

Davers, on 21 January 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

I am not besmirching Davion honor. I am merely pointing out that your alliance with Steiner is probably stronger, and more important, than an alliance with us. You may have kept all your ceasefires but they did all, eventually, end. Not so with Steiner. The only way I could see Marik coming to the table is if Operation: Purple Cuckoo (the creation of a Clan front through Kuritan space) came to fruition.

There is nothing Marik can do to keep Davion from stomping on Liao. We take Liao worlds pretty much any and every day we have an interest in doing so and we've got the people around. Fighting Marik hasn't significantly slowed that; in fact when we don't have enough people for both we tend to ignore Marik and focus on Liao, because we know we can take Liao.

In the short term Marik benefits because they've got a very active Steiner front. In the long term Davion benefits because there's a steady knife of CSJ coming south and it's going to demand a lot of attention.

if Davion and Marik made a treaty it would end when Marik ended it. Not before. Again, Steiner is full of big boys and girls and they opened the Marik front themselves. Davion is required to attack Marik on behalf of Steiner in the same way Kurita is required to attack Davion on behalf of Liao. Which is to say.... factions attack other factions for their own reasons.

The Dav/Mar border ties up about 200+ units a day who could be other places. The only people who benefit from it are the Clans. Not like Marik ignores the Steiner border in favor of attacking Davion or Davion ignores the Liao border to attack Marik. Those units are being pulled off Clan fronts for the most part. We enjoy fighting Marik in the context of good, fun fights. We like and respect Marik units and players, always a lot of fun and great sportsmanship.

For now though we've traded the same 3 worlds back and forth a dozen times. Said it before and I'll say it again - decisions on Davion overall tactics take place well above my rank and rate but neither Davion nor Marik is going to conquer each other. We're probably not going to move the border any significant distance until some dramatic population shifts happen or some agreement about specific worlds takes place. We're just treading water and while it's fun in its way it's mostly just bleeding resources away from both factions that could be used to let each make significant movement in another.

[Davers]

MischiefSC, on 21 January 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

There is nothing Marik can do to keep Davion from stomping on Liao. We take Liao worlds pretty much any and every day we have an interest in doing so and we've got the people around. Fighting Marik hasn't significantly slowed that; in fact when we don't have enough people for both we tend to ignore Marik and focus on Liao, because we know we can take Liao.

In the short term Marik benefits because they've got a very active Steiner front. In the long term Davion benefits because there's a steady knife of CSJ coming south and it's going to demand a lot of attention.

if Davion and Marik made a treaty it would end when Marik ended it. Not before. Again, Steiner is full of big boys and girls and they opened the Marik front themselves. Davion is required to attack Marik on behalf of Steiner in the same way Kurita is required to attack Davion on behalf of Liao. Which is to say.... factions attack other factions for their own reasons.

The Dav/Mar border ties up about 200+ units a day who could be other places. The only people who benefit from it are the Clans. Not like Marik ignores the Steiner border in favor of attacking Davion or Davion ignores the Liao border to attack Marik. Those units are being pulled off Clan fronts for the most part. We enjoy fighting Marik in the context of good, fun fights. We like and respect Marik units and players, always a lot of fun and great sportsmanship.

For now though we've traded the same 3 worlds back and forth a dozen times. Said it before and I'll say it again - decisions on Davion overall tactics take place well above my rank and rate but neither Davion nor Marik is going to conquer each other. We're probably not going to move the border any significant distance until some dramatic population shifts happen or some agreement about specific worlds takes place. We're just treading water and while it's fun in its way it's mostly just bleeding resources away from both factions that could be used to let each make significant movement in another.

If Davion wanted to create a corridor to the Clans they would not be in a ceasefire with Kurita. They would not be focusing their efforts on Liao. Davion wants to put/keep their names on worlds and that is the reason they are putting units on the Marik/Liao border instead of defending the Clan border. Davion's attention has always been southwards...

If Davion is so worried about the Clans, maybe you should focus on shoring up the Lyran's defences? They seem a bit, undefended.

[MischiefSC]

Davers, on 21 January 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

If Davion wanted to create a corridor to the Clans they would not be in a ceasefire with Kurita. They would not be focusing their efforts on Liao. Davion wants to put/keep their names on worlds and that is the reason they are putting units on the Marik/Liao border instead of defending the Clan border. Davion's attention has always been southwards...

If Davion is so worried about the Clans, maybe you should focus on shoring up the Lyran's defences? They seem a bit, undefended.

Currently Liao is stacking ~60 people against Davion. That's going to cost us a world (we were actually defending on Clan borders, many of us anyway) because we took too long to get back and then focused on defense instead of offense. Then in the last 15 minutes 12 people drop on Ares because.... they're going to take the whole planet in 15 minutes? Meh. At least on Texlos they could have gotten lucky.

