115 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

I just wonder why we do not have this system and have the big heat treshold stuff.

In my opinion 30fixed heattreshold + true DHS, the entire game would be less PPFLD except 2 gauss 2 (ER)PPC.

I am not in MWO since the beginning, so what caused the system we have now?
Or what was flawed with the 30 heat true DHS to not be used?

[Blue Boutique]

The Awesome with 20 DHS is why. 3 PPC shots then 2 and another 2 which made it a long ranged 70 front loaded damage machine inside 10 seconds.

Edited by Blue Boutique, 16 January 2015 - 03:15 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Ill copy the reply i put in another thread:

Im really not a fan of the whole 30 heat cap idea for 2 reasons:

It utterly ruins any heavy/assault mechs that do not run ballistics (i.e. all clan ones for a start, other than the DW of course) as with a 30 point of heat max alpha the ability to carry lots of energy weapons is pointless since you cannot fire them, which leads me to my second point:

The idea stems from TT where the heat cap is 30, but totally fails to take into account that heat in TT is applied at the END of the turn, AFTER all cooling is taken into account – i.e. in TT a mech can fire 4 PPCs and as long as it has 20 DHS its heat will be zero, no bad things will happen at all. What would happen if you fired 4 PPCs in MWO with a 30 heat cap and 20 DHS, even with no ghost heat? You’d shut down and get rinsed.

The only way I see that change not making Ballistics (AC5/Gauss) COMPLETELY dominate (and thus IS pretty much completely dominate) would be a complete radical change to the way weapons generate heat, i.e. you fire a PPC and it generates 1 heat per second for 10 seconds, not 10 upfront heat.

[Blood Rose]

Actually this idea is a good one and has cropped up before.

In TT the firing takes place over a period of 10 seconds. This means that weapons are stagger fired to avoid overheating and there are gaps in between the shots where the waste heat is dissipated.

[Widowmaker1981]

Blood Rose, on 16 January 2015 - 04:08 AM, said:

Actually this idea is a good one and has cropped up before.

In TT the firing takes place over a period of 10 seconds. This means that weapons are stagger fired to avoid overheating and there are gaps in between the shots where the waste heat is dissipated.

What about the fact that it is effectively a giganerf to energy boats and would make it a game of bring ballistics or go home?

[LordKnightFandragon]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 January 2015 - 04:04 AM, said:

Ill copy the reply i put in another thread:

Im really not a fan of the whole 30 heat cap idea for 2 reasons:

It utterly ruins any heavy/assault mechs that do not run ballistics (i.e. all clan ones for a start, other than the DW of course) as with a 30 point of heat max alpha the ability to carry lots of energy weapons is pointless since you cannot fire them, which leads me to my second point:

The idea stems from TT where the heat cap is 30, but totally fails to take into account that heat in TT is applied at the END of the turn, AFTER all cooling is taken into account – i.e. in TT a mech can fire 4 PPCs and as long as it has 20 DHS its heat will be zero, no bad things will happen at all. What would happen if you fired 4 PPCs in MWO with a 30 heat cap and 20 DHS, even with no ghost heat? You’d shut down and get rinsed.

The only way I see that change not making Ballistics (AC5/Gauss) COMPLETELY dominate (and thus IS pretty much completely dominate) would be a complete radical change to the way weapons generate heat, i.e. you fire a PPC and it generates 1 heat per second for 10 seconds, not 10 upfront heat.

Its not so pointless to carry that mass of energy weapons if you chain fire. I personally feel, if we get a lower heat cap, that it should be 50 or maybe 60. Then you can fire a good portion of weapons, and a DW, as long as he Chain fires or fires in small groups, he can fire of all his weapons. It wont be a 90pt alpha all at once, but if he spaces his shots, like it should be, he would do just fine.

Pair it along side true 2.0s, giving him sufficient coolant between bursts, he would be able to fire for alot longer then a mech with like 3 guns.

Also, increase the cool down on weapons by like a second or so for all weapons.

With longer weapon cooldowns, a fixed 50-60pt heat scale, true 2.0s and heat penalties, a Mech like a DW would actually kinda be a monster. Carrying 8 guns is like a non stop wall of fire. We could either seriously lessen Ghost heat at that point, or remove it, idk. I kinda think at least lessen it a bunch. Still feel it actually would then play more of a part in persuading people to not want to fire massive alphas, as firing many weapons together would still gain significant heat.

Widowmaker1981, on 16 January 2015 - 04:11 AM, said:

What about the fact that it is effectively a giganerf to energy boats and would make it a game of bring ballistics or go home?

On a 30pt heat scale, losing heat like we do now, it prolly would be. On a much higher heat scale, and if we put in normal ammo levels for ballistics, you chain fire and use some fire discipline on your energy weapons and fire ballistics, well, I guess mostly non-stop until ur bins run dry.

I suppose, no matter the heat changes, people will always strive to find the best way to bring the biggest alpha, but if we can get a system to seriously lessen it, then id call that atleast a mini-win.

[Lily from animove]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 January 2015 - 04:04 AM, said:

Ill copy the reply i put in another thread:

Im really not a fan of the whole 30 heat cap idea for 2 reasons:

It utterly ruins any heavy/assault mechs that do not run ballistics (i.e. all clan ones for a start, other than the DW of course) as with a 30 point of heat max alpha the ability to carry lots of energy weapons is pointless since you cannot fire them, which leads me to my second point:

The idea stems from TT where the heat cap is 30, but totally fails to take into account that heat in TT is applied at the END of the turn, AFTER all cooling is taken into account – i.e. in TT a mech can fire 4 PPCs and as long as it has 20 DHS its heat will be zero, no bad things will happen at all. What would happen if you fired 4 PPCs in MWO with a 30 heat cap and 20 DHS, even with no ghost heat? You’d shut down and get rinsed.

The only way I see that change not making Ballistics (AC5/Gauss) COMPLETELY dominate (and thus IS pretty much completely dominate) would be a complete radical change to the way weapons generate heat, i.e. you fire a PPC and it generates 1 heat per second for 10 seconds, not 10 upfront heat.

that is not true by mechanics, yes yu can not alpha them anymore, but you still have a way better cooling meaning you can still fire them all sequentially. and so the 30 heat treshold with true DHS will not ruin your DPS it will just ensure you can not make the big alphastrikes.

why do you think do we have the current laservomit meta? because 4 CERMl + 2 LPL = 54 dmag for 44 dmg. and you can with the current system fire this twice or actually nearly 3x with a maxed TBR chassis. That is why this meta totally exists, because the heat treshold allows this epic over the top alphas.

imagine now you had only 30 heattreshold. you would overheat but you can still fire them all in sequences. And your DWF with 20DHS will because of the high cooling be a better mech by regenerating heat better and so allowing to shoot al his Eneergyweapons more often than other builds. So no its not breakign this mech, its just altering the PPFLD playstyle. And this did not exist in TT becaue there were no alphas in TT, since it is a "round" containign a timeframe of not one mouseclick. and within this frame your pilot may not fire all the PPC's at the same time, he may have shot two at time 0 and two at 6 seconds.

so your reflection of the TT alpha is not true in MWO.

because this woudl happen in MWO:

You fire 2 PPC's at time 0 you heat up to 30heat, lotsa "high heat" noise in the cockpit) after you regenerated 15 heat you Could fire third PPC and after again 15 another PPC.

And in the TT a few mechs were never able to fire all guns constantly, think Nova, if you now fire all CERML lasers without ghostheat. you reach heatcap, and the cooldown process takes ages, longer than the TT Nova would need to be able to fire again. So the current MWO implementation does not reflect the TT.

Widowmaker1981, on 16 January 2015 - 04:11 AM, said:

What about the fact that it is effectively a giganerf to energy boats and would make it a game of bring ballistics or go home?

its not the giganerf you make it, its also a gigabuff, because you cool down a lot faster. it just makes the playstyle a lot less like: Pop out fire all the laz0rs, pop back into cover. becaue now laserboats need a sustained playstyle to fire. or you go with a bit less alphasize for some more DHS and pop out more often, because you can now pop out a lot more often.

And what ballistcis? AC5's are in fact already those coninuous firing weapons, so they are then similar to lasers. It's not a nerf, it is a change, it would switch playstyle bu not make AC's OP. It would reduce our initial dps but heavily increase your sustained dps.

[627]

you can't just cap at 30 and be done, you have to rebuild the whole heat system around that.

The question is, what do you want to achieve?

at some point, Paul said there will not be heat neutral mechs because... reasons. In TT it is possible to run heat neutral mechs. Do we want that here?

Then comes the 10 second cooldown, our weapons fire much faster... are we still want heat neutral builds, even with faster recycle?

And as last bit, evey mech should be able to fire his weapons as alpha and don't overheat. This is possible in TT bu not in MWO, even now.

You can change the heat management to a cap of 30, there where tons of suggestions for. But you have to actually want to live with that system.

[Widowmaker1981]

Lily from animove, on 16 January 2015 - 04:52 AM, said:

that is not true by mechanics, yes yu can not alpha them anymore, but you still have a way better cooling meaning you can still fire them all sequentially. and so the 30 heat treshold with true DHS will not ruin your DPS it will just ensure you can not make the big alphastrikes.

why do you think do we have the current laservomit meta? because 4 CERMl + 2 LPL = 54 dmag for 44 dmg. and you can with the current system fire this twice or actually nearly 3x with a maxed TBR chassis. That is why this meta totally exists, because the heat treshold allows this epic over the top alphas.

imagine now you had only 30 heattreshold. you would overheat but you can still fire them all in sequences. And your DWF with 20DHS will because of the high cooling be a better mech by regenerating heat better and so allowing to shoot al his Eneergyweapons more often than other builds. So no its not breakign this mech, its just altering the PPFLD playstyle. And this did not exist in TT becaue there were no alphas in TT, since it is a "round" containign a timeframe of not one mouseclick. and within this frame your pilot may not fire all the PPC's at the same time, he may have shot two at time 0 and two at 6 seconds.

so your reflection of the TT alpha is not true in MWO.

because this woudl happen in MWO:

You fire 2 PPC's at time 0 you heat up to 30heat, lotsa "high heat" noise in the cockpit) after you regenerated 15 heat you Could fire third PPC and after again 15 another PPC.

And in the TT a few mechs were never able to fire all guns constantly, think Nova, if you now fire all CERML lasers without ghostheat. you reach heatcap, and the cooldown process takes ages, longer than the TT Nova would need to be able to fire again. So the current MWO implementation does not reflect the TT.



its not the giganerf you make it, its also a gigabuff, because you cool down a lot faster. it just makes the playstyle a lot less like: Pop out fire all the laz0rs, pop back into cover. becaue now laserboats need a sustained playstyle to fire. or you go with a bit less alphasize for some more DHS and pop out more often, because you can now pop out a lot more often.

And what ballistcis? AC5's are in fact already those coninuous firing weapons, so they are then similar to lasers. It's not a nerf, it is a change, it would switch playstyle bu not make AC's OP. It would reduce our initial dps but heavily increase your sustained dps.

Right now people either alpha and twist/hide to reduce exposure or spam AC5 fire to cause screenshake while damaging as both reduce incoming damage below outgoing - which you MUST aim to do or you will simply die all the time. If Lasers could not alpha, but only dps - you have the choice of firing guns that do not affect your opponents aim or guns that do. Where is the choice? Youd have to bring AC5s, UAC5s or 2xGauss or lose (oversimplified, but true)

It might work, if screenshake was removed from ACs.

[Lily from animove]

LordKnightFandragon, on 16 January 2015 - 04:49 AM, said:

Its not so pointless to carry that mass of energy weapons if you chain fire. I personally feel, if we get a lower heat cap, that it should be 50 or maybe 60. Then you can fire a good portion of weapons, and a DW, as long as he Chain fires or fires in small groups, he can fire of all his weapons. It wont be a 90pt alpha all at once, but if he spaces his shots, like it should be, he would do just fine.

Pair it along side true 2.0s, giving him sufficient coolant between bursts, he would be able to fire for alot longer then a mech with like 3 guns.

Also, increase the cool down on weapons by like a second or so for all weapons.

With longer weapon cooldowns, a fixed 50-60pt heat scale, true 2.0s and heat penalties, a Mech like a DW would actually kinda be a monster. Carrying 8 guns is like a non stop wall of fire. We could either seriously lessen Ghost heat at that point, or remove it, idk. I kinda think at least lessen it a bunch. Still feel it actually would then play more of a part in persuading people to not want to fire massive alphas, as firing many weapons together would still gain significant heat.



On a 30pt heat scale, losing heat like we do now, it prolly would be. On a much higher heat scale, and if we put in normal ammo levels for ballistics, you chain fire and use some fire discipline on your energy weapons and fire ballistics, well, I guess mostly non-stop until ur bins run dry.

I suppose, no matter the heat changes, people will always strive to find the best way to bring the biggest alpha, but if we can get a system to seriously lessen it, then id call that atleast a mini-win.

No it would not, and did you realised that currently the heatscale on a 20DHS Direwolf already is 64, fully mastered it is amazing 76.8.

and that sytsem is what allows the ridiculous stupid high alpha spams, even with ghostheat. A heatcap at 30 would massively reduce the amount of simultaneaous fired weapons, (not even 2ERPPC + any ballistcis would work without overheating). And by increasing the heatsink values, you change from FLD alphas to stretched dps, this solves a laod of porblems MWO currently has. it owuld also balance some clan vs IS things because a hunchbakc cna fire more MEdiums lasers at once compared to a clanmech. and so the damage value differences get equalised a bit more. But ghostheta kicking in makes the efficient playstyle not going to trigger ghostheat in nearly all cases.

with 30 threshold, there are NO BIG ALPHAS. otherwis show me the big alphas? 2 gauss. or 2 AC 20 is the biggest PPFLD alpha you cna bring. 2 Gauss + 1 PPC is the highest alpha you could bring for range being 45/30 dmg. and 2 AC20 + a bit Energyststained fire is what you could bring into cqc alphaing, being maybe around 70, but then very restricted to CQC.
And why? because ballistics have tonnage as