40 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

YOu all know what I am talking about. You will sit there have a mech dead to rights they start to tap their JJ's then all of a sudden Hit Reg is borked to hell and back. I think this is the reason certain mechs/chassis are being hailed as OP. Its not so much the boxes as it is the JJ's throwing off the registration.

I really need to get a better set up so I can start recording just how prevalent this is becoming.

Or am I the only one that does not do this?

[Monkey Lover]

Yep JJ hit reg is the worst but i dont see them fixing it any time soon. The biggest problem is the server sees the mechs jumping and on the ground long after you see them jumping or on the ground.

This is not just a JJ issue but a angle issue. If you run on a hill upward or downward you are less lightly to get hit. In a light running around people on the side of a hill is like having a shield.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 24 December 2014 - 01:57 PM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Has anyone ever made a video, that shows this exploit? I hear the Timber Wolf is the worst offender, but I've never witnessed it myself.

Edited by Kevjack, 23 December 2014 - 01:36 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

Kevjack, on 23 December 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Has anyone ever made a video, that shows this exploit? I hear the Timber Wolf is the worst offender, but I've never witnessed it myself.

I see it all the time, TimberWrolves, Griffins Woverines and Firestarters are the aorst culprit. I do not have the rig to be able to record yet, however in a couple of months I will be getting a new one I hope.

[cSand]

Wow

all these matches running QKDs and I never knew about this Been missing out apparently.



Well, I can do well enough without exploit crutches I think so I'll just pretend it doesn't exist

[Mad Porthos]

Yes Darien, we do know what you are talking about and I think there are multiple contributing factors, some of which are "broken" and some of which are really the fault of the gunnery skills/or lack thereof, of those shooting at some jumping mechs. it is the combination of the broken and the merely difficult that frustrate experienced and noobs alike.

The Broken - This refers to jumping animations, one of the most notable of which is the jumping animation of the Victor chassis. By tapping the jump jets repeatedly, an animation sequence is repeatedly queued that sort of has the Victor physically crouch to gather itself for a hop, effectively dropping its hitboxes downwards for a split second, before then propelling those same hitboxes upwards for a split second due to the initial "kick" of jumpjet thrust propelling upwards. Tapping the jump jets repeately keeps repeatedly starting and cancelling this series of erratic movements, before it can properly play out or even be measured/confirmed on server. It is proposed that this constantly creates situations where YOUR game client program will show your opponent jumping higher if he is using this, his visual representation at a different angle or coordinate than they actually are on server because it is trying to predict where they are to compensate for any lag and such and the server can never quite be sure where exactly in the interupted jump animation the jj abusing mech is, again due to lag, hsr and the constant interrupting/fanning of jj cancelling and restartinhg that jump animation and movement of hitboxes/model. HSR (host state rewind) is also constantly trying to check if your shots would hit based on what the server saw at the given moment of the shot on your screen, modified by whatever lag/ping time differences between you... however because the ANIMATIONS are not properly timed/calibrated, being drawn on your client based on a possibly inaccurate report of whether targets jump jets are on or off at any given second/tick, you may be aiming at a left or right torso that is actually higher or lower in the "reality" of HSR, which is sort of compensating/ splitting the difference between your possibly very low ping time and someone elses very high ping time. In this situation, I have heard packet loss also can accenuate the inaccuracy created by this jump animation.

Those who recommended I use this on Victors suggested I also setup a VPN to average out my ping (low), with players that have higher pings in my playgroup, because when communication is slowed by packet loss or other effects of such networking, there is more chance of error in the HSR, or a desynchonization between jump animation and the actual hitboxes you should be aiming at. All very interesting and even a bit hard to follow, since I dont really have any Victors except a recently acquired one from tournament, but basically all this was the spiel I was given on how to play Victors effectively, and then I was also pointed to metamechs.com, to learn more about what is literally called jump jet ABUSE on the site, explaining part of this.

Now, the NOT broken part. Different jump jet types perform differently by class, with each having an initial kick of acceleration that trails off as used. At certain tonnage limits there are mechs that  have jumping advantage over mechs even slightly higher (5tons) in weight because they still have that higher KICK of acceleration of the lower class of jump jets meant for the category up to an including that tonnage, e.g., Victors with heavy class jump jets, when they are assault class mechs. Even though patches and nerfs have reduced this across the board, repeated fanning of jump jets can create erratic jumping trajectories rather than a smooth arc that anyone can easily lead  fire on and hit by predicting position. As an example of this, I know some jenner pilots who only run one or 2 jump jets for terrain skating and cushioning landings. Often thats all you need because your air trajectory if you burn for too long is SO PREDICTABLE, but others run full complement, rarely going high but some times stuttering jj use right before landing because that is the moment a pilot tracking their trajectory actually fires, to hit them at that pause when they stick their landing. That extra kick has an tendancy to throw off aim, if you have enough jets and kick.

In the case of the kick of JJ's added to ANIMATION/JJ ABUSE, it gets too much.  But when just a jenner or mist lynx is using its JJ well, give em some credit. Ya missed.

Edited by Mad Porthos, 23 December 2014 - 11:07 PM.