It happens, I'm sure the response will be 60+ Liao queues every day for a bit. We also tend to have very busy Marik queues at different times of day.

These take priority, obviously. Liao is never NOT going to be a threat - they have no choice but to be, so we'll always be stomping on Liao. Every time we try to focus on the Clans though we tend to lose worlds on the Liao/Marik border. So we keep coming back. Treaty with DCMS serves everyones interests for now since we've got two other active fronts.

[BlackPhoenix01]

Speaking for 3 major power units in the AFFS - We'd MUCH rather be focusing on the Draconis combine. We only fight in the west because the demand for it is there. I personally don't have an issue creating a NAP with Marik. We'd both get to move North and eventually get to go on the offense against those pesky test-tube babies.

Liao is an interest for other units in the AFFS but I can't really think of anyone who is out for blood against Marik (minus Asuncion and Wazan of course ) I like the whole "FEDCOM" idea but it is just lore. I wouldn't send my unit to hit the Lyrans ever, but I also wouldn't lose sleep if Marik focused North so long as we can focus north too.

I wanted to meet the clans at Luthien. The clan are there - we are still far away from there due to the squabbling in the West and ONLY because of that. Our 'arrangement' with the Dracs wasn't one founded in writing. It is only happening because we couldn't fight the 3 front war and they are getting their faces pushed in by the clans. I think it is about time we put the purple front on ice.

To those who think it's a conspiracy and we just want to be vegetarians on a Liao Diet, you are wrong. Again, 3 major AFFS units want to kill Dracs. What Role Players and Squawkers do to the west doesn't really matter to us.

Edited by BlackPhoenix01, 21 January 2015 - 01:34 PM.

[Davers]

MischiefSC, on 21 January 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

Currently Liao is stacking ~60 people against Davion. That's going to cost us a world (we were actually defending on Clan borders, many of us anyway) because we took too long to get back and then focused on defense instead of offense. Then in the last 15 minutes 12 people drop on Ares because.... they're going to take the whole planet in 15 minutes? Meh. At least on Texlos they could have gotten lucky.

It happens, I'm sure the response will be 60+ Liao queues every day for a bit. We also tend to have very busy Marik queues at different times of day.

These take priority, obviously. Liao is never NOT going to be a threat - they have no choice but to be, so we'll always be stomping on Liao. Every time we try to focus on the Clans though we tend to lose worlds on the Liao/Marik border. So we keep coming back. Treaty with DCMS serves everyones interests for now since we've got two other active fronts.

So the end result is that the Clans are a distant threat, and it's more important to fight Liao. Until Davion takes the Clan threat seriously, why should we?

[Gorgo7]

MischiefSC, on 20 January 2015 - 08:16 PM, said:

Biggest problem with Liao for Davion is that every time we've ignored the Liao border it got attacked - and likely should. Liao has absolutely no choice BUT to fight Davion or Marik. They have a treaty with Marik already, so they will inevitably attack Davion. There's no other option for them.

Ergo Davion has to stomp on Liao. Because if they don't they'll end up fighting Liao on Davion worlds sooner or later, better to just get that over with now and go cut into Liao territory. There is no real viable option for Davion/Liao save the complete annihilation of one side or the other, because Liao has no options but attacking Davion.

Marik is another matter. We created and kept a treaty with Marik over Christmas and it lasted until Marik was done with it - it wasn't Davion that crossed that line. We have a lot of respect for Marik and a treaty with them isn't out of order for Davion by any stretch. Been fighting long enough we have a good command of each others tactics and pugging on the Clan border I'm always happy to see some Mariks with us; I know they showed up to play and play hard, not just farm, and are in it to win it and we're almost certainly going to agree on a strategy out of the gate.

Davion has no option but to stomp Liao, specifically because Liao has no option but to attack Davion. Marik though? We've got good relations with Marik. Expanding into Marik space doesn't actually get Davion anything - what, a longer Steiner border? Liao we have to fight. Expanding into Kurita space would get us closer to a Clanner border, which we want. Admittedly the way things are going we can be patient and end up with a CSJ border before too long. Steiner? Fedcom, 'nuff said. Don't blow off a Davion/Marik alliance though. We've got more in common than any other set of factions in the game right now.

Davion attacked our (Liao) worlds, drove for our Capitals...ergo we made a treaty with Marik, not the other way around as Mischief would have you believe.
Should Davion return our worlds we will make a treaty with them and go hunting the Clan.

[Davers]

Gorgo7, on 21 January 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

Davion attacked our (Liao) worlds, drove for our Capitals...ergo we made a treaty with Marik, not the other way around as Mischief would have you believe.
Should Davion return our worlds we will make a treaty with them and go hunting the Clan.

