37 replies to this topic

[Strikeshadow]

It's pretty simple to deal with LRM rain.

LRM boats must obtain their own targets except with the help of Narc or Tag from teammates. They can see the target on radar, but they must have Line of Sight to lock it, unless the target is Taged or Narc'd.

No more radar deprivation or retention.

Shorten the lock-on time to 1 sec for all mechs.

Make ECM ineffective closer than 400m or 600m if the LRM boat has BAP or clan probe.

LRMs become fire and forget.

This would also fix ECM ghost mechs PUGs grouping so poorly.

Edited by Strikeshadow, 19 January 2015 - 02:35 PM.

[JadeTimberwolf]

The way LRMs currently function (As well as the minimap) to me feels as if each Mech is equipped with a C3 Master/Slave. This does partially step away from Lore as Clan Mechs are benefiting from it as well but from my experience the game itself isn't heavy on the lore closeness. (not complaining just stating)

Edited by JadeTimberwolf, 15 January 2015 - 10:16 PM.

[Egomane]

JadeTimberwolf, on 15 January 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

The way LRMs currently function (As well as the minimap) to me feels as if each Mech is equipped with a C3 Master/Slave. This does partially step away from Lore as Clan Mechs are benefiting from it as well but from my experience the game itself isn't heavy on the lore closeness. (not complaining just stating)

LRMs always were capable of indirect firing without C3, TAG, NARC or other means of help. Special equipment had no role in it, except for maybe improving the indirect fire modifeiers or result. C3 for example, is pretty much useless for indirect firing LRMs.

All it ever needed in Battletech history, was a spotter. That could have been an airborne VToL some 5 kilometers away with an uninterupted line of sight, or a single infantry man, the last of his company, sitting somewhere in a bush. So there is no lore breaking anything in the current implementation.

[Thunder Child]

As per Egomane. C3 was actually a MAJOR equaliser between IS and Clan, because it allowed IS mechs to have Higher Accuracy at Longer Ranges, provided a C3 equipped buddy was close to the target. But, since we don't have a CoF, any sort of accuracy modifier has NO EFFECT in current MWO play.

As to "fixing" LRM Rain, LRMs are one of the least effective weapons in game as it is. But hey, if you want to make them even more so, I'd suggest we buff the hell out of Spread when they are fired with LoS, and Nerf the hell out of it when fired without.

If the Target is Narced or Tagged, LRM spread becomes what we have now. If it isn't, then your Indirect LRM5 is now dealing 1 damage each to 5 different mechs in the enemy Deathball (assuming they are all huddled up sniffing each others A****).

If you have an unobstructed LoS when firing, the Missiles become a CT-Seeking Deathblob (assuming the target doesn't break lock and disappear behind cover). If you lose LoS for any reason, the missiles fan out for "optimized chance to hit a moving target".

There ya go. Missiles are now nerfed..... uh, I mean, "fixed".

[VinJade]

the beauty about LRMs is that you do not need LOS to lock on the enemy.

they compared to other weapons the only thing LRMs actually got going for them is their indirect fire as there are weapons with longer reach and more hitting power so lets leave the LRMs alone.

[Kalimaster]

Once more we are back to beating the horse on LRM's. Another LRM post. Joining the untold mass of LRM posts.

[Strikeshadow]

Spotters need spotting equipment otherwise they cannot spot. A normal soldier cannot spot. A mech without spotting equipment cannot spot. Hence Narc and Tag.

Why? Because these LRMs are homing weapons and just "spotting" a target does not help if that target is moving. LRMs should be fire and forget homing missiles, unlike plain SRMs.

In other words, buff them as an individual weapon (fire and forget, instead of maintain lock and nerf ecm), but nerf the targeting by teammates.

Thus a missile boat would not sit in a safe spot raining LRMs, it would have to expose itself, obtain a lock, fire its missiles and then it could retreat without worrying about maintaining a lock.

The lock would stay once the missiles were fired and only AMS or blocking cover would stop them.

Edited by Strikeshadow, 17 January 2015 - 03:08 PM.