[Koniving]

Kevjack, on 23 December 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Has anyone ever made a video, that shows this exploit? I hear the Timber Wolf is the worst offender, but I've never witnessed it myself.

CW Zerg Rush demonstrates the exploit right in front of you.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Timberwolf, Victor, Blackjack 1&3, are the prime candidates that require JJ animation fixes, you really don't have that problem on most of the other JJ mechs.

Its the mechs that do that instant leaping animation or in the Victor's case it hunches over, the others such as Jenner or FS or Shadowhawk & Griffin will pop a tiny bit, but no where near as bad.

Its pretty much just.. ridiculous to have allowed it to go on this long.

Its exploiting a broken mechanic, and anyone that uses it for the purpose of exploiting it and tries to justify it as some "valid tactic" needs to be slapped.

Please fix the animations for JJ's PGI.

Glitch hopping needs to come to an end.

Edited by Mister D, 23 December 2014 - 10:28 PM.

[Rhaegor]

I see jump jet tap spamming a lot more these days. Really annoying. Maybe a cooldown on jumpjet usage? 10 seconds between startup?

[cSand]

Rhaegor, on 23 December 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

I see jump jet tap spamming a lot more these days. Really annoying. Maybe a cooldown on jumpjet usage? 10 seconds between startup?

Ok, I legitimately play JJ mechs, QKD most often

I need to be able to jump more than once every 10 seconds and in a brawl I'll be jumping all over the place

next idea please


edit: Maybe we can just fix the animations or w/e responsible and not totally destroy JJ's

Edited by cSand, 23 December 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[DaZur]

cSand, on 23 December 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

Next idea please

I'd be okay with a brief spool-up time between when you actually issue a jump command and when the jets kick in...

This would mitigate the exploit while not being overtly intrusive.

[cSand]

Hmm yea but... I need tha responsiveness man! I'm in a QKD, those JJ's are a lifeline

Could just make the mech overheat if you spam the spacebar or something

[Cyborne Elemental]

I think if glitches like this get solved, maybe we can start talking about increasing height cap and other adjustments to make JJ's fun again.

[Jonny Taco]

hit box animation problem, it's not related to hit detection... The hit box and model will warp up and down regardless of connection. Severity is model dependent.

[Tarogato]

Mister D, on 24 December 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

I think if glitches like this get solved, maybe we can start talking about increasing height cap and other adjustments to make JJ's fun again.

Hmmm, am I the only once that never noticed the heat from jumpjets? I know they added it... but I just never felt it when they did. Feels the same as ever. o_0

[YueFei]

It's not a JJ problem, it's a mech model animation problem. Even a brief thrust into the air causes certain mech models to spazz out, and when landing they pitch over as if they landed from a great height even though they only fell 4 meters.

All mechs have this animation, but the jump capable ones can trigger it repeatedly.

Watch an Atlas fall off a short ledge, it also pitches over at the waist, and if he's torso twisted, it really warps his hitboxes.

Too bad you can't make your Atlas do that on-command.

[cSand]

Tarogato, on 24 December 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

Hmmm, am I the only once that never noticed the heat from jumpjets? I know they added it... but I just never felt it when they did. Feels the same as ever. o_0

I notice if I'm shooting and jumping Ive found

[DaZur]

cSand, on 23 December 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

Hmm yea but... I need tha responsiveness man! I'm in a QKD, those JJ's are a lifeline

Could just make the mech overheat if you spam the spacebar or something

How about we just castrate the jackhats who've carried over the bunny-hop exploit over from the FPShooter genre?

I know it's human nature to chase the razors edge to eek out that last bit of advantage in competitive environments but damn... Nothing like cutting off ones nose to spite their face.

The disingenuous logic of complaining over exploits that break the game but in the same breath insist one has to exploit it to remain competitive is just asinine.

Pro-tip: Don't crap in your own sandbox.

[YueFei]

Well, one thing I think would be interesting to do is to allow all mechs to do this, even the non-jump-capable ones. Tap spacebar and your mech crouch/flinches if it doens't have jump jets. They did say they wanted to add crouching to the game, but so far it hasn't happened.

They could balance it out by making the reticule actually match the mech's movements, rather than remaining rock-steady-centered during the hop. Remember MW4, where weapon impacts actually physically shoved your crosshairs off center, and where turning left or right actually made your mech lean and also pitched your crosshairs down or up depending on which way you were facing?

They could make it so that the hard landing actually shoves your crosshairs down into the ground, leaving it there for the player to manually drag back up.

It could even be one of those piloting skill things, where if you're already pitched fully downward and hit the ground, with nothing to help absorb the landing by bending at the waist, you fall down. So to brace for a landing you'd pitch your mech's torso up, so that on the landing it can pitch forward to help absorb the impact.

Well, there's a lot of interesting things they could do with the game's mechanics and physics. But probably not going to happen.

[cSand]

DaZur, on 24 December 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

The disingenuous logic of complaining over exploits that break the game but in the same breath insist one has to exploit it to remain competitive is just asinine.

Reminds me of pro baseball. "performance enhancing drugs are BAD" *turns around an injects steroids*