113 replies to this topic

[blood4blood]

^ Not sure if that was why, but yes, the original implementation of convergence often sent shots firing off in wildly unexpected directions. I believe it was a combination of the ray-casting and lag effects someone else mentioned, where you'd think you're aiming at a mech but the server would read you aiming at distant terrain or a building instead, throwing the shot way off. It definitely added to the learning curve, and made Pinpont a valuable skill to get. It also had the effect the OP suggested in making arm-mounts generally more accurate than torso mounts, and making it so most people would time firing them separately to avoid convergence problems.

(I'd favor bringing convergence back over a lot of other game-balance measures that seem tacky and artificial to me, but I can also understand if PGI decided not to do so because of new players and people who just don't want to learn the different skills needed in building mechs and shooting with convergence implemented.)

[KuroNyra]

LordKnightFandragon, on 15 January 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

OMG, that would be so damn confusing to keep track of in the heat of battle......

Just like it was in the Lore.
Heck during battles you could clearly understand they did not have pinpoint accuracy like we have. They had to aim carefully, wait for there lock to go "golden".


The Only Battlemech in the Lore who could very quickly target a part was the Warhawk thanks to his targeting computer.

[Sarlic]

blood4blood, on 16 January 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

^ Not sure if that was why, but yes, the original implementation of convergence often sent shots firing off in wildly unexpected directions. I believe it was a combination of the ray-casting and lag effects someone else mentioned, where you'd think you're aiming at a mech but the server would read you aiming at distant terrain or a building instead, throwing the shot way off. It definitely added to the learning curve, and made Pinpont a valuable skill to get. It also had the effect the OP suggested in making arm-mounts generally more accurate than torso mounts, and making it so most people would time firing them separately to avoid convergence problems.

(I'd favor bringing convergence back over a lot of other game-balance measures that seem tacky and artificial to me, but I can also understand if PGI decided not to do so because of new players and people who just don't want to learn the different skills needed in building mechs and shooting with convergence implemented.)

Believe i me, would like to see it too. But i wouldn't be surprised if this is a design decision.

Edited by Sarlic, 16 January 2015 - 11:11 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

KuroNyra, on 16 January 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

Just like it was in the Lore.
Heck during battles you could clearly understand they did not have pinpoint accuracy like we have. They had to aim carefully, wait for there lock to go "golden".


The Only Battlemech in the Lore who could very quickly target a part was the Warhawk thanks to his targeting computer.

Why cant we have something like that then? When all our weapons are pointing at the target we have locked on, our pipper changes to some other color to indicate were actually aimed properly?

[Andi Nagasia]

Bobzilla, on 16 January 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

PGI isn't capable of changing anything from how it is now. It's like the game was created by an advanced alien race whos tech they don't fully understand, so they can't change anything without breaking it, all they can do is add on different things. So while this idea is great, and many others that have been proposed, the answer is always, "We (pgi) can't handle that.".

just saying there is a way for them to mipliment this into MWO without much work,

Andi Nagasia, on 15 January 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

added a convergence example to page 1,
showing how it could be implemented into MWO,

-Example-

(convergence1)
this is how MWO behaves right now when playing,

my solution is to make weapons target past the target location to simulate this Anti-convergence,
this would just be setting the distance to the location over again to the weapon for targeting,
so if an enemy is 200m away, your weapons instead target 400m past them(600m),
if an enemy is 100m away, your weapons instead target 200m past them(300m),
this gives the illusion of weapons Anti-convergence, but keeps it balanced,

-Example-

(convergence2)
this could also give the Skill for weapon convergence actually have meaning,
by cutting the distance down from x3 to x2, enemy at 200m weapons fire at +200m(400M),

[Khobai]

Quote

Also take note that if the game is too hard. Why should any new player bothered to play it.

exactly my point

the people that want this game to be a complex sim will end up destroying it by frustrating new players and isolating older players. theyre the kindve people that are content to ruin the game for everyone else to live out their own mechsim fantasies.

the best type of solution is one that doesnt deviate too far from the status quo. that keeps everyone happy except for the hardcore sim crowd who will never be happy because theyre trying to make the game something its not and never will be. best just to ignore those people till they go back to playing farm simulator 2015.

also battletech has gimballed torso weapons anyway (they fire in a 180 degree front cone!). so this is all nonsense.