[JadeTimberwolf]

If I remember correctly the Devs did state they were going to try to stay close to the original design with variations where the TT to VG transition isn't necessarily within reason. After a reminder from other posters that C3 isn't exactly part of the LRM Indirect needs I double checked the rules. as things are now LRM Indirect (as well as the Minimap spoting of enemy Mechs) functions exactly like the TT rules. if a friendly Mech has line of sight to an enemy Mech, your Mech gains basic targeting info.

Again I see no need to apply a fix to the way LRM systems work. I have said elsewhere that I think AMS and ECM might be a little more powerful than they should but even those I don't think need fixing.

[Astarot]

I think the current problem we are having, it not so much as the LRMs themselves, as much as, almost every mech that can equip LRM does so, resulting in matches where if you get spotted, the sun is blotted out by the amount of missles heading in your direction, this results in the LRMs this results in many medium and lighter heavy mechs being alpha off the field because they don't want to play in a scout, or an super heavy armored mech.

The problem seems more then just the LRMs, I think it a slew of small problems that add to one big problem.

First, it very hard to disrupt being locked. Sure, ECM helps, but as soon as someone comes around with their ECM and counter's your's. So much for stopping that lock on that the enemy team has on you, and them dumping every LRM in your direction.

Aims are a bit weird. They are effective, but only in groups, they tend to waste a lot of ammo though destroying LRMs they are harmless as well.

I feel that more variety comes to when it comes to equipment in general so that it doesn't turn into a direct rock paper scissors match ups. Thus allow people to affect the battlefield in their own little ways, and not forcing them into cookie cutter builds so that they can compete with others.

[JadeTimberwolf]

Astarot, on 17 January 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

I think the current problem we are having, it not so much as the LRMs themselves, as much as, almost every mech that can equip LRM does so, resulting in matches where if you get spotted, the sun is blotted out by the amount of missles heading in your direction, this results in the LRMs this results in many medium and lighter heavy mechs being alpha off the field because they don't want to play in a scout, or an super heavy armored mech.

The problem seems more then just the LRMs, I think it a slew of small problems that add to one big problem.

First, it very hard to disrupt being locked. Sure, ECM helps, but as soon as someone comes around with their ECM and counter's your's. So much for stopping that lock on that the enemy team has on you, and them dumping every LRM in your direction.

Aims are a bit weird. They are effective, but only in groups, they tend to waste a lot of ammo though destroying LRMs they are harmless as well.

I feel that more variety comes to when it comes to equipment in general so that it doesn't turn into a direct rock paper scissors match ups. Thus allow people to affect the battlefield in their own little ways, and not forcing them into cookie cutter builds so that they can compete with others.

I know that in terms of what I have seen and heard form more Comp Clanners, LRMs are pretty much a joke weapon, I disagree with this opinion but certain Mech designs are meant to house LRMs and others are not (Timber Wolf and Catapult should house some kind of missile system except specific variants, Firestarters and Novas are not). That is just my opinion. The few times I have faced against Clans in the first few weeks of CW I saw little to no LRM rain, however against IS it is common place

I don't mind an ECM acting as an ECCM as well it adds more dynamic tactics in my opinion and as for the AMS I think it's too accurate, it should be shooting more ammo to the wind letting one or two missiles through for each volley of 5 (mind you I mount 3 of these on my Kit Fox).

[VinJade]

@JadeTimberwolf
I must disagree with you, the ECM needs to be weakened not become more powerful, as it is the ECM does things that the BT counterpart does not do and that gives it the Phantom Mech ability and hiding everything and thats not how it works.

as to the topic at hand, the LRMs are weak compared to other weapons and only thing they have going for them is what has already been covered.

[IraqiWalker]

Strikeshadow, on 17 January 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

Spotters need spotting equipment otherwise they cannot spot. A normal soldier cannot spot. A mech without spotting equipment cannot spot. Hence Narc and Tag.

It's called radio, and shared target information. Also, NARC and TAG were only there to improve guidance, not make locking on happen.

Strikeshadow, on 17 January 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

Why? Because these LRMs are homing weapons and just "spotting" a target does not help if that target is moving. LRMs should be fire and forget homing missiles, unlike plain SRMs.

In other words, buff them as an individual weapon (fire and forget, instead of maintain lock and nerf ecm), but nerf the targeting by teammates.

Thus a missile boat would not sit in a safe spot raining LRMs, it would have to expose itself, obtain a lock, fire its missiles and then it could retreat without worrying about maintaining a lock.