Naked Davion aggression disguised as 'protecting themselves'. No mention of course that all the worlds Marik/Liao/Davion are fighting over ALL once belonged to Liao...

[IraqiWalker]

Molossian Dog, on 21 January 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

A handful of the Dave are playing nice on the forums.
Have you people ever considered this might be tactic?

The Dave would like to gobble up House Liao without Marik interference. No surprise, really. A good way to do that is sowing division among his enemies. Among Liao-Marik and within House Marik. From their perspective understandable, I get that.

What is not understandable is the reaction of some of the Leaguers. What the Free Worlders should do is act in their own best interest.

If all it takes is a pat on the back from said handful of the Dave to make you commit strategic suicide then you should contemplate about your self-confidence.


Now the math:

If Liao dies the Dave has less fronts. That´s not up to debate. It is a fact.
If you play nice with the Dave he will have it easier. Also a fact.
Left would be Kurita, Marik and Steiner. Yet another fact.

Now probabilities come into play.
Chances the Dave will attack Steiner? Nil.
Marik and Kurita left. The Dracs have the Clans at their gates. That means there is no counterweight.
Chances the Dave will just sit back, refrain from gaining worlds and only help defending against the Clans? ...
...
...Yeah...

Also I care for conquest. What would we conquer if your stupid treaty with the Dave would be in place? Steiner? Our newly acquired best Dave buddy would say "nono". So we would sit there cut off from any avenues of conquest. While potential enemies gain strenght. Great strategy.

I keep hearing stuff about "WHEN the Clans come south, then this and that..."
So far they haven´t. IF that should come to pass you can bring up your ideas again.

Backstabbing the Liaos (and standing by while they are taken down is just another way of backstabbing) would be wrong, because...
- it would be dishonourable. Other factions would trust us less. For good reason.
- it serves a current enemies´ interests. He gains.
- it doesn´t serve the FWLs´ interests. We gain nothing.
- it would cut us off from further conquest.
- if successful it frees manpower that could be used against us. Declarations of intention are just that. No more.

A pat on the back is nice, but painting worlds in purple is even better.

Don´t be the useful idiot.

Your paranoia, while disturbing, is just that. We aren't "playing nice". We actually respect our Marik brothers and sisters. Also, for the record, the only thing Marik can do is probably slow us down while we conquer Liao, Marik pilots can't fight on Liao/Davion planets, much like we can't fight on Steiner/Marik planets. I understand why you would want to keep your alliance with Liao, and try to keep the FWL name clean, but you're not backstabbing Liao if we invade them. What's the most both our houses can do? Pile on 60+ on the one planet on the MRK/DAV border that opens up while another 60+ DAVs queue up on the Liao border?

You have a NAP with Liao. Great, but that's it. You're not capable of fighting their battles for them. Much like we can't fight Steiner's battles for them when you guys drive into them. It's in the name "Non Aggression Pact" That's all it says: I don't fight you, you don't fight me"

You can keep your "conquering" as you put it, going on your northern border, while we're on our northern border. I personally want Davion boots on Luthien facing off with the Jags, and either teaming up with the dracs, or taking over. However, we honor our treaty with them, since they need all the manpower they can get to hold off against the clans, and we don't want to keep as many fronts open, while we consolidate our forces (we're still sending units regularly to fight on the clan borders. Especially on Kuritan planets).

Davers, on 21 January 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

If Davion wanted to create a corridor to the Clans they would not be in a ceasefire with Kurita. They would not be focusing their efforts on Liao. Davion wants to put/keep their names on worlds and that is the reason they are putting units on the Marik/Liao border instead of defending the Clan border. Davion's attention has always been southwards...

If Davion is so worried about the Clans, maybe you should focus on shoring up the Lyran's defences? They seem a bit, undefended.

We defend all IS factions against the clans, we've been doing that since day 1 of CW. However, defense is all we can do, especially when few are attacking. Also, we're in a ceasefire with Kurita because our leadership, and theirs reached that agreement, despite the fact that many of our forces want to drive straight through Draconis space into Luthein, and put the clans on defense.

Gorgo7, on 21 January 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

Davion attacked our (Liao) worlds, drove for our Capitals...ergo we made a treaty with Marik, not the other way around as Mischief would have you believe.
Should Davion return our worlds we will make a treaty with them and go hunting the Clan.

Are we back to the same sob story?

Everyone attacked everyone on day 1 of CW. We kept on pressing into Liao. I mean honestly, what would you guys do if you had a NAP with both us and Marik? Not play CW? Your only attack vector is into Davion, so yes, we'll keep fighting on the Liao/Dav border. However, don't make it seem like you guys are innocent lambs taken to the slaughter. Yes, you're not in a favorable position, and the game design has shafted your house (If you had periphery dominions, or pirate worlds around, that would be a different story. Like Liao gets to fight all of those guys, and both Marik and Davion step off. You watch our backs while we do other things kind of deal), but we're not going to sit there and wait for your attacks to pile on, and don't tell me Liao units haven't conducted attacks against Davion (by all rights you should, and are doing it. It's called counter attacking).