Edited by Khobai, 16 January 2015 - 11:19 AM.

[Ralgas]

Do this and welcome in lrmpocalypse 4 (or is it 5? i've been away a while)

unless all mechs get scaled to heavy size or larger convergence will just shift the meta to light rushes and missile based weaponry, with the occasional nova/stormcrow/hunchback las vomit in there because grouped hardpoints.

As we have it any sort of spread is either going to be ineffective on assaults (will still land in 1 hitbox) or will introduce full misses to aiming at lights

[Metus regem]

Khobai, on 16 January 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

exactly my point

the people that want this game to be a complex sim will end up destroying it by frustrating new players and isolating older players. theyre the kindve people that are content to ruin the game for everyone else to live out their own mechsim fantasies.

the best type of solution is one that doesnt deviate too far from the status quo. that keeps everyone happy except for the hardcore sim crowd who will never be happy because theyre trying to make the game something its not and never will be. best just to ignore those people till they go back to playing farm simulator 2015.

Why not make it an option, in the controll settings, kind of like how arm lock is? I would welcome the extra challenge, as I got board very quickly with CoD/Battlefeild/andclones, beacuse it was too easy, and did not require much skill...

I loved the battle pods from so long ago, they made the game a lot of fun and challenging, but then again I really liked the more sim like versions of Mechwarrior that have been dumbed down towards more arcade type games as time has gone on, till now, when we have something that is very twitchy.

[KuroNyra]

LordKnightFandragon, on 16 January 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

Why cant we have something like that then? When all our weapons are pointing at the target we have locked on, our pipper changes to some other color to indicate were actually aimed properly?

Because some guys don't want to see there pinpoint convergence removed. You know "skilz" and others jokes argument.

[Burktross]

Metus regem, on 16 January 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

Why not make it an option, in the controll settings, kind of like how arm lock is? I would welcome the extra challenge, as I got board very quickly with CoD/Battlefeild/andclones, beacuse it was too easy, and did not require much skill...

I'd also like the option to decrease my cbill earnings.

[Rhent]

It might be what you want, the problem is that in the real world, weapon mounts do move and allow for conversion as they would in the future as well.

It is why when you pull the trigger and fire, the weapons are set to converge at that range. IF the rounds miss, you will watch your rounds splay out to the sides comically. If you are firing energy weapons you can watch them come to a point at the range of which you shot them because they hit their point of fire instantaneously.

Conversion is only instantaneous for all weapon systems when you are at very close range. The range in which Inner Sphere mechs need to be at to get kills to null out the clans range advantage.

Your arguments had some merit before clans, however after clans, especially with clans having only two weapons that do pin point damage, is a moot argument and would in fact buff clans a ridiculously huge amount now.

[LordKnightFandragon]

KuroNyra, on 16 January 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

Because some guys don't want to see there pinpoint convergence removed. You know "skilz" and others jokes argument.

I would happily trade in PP for a COF mechanic or anything to kinda break up mass damage shots and slow down the fire rates.

I would not want to have to follow 4 different reticules.....and then have to drive the mech...lolwut?

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

I don't want a full removal of alphastrikes, as alpha's have always been an intrigal part of Mechwarrior.

But, I do agree that PPFLD is a problem, and has ALWAYS been a problem, since Mechwarrior 1 on DOS. [load up on mlas, shoot the legs... huh, not much has changed in near 30 years.]

I understand the people who don't want this game to go "Too" simulator. I get it. BUT, having massed weapons that target singular locations at range is NOT good for the overall game. and it shortens TTK too much.