The lock would stay once the missiles were fired and only AMS or blocking cover would stop them.

This whole thing is based on the premise that LRMs are an overpowered weapon, in need of fixing. LRMs are possibly the weakest weapon in the game, aside from flamers. Abysmal projectile speeds, absolutely dependent on the actions of the target rather than the skill of the user (skill helps a bit, but no other weapon benefits less from user skill than LRMs. On the other hand, it really benefits from the target making stupid moves), too heavy to be effective (too much tonnage needs to be dedicated to the launchers, and the ammo), and has too many counters, keeping it in check.

LRMs are fine where they are right now. There are at least 600 "Nerf LRMs" threads that have preceded this one, and so far, the end result has been that LRMs don't need to be touched right now. They are a good starter weapon, and almost absolutely ineffective in high tier play.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 17 January 2015 - 07:50 PM.

[Strikeshadow]

The only thing that I noticed in the posts, which I did not note, was that clan LRMs are weaker because they fire in essentially a chain fire mode which spreads the damage too much.

Both IS and Clan LRMs should fire in the same manner.

ECM is way too powerful and my OP notes how it should work and how LRMs should work. Perhaps you could fire against targets seen by non-narc/tag teammates, but if the mech moved before your missiles land they should miss.

[IraqiWalker]

Strikeshadow, on 17 January 2015 - 07:57 PM, said:

The only thing that I noticed in the posts, which I did not note, was that clan LRMs are weaker because they fire in essentially a chain fire mode which spreads the damage too much.

Both IS and Clan LRMs should fire in the same manner.

ECM is way too powerful and my OP notes how it should work and how LRMs should work. Perhaps you could fire against targets seen by non-narc/tag teammates, but if the mech moved before your missiles land they should miss.

Nope. Clan LRMs should not fire like IS LRMs. Otherwise they would just be objectively better in every respect. Right now the trade off is that they weight less, and take less space, but they fire in stream mode, making countering them easier.

Make them similar, and you break balance HARD.

[Strikeshadow]

IraqiWalker, on 17 January 2015 - 07:49 PM, said:

It's called radio, and shared target information. Also, NARC and TAG were only there to improve guidance, not make locking on happen.

Radio doesn't give real-time-lock-on targeting information. You are just flat wrong here.

IraqiWalker, on 17 January 2015 - 07:49 PM, said:

This whole thing is based on the premise that LRMs are an overpowered weapon, in need of fixing. LRMs are possibly the weakest weapon in the game, aside from flamers. Abysmal projectile speeds, absolutely dependent on the actions of the target rather than the skill of the user (skill helps a bit, but no other weapon benefits less from user skill than LRMs. On the other hand, it really benefits from the target making stupid moves), too heavy to be effective (too much tonnage needs to be dedicated to the launchers, and the ammo), and has too many counters, keeping it in check.

LRMs are fine where they are right now. There are at least 600 "Nerf LRMs" threads that have preceded this one, and so far, the end result has been that LRMs don't need to be touched right now. They are a good starter weapon, and almost absolutely ineffective in high tier play.

If you read my post, it doesn't advocate LRM nerfs. Instead it advocates LRM changes that will make them more useful and realistic, plus add some skill to using them.

IraqiWalker, on 17 January 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

Nope. Clan LRMs should not fire like IS LRMs. Otherwise they would just be objectively better in every respect. Right now the trade off is that they weight less, and take less space, but they fire in stream mode, making countering them easier.

Make them similar, and you break balance HARD.

Reduce their damage or change the hardpoints then.

Edited by Strikeshadow, 17 January 2015 - 08:10 PM.

[JadeTimberwolf]

VinJade, on 17 January 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

@JadeTimberwolf
I must disagree with you, the ECM needs to be weakened not become more powerful, as it is the ECM does things that the BT counterpart does not do and that gives it the Phantom Mech ability and hiding everything and thats not how it works.

as to the topic at hand, the LRMs are weak compared to other weapons and only thing they have going for them is what has already been covered.

Never said anything about making them more powerful, I said that the way they currently function gives both ECM and ECCM functions meaning that they reduce radar (all be it a bit on the powerful side as you noted with phantom Mech status) but they also have the ability to counter enemy ECM.