Davers, on 21 January 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

Naked Davion aggression disguised as 'protecting themselves'. No mention of course that all the worlds Marik/Liao/Davion are fighting over ALL once belonged to Liao...

First of all, I'm gonna say, not ALL.

Second, as mentioned earlier. Everyone attacked everyone on the first few days of CW. We managed to come out on top, but it's not like we'll just sit there and wait for the next wave of attacks to pile on, on our worlds. Not when we can drive the fight into our attackers' territory, and fight there. That serves AT LEAST two goals:

1- All combat is done on non-Davion planets
2- Expand our faction's borders.


Right now Liao has no choice but to attack Davion worlds. Otherwise, what else would their units do? Sit at home and knit?

Edited by IraqiWalker, 21 January 2015 - 02:25 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Davers, on 21 January 2015 - 01:51 PM, said:

So the end result is that the Clans are a distant threat, and it's more important to fight Liao. Until Davion takes the Clan threat seriously, why should we?

There are some great Liao units. However Davion has and will continue to fight Liao *in addition* to everything else we do. As said prior we'd like to go deal with the Clans sooner rather than later but we're not going to get 2 borders rolled at home while we do so.

Davers, on 21 January 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

Naked Davion aggression disguised as 'protecting themselves'. No mention of course that all the worlds Marik/Liao/Davion are fighting over ALL once belonged to Liao...

Most, indeed nearly all Davion units don't have a big investment in fighting Liao. We tried to make a ceasefire around the Christmas/New Years holiday with them. The Liao response was to intentionally organize a large offensive against Davion worlds since they knew we wouldn't be attacking. That pretty much sums up the Davion/Liao relationship. Liao has nowhere to go but attacking Davion, we know that and so we're just keeping the steady pressure on. When we do let up on Liao to focus on Marik or Kurita or the Clans or even take a holiday the Liao response has universally been to step up their attacks on Davion. Not that I blame them; what else are they going to do?

We fight Liao because it's inevitable. As a given rule most units would prefer fighting Clans or Kurita or both. Currently though it's Liao attacking and Marik attacking so that's where we need to spend our time.

We are fighting on worlds taken from Marik and Liao because... we won more than we lost. Pretending that Marik and Liao did not and does not attack regularly is pretty disingenuous.

There have been repeated comments here from Davion folks even high ranking unit members saying they'd love to talk to Marik units about a ceasefire. Davion has started and kept ceasefires more than any other faction. Pretending that Davion wouldn't make, hold and keep a ceasefire with Marik is disingenuous as well. If AFFS decides to make a ceasefire they would do so with the full expectation from every member of every AFFS unit, loyalist or AFFS-involved merc unit, expecting to keep it and expecting their unit commanders to keep it. That bit about Davion units attacking Steiner? Davion was more offended by that then Steiner was.

If it's not in Mariks interests to make a ceasefire with Davion that's a call for Marik to make. Trying to pretend however that it's because there's any reason to think Davion wouldn't hold that treaty is flat out BS. We catch a lot of crap for playing 'the good guys', but we do and we do by choice. Marik needs to do whats in Mariks best interests. If that involves spending the bulk of their units trading the same 3 worlds back and forth with Davion that's cool. Marik is fun to fight. Davion has already made it pretty clear that we've got a lot of respect for Marik and Marik units and are happy to talk about a ceasefire/treaty though and we've also proven, repeatedly, that we are honest and reliable about ceasefires. If there is fighting on the Davion/Marik border though it's because it's what Marik wants.

I get there have been worlds taken by Davion that Marik units want back. Totally understandable. Above my rank and rate to make decisions on but personally I've got no issue with moving worlds back to Marik and stabilizing that border and I know I'm not alone in that position. If Marik wants a quiet Davion border the Davion web page is http://affs.enjin.com/, it links to the Davion TS where you can see the AFFS command channel as well as forums.

Worth repeating though - Davion/Liao conflict has nothing to do with Davion/Marik conflict and long term goals are Davion/Clans. We've always been upfront about that. We've never broken a treaty even when the other side did. We take our agreements seriously and have a lot of love and respect for Marik units. If it's not in Mariks interests to look at ceasefire options with Davion that is what it is - just be honest about it. We're honest that we're attacking Liao and will for the forseeable future because we recognize that Liao has no choice but attacking Davion. We don't really care about Liao tactically aside from that - taking all of Liao isn't going to provide us any benefits aside from being able to shift our attentions coreward.