33 replies to this topic

[Mahnmut]

Rather than introducing a 1/1/1/1 limit to drop decks (hinted at here) wouldn't it be better to simply restrict multiples of the same mech variant? i.e. you could not take 2 x TDR 9S's but you could still take a 9S and a 5SS.

Edit: Sorry I posted this in the wrong forum. Can this be moved to CW forum?

Edited by Mahnmut, 06 January 2015 - 04:19 PM.

[Jolly Llama]

3/3/3/3 in pug drops is bad enough. Just take the limits off and everybody fight. Christ, what a bunch of whiners.

[Asyres]

While 1/1/1/1 would be horrible and frustrating, locking variants would only fix the problem (such as it is) on the IS side.

[Aiden Skye]

This might hurt IS more as clan mechs could just change omnipods and create a duplicate mech. They have no quirks to separate 1 chassis varient from another.

[Mahnmut]

That is a good point about it hurting IS more than clans. I just don't want to see 1/1/1/1 simply because of people complaining about a single mech variant. Maybe if they introduce quirks to the clan mechs chassis it might be possible.

[Aiden Skye]

I don't like 1/1/1/1 as well. It's very restrictive and sort of makes no sense. It might also seriously upset attacking vs defending. Its also a big problem for me seeing as I don't have any assault mechs other than the free atlas PGI gave us. I have no intention of getting more.

[Black Arachne]

A thunderbolt is a thunderbolt - a stormcrow is a stormcrow - regardless of thunderbolt version or clan pod.

[Ultimax]

As I said in another thread, this only penalizes the IS.

SCR-Prime, SCR-D & SCR-C are all different variants, and yet through omni-pods can run the exact same build.


On top of that Russ went on record early on stating you could bring multiples of a variant as long as you owned own.


Having people know that, purchase clone variants just for it and then changing it a few months later would be pretty crappy.

[FupDup]

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Maybe, I thought of that too, limiting variants to a max of one or two.

---

I'd like to consider going from 240 down to 230 tons to see how that impacts drop decks for both sides; since it's related to discussing CW Drop Decks.

[FupDup]

Praetor Knight, on 06 January 2015 - 08:19 PM, said:

Maybe, I thought of that too, limiting variants to a max of one or two.

---

I'd like to consider going from 240 down to 230 tons to see how that impacts drop decks for both sides; since it's related to discussing CW Drop Decks.

IS:
3 TDR + 1 FS9 = 230

Clan:
1 TBR + 2 SCR + 1 IFR = 230
2 HBR + 1 SCR + 1 IFR = 230
3 SCR + 1 HBR = 230


...Ultimately, we need to stahp trying to "balance" mechs by making you only able to use a few of them. Tonnage Limits, 3/3/3/3, and the proposed Variant Limits are all bandaids for deeper problems. The real problem is that certain mechs/classes are usually the best classes to use in nearly all situations (*cough cough heavies and assaults cough cough*). For Variant Limits in particular, it's trying to cover up the fact that some variants are vastly superior to all of the others (i.e. the Blunderbolt situation).

Balance the damn weight classes and variants based on their own strengths/weaknesses/merits and we won't have to limit how many are being used in the first place. A team deploying 12 Dire Wolves or w/e is only overpowered if we have game design that doesn't allow the weaknesses of those mechs to come into play enough to outweigh their strengths, just like how a team of 12 TDR-9S's is only OP is the variant itself is OP (and/or the other variants are UP, pick your poison).


Side-Note: Tonnage Limits are the biggest cause of the TDR and 3 SCR/1TBR metas in the first place. The limits prevent people from going all assaults or all heavies (60 tonners aren't real heavies, they're glorified mediums) and the minimum limit prevents a dropdeck of 4 lights. This basically forces people to choose mechs that lie within the middle of the tonnage spectrum, aka high-end mediums and low-end heavies. They don't have much other choice.

Edited by FupDup, 06 January 2015 - 08:34 PM.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 06 January 2015 - 08:32 PM, said:

...Ultimately, we need to stahp trying to "balance" mechs by making you only able to use a few of them.

What we really need is for the average casual to come to terms with the fact that CW is competitive mode, and bringing optimized loadouts to win is the entire point.

There is a solo queue if you want to goof around in your 2x Streak, 2x SRM 6, 2x LRM 15 Catapult. (Saw this mech tonight, firing Streaks at targets 400m away!)


It was perfectly OK with all of the Clan Faction CW players when they could bring 3x SCRs to fill out their decks, and now that the IS has like 2 competitive heavies, suddenly we need to find away to fix this travesty!!!


These forums need: http://www.diapers.com/

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 January 2015 - 08:37 PM.

[Black Arachne]

What we really need is for each mech to be optimized or what was the point in wasting time and money to put them in the game?

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 06 January 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

What we really need is for the average casual to come to terms with the fact that CW is competitive mode, and bringing optimized loadouts to win is the entire point.