Spreading damage a little by having these variable "zones" of fire, could be interesting to at least try. I remember in closed beta, where convergence was actually a thing [there's a leftover to that with the "pinpoint" skill] and it was slightly delayed. There were some initial issues with the system that resulted in it's original removal, one of which being it was difficult for AC's to hit arms on smaller mechs, due to the way the tracking of the system worked.

I really think that what op proposes is a good idea, and should at least be considered.

[RedDragon]

Why make it so complicated? Just make it simple (and ironically, this is how they would do it in lore, too): Have a fixed convergence point that is adjustable by mouse wheel for "blind" shots, and an automatic convergence for the distance to your selected target.
This should be easy to implement and it will prevent pinpoint sniping to a degree (you have to know exactly how far your target is away). Further it will give an incentive for information warfare. When you can't lock a target, you have to guess the range.
It is not random, it is skill based, and it shouldn't mess with HSR, because the automatic convergence point is where the server knows the enemy to be, even if you don't see it on your screen.

[terrycloth]

And now ECM can even screw with direct fire weapons. Heehee. Well, it already does by denying target info.

You might want to have 'auto-converge to R-selected target' be a toggle, though. You're not always firing at that target.

[RedDragon]

Yes, that's what the mouse wheel-bound fixed convergence point is for. You have either this or the auto convergence on selected target.

[KuroNyra]

Flash Frame, on 16 January 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

I don't want a full removal of alphastrikes, as alpha's have always been an intrigal part of Mechwarrior.

But, I do agree that PPFLD is a problem, and has ALWAYS been a problem, since Mechwarrior 1 on DOS. [load up on mlas, shoot the legs... huh, not much has changed in near 30 years.]

I understand the people who don't want this game to go "Too" simulator. I get it. BUT, having massed weapons that target singular locations at range is NOT good for the overall game. and it shortens TTK too much.

Spreading damage a little by having these variable "zones" of fire, could be interesting to at least try. I remember in closed beta, where convergence was actually a thing [there's a leftover to that with the "pinpoint" skill] and it was slightly delayed. There were some initial issues with the system that resulted in it's original removal, one of which being it was difficult for AC's to hit arms on smaller mechs, due to the way the tracking of the system worked.

I really think that what op proposes is a good idea, and should at least be considered.

Alpha won't be removed by that, just use your head.

Alpha Strike aren't about shooting everything on the same place. It is just about shooting all your weapons at the same time. Nothing more.

http://www.sarna.net...ke_%28Tactic%29

Quote

An "alpha strike" is when a BattleMech attacks with all of its weapons at the same time. While extremely powerful, it dramatically raises the 'Mech's heat level, and after several successive alpha strikes most 'Mechs will shut down from overheating.

[albedozero]

my 2p on a subject that reminds me of tabletop RPGs (Cyperpunk 2020 Maximum Metal, for example)

Each weapon has a native recoil.
Each 'mech has a mass.

Firing too many weapons generates instability, compensated (partially or totally) by the mech's mass.
Be heavy enough and fire without worries. Be light and fire more carefully for accuracy.

Extras potential layers:
. endo steel versus std structure?
. new skills ? (notwithstanding the fact that the <del>proper</del> skill tree should be <del>reworked</del> created)
. quirks? (ie we do not want the variants <i>tailored</i> for a particular weapon not to be able to use it .. (AC/20 BJ to name one..)
. direct-fire weapons have a native dispersion, that might increase over range (LBX and SRMs would obviously not fall in there - or would they?). Moar skills to go with that.
. increase dispersion when on the move
. what is the effect of jumping with regards to dispersion and recoil?

All in all add a little randomness? (I know many would not like the idea :-) )

cheers

[Nightmare1]

Not this again.

Ever thought that perhaps there was a reason why it was ignored and kicked down to the archives?

I say no to this idea.

[Roughneck45]

This wouldn't really mitigate FLPP damage though, it would just limit the mechs that would be suited for it and you would get less diversity on the battlefield. So all the best mechs would have tight grouped weapons on one or both arms and then one torso section with weapons so both arms converge on the single torso. Basically anything without articulated arms would be reduced to crap tier.

Unless I have misinterpreted something from the OP.