IraqiWalker, on 17 January 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

Nope. Clan LRMs should not fire like IS LRMs. Otherwise they would just be objectively better in every respect. Right now the trade off is that they weight less, and take less space, but they fire in stream mode, making countering them easier.

Make them similar, and you break balance HARD.

Your right they shouldn't fire like IS LRMs, they should have full effectiveness within IS LRM minimum range and otherwise fire the same way. Yes that means they would be objectively better in every respect, but that is how they are meant to be (as per TT rules).

[IraqiWalker]

Strikeshadow, on 17 January 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

Radio doesn't give real-time-lock-on targeting information. You are just flat wrong here.

Good god, upgrade your processor. I said Radio AND shared targeting information. Something that these mechs can do. The basic communication system used here allows a mech to perfectly relay the coordinates of the target, along with it's condition, and equipment. Notice how COORDINATES is in there? That's with the basic communication system used by the mechs in this game.

Strikeshadow, on 17 January 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

If you read my post, it doesn't advocate LRM nerfs. Instead it advocates LRM changes that will make them more useful and realistic, plus add some skill to using them.

By forcing an indirect fire weapon to compete with direct fire weapons? Call it whatever you want, it still effectively is a nerf.

Strikeshadow, on 17 January 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

Reduce their damage or change the hardpoints then.

Or, you know, leave them as is. Since they are functioning well. They are small, and light, but they can be countered easier. While the IS ones are heavier, and bigger, but are much harder to counter. This is what is usually called "balance"

JadeTimberwolf, on 17 January 2015 - 08:09 PM, said:

Your right they shouldn't fire like IS LRMs, they should have full effectiveness within IS LRM minimum range and otherwise fire the same way. Yes that means they would be objectively better in every respect, but that is how they are meant to be (as per TT rules).

Yep, and for that I have one sentence to say "For the sake of BALANCE, Core Rule Ignore!". We don't have BV matching here. We don't have uneven teams, where we can compensate for the clan force having better tech by fielding more mechs. So the only way to do it, is by finding mechanical ways to make the weapons closer in terms of balance.

TT had it's own flaws and problems, and many of them show here, with how it falls apart in a real-time implementation, instead of a turn-by-turn one.

[Strikeshadow]

IraqiWalker, on 17 January 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

Good god, upgrade your processor. I said Radio AND shared targeting information. Something that these mechs can do. The basic communication system used here allows a mech to perfectly relay the coordinates of the target, along with it's condition, and equipment. Notice how COORDINATES is in there? That's with the basic communication system used by the mechs in this game.

Wow, ignorant fool, how do you expect them to share targeting information, telekinesis? They use the radio. If they had satellite coverage they would not need teammates to give them targeting information. Did you even graduate from elementary school?

[JadeTimberwolf]

IraqiWalker, on 17 January 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

Yep, and for that I have one sentence to say "For the sake of BALANCE, Core Rule Ignore!". We don't have BV matching here. We don't have uneven teams, where we can compensate for the clan force having better tech by fielding more mechs. So the only way to do it, is by finding mechanical ways to make the weapons closer in terms of balance.

TT had it's own flaws and problems, and many of them show here, with how it falls apart in a real-time implementation, instead of a turn-by-turn one.

Yet IS Mechs gain quirks for particular weapon systems (don't use IS Mechs so don't know all the quirks) on top of the lowering of Clan Tech capability which over-balance the scales making yet still unbalanced technology just in the opposite direction.

Strikeshadow, on 17 January 2015 - 09:07 PM, said:

Wow, ignorant fool, how do you expect them to share targeting information, telekinesis? They use the radio. If they had satellite coverage they would not need teammates to give them targeting information. Did you even graduate from elementary school?

There is basic target information shared among ally units. Advanced targeting systems such as C3 and C3i serve to improve targeting capabilities (which in TT means that LRMs, Arrow IV, and other such weapons) have lower spread/deviation.

Edited by JadeTimberwolf, 17 January 2015 - 09:44 PM.

[Knightshadowsong]

The only thing I don't like about LRM's are the LRM-60 and TAG load out. speacally with someone just raining #ell on you and Never losing the lock even if your out of LOS, I think if TAG is involved, LRM damage needs to be half as much as with a normal lock.