There is a solo queue if you want to goof around in your 2x Streak, 2x SRM 6, 2x LRM 15 Catapult. (Saw this mech tonight, firing Streaks at targets 400m away!)


It was perfectly OK with all of the Clan Faction CW players when they could bring 3x SCRs to fill out their decks, and now that the IS has like 2 competitive heavies, suddenly we need to find away to fix this travesty!!!


These forums need: http://www.diapers.com/

I think you missed the moral of the story?


The moral of the story is that I hate crap like 3/3/3/3, Tonnage Limits, etc. because it's basically admitting defeat and saying "Welp, we don't know how to balance the mechs and give people a reason to use non-SCR mediums, so let's force them instead." I prefer mechs to be balanced based on their own strengths and weaknesses, not "Oh hey, your team has 3 arbitrary slots that can only be filled with lights."

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 06 January 2015 - 08:41 PM, said:

I think you missed the moral of the story?


The moral of the story is that I hate crap like 3/3/3/3, Tonnage Limits, etc. because it's basically admitting defeat and saying "Welp, we don't know how to balance the mechs and give people a reason to use non-SCR mediums, so let's force them instead." I prefer mechs to be balanced based on their own strengths and weaknesses, not "Oh hey, your team has 3 arbitrary slots that can only be filled with lights."

If you want perfect balance where every piece is equal, you play checkers.



You have to accept the fact that there will be variance of power amongst builds/mechs in a game with this many variants and much of the imbalance was built into the system over decades of BT.



You can hate those methods all you want, but this isn't a table top and balancing your personal army according to a battle value system doesn't work when 12 individual players all queue up for a random match together. vs. 12 other people who don't know each other (or small squads, or whatever).


Wishing for each and every mech to be balanced according to their strengths and weaknesses is a complete pipe dream bud, sorry to be harsh but it is what it is.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 January 2015 - 08:51 PM.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Ultimatum X, on 06 January 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

As I said in another thread, this only penalizes the IS.

SCR-Prime, SCR-D & SCR-C are all different variants, and yet through omni-pods can run the exact same build.


On top of that Russ went on record early on stating you could bring multiples of a variant as long as you owned own.


Having people know that, purchase clone variants just for it and then changing it a few months later would be pretty crappy.

It also kills diversity in a major way. The quirk system is already starting to do that in a way.

All 3/3/3/3 was for was to prevent 12 Assaults or 12 Lights in a match. The tonnage limit already does this for CW.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 06 January 2015 - 08:50 PM, said:

If you want perfect balance where every piece is equal, you play checkers.



You have to accept the fact that there will be variance of power amongst builds/mechs in a game with this many variants and much of the imbalance was built into the system over decades of BT.



You can hate those methods all you want, but this isn't a table top and balancing your personal army according to a battle value system doesn't work when 12 individual players all queue up for a random match together. vs. 12 other people who don't know each other (or small squads, or whatever).


Wishing for each and every mech to be balanced according to their strengths and weaknesses is a complete pipe dream bud, sorry to be harsh but it is what it is.

It's only a pipe dream because of not caring.


The Thud 5S and 9S gigaquirks, among others, have proven that it's possible to go from the lowest levels of underhive ghetto trash to the peaks of Mount Tryhard if enough drastic force is used. Heck, even certain Hunchbacks can be scary at times now. After seeing success stories like theirs, that argument doesn't really hold much water anymore.

Edited by FupDup, 06 January 2015 - 09:34 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

I think there could be another solution that is more balanced,
Forget about the variants, just Limit the pilots to only 1 of a chassis,

that way you could only bring 1 Timberwolf or 1 Thunderbolt,
But still be able to bring a decked out Summoner or Jagermech,
as well as, you could also only bring 1 StromCrow or 1 Griffin,
But still be able to bring a decked out Nova or HunchBack,
Assuming you were still under your Drop Deck Tonnage,

I feel this will solve a lot of the problems we are currently experiencing,
And it would also be fair to both the InnerSphere and the Clans,

(sorry for how this must look posting on a cell phone)

@FupDup,
Assuming the TDR & FS9 are the only good IS mechs,
also Assuming free player in CW, means no HBR & IFR,
its not a full fix, but i do think it would help some in CW,

Edit- After Cell Rewrite,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 07 January 2015 - 02:28 PM.

[FupDup]

Andi Nagasia, on 06 January 2015 - 09:51 PM, said:

I think there could be another solution that is more balanced,
Forget about the variants, just Limit the particular chassis too only 1,

that way you could only bring 1 Timberwolf or 1 Thunderbolt,
But still be able to bring a Summoner or Jagermech,
Assuming you were still undet Tonnage,

I feel this will solve a lot of the problems we are currently experiencing,
And it would also be fair to both the InnerSphere and the Clans,

( sorry for how this must look posting on a cell phone)

IS:
TDR + FS9 + [?] + [?]

Clan:
TBR + HBR + SCR + IFR


Clans seem to get more benefit out of that one...

[Vassago Rain]

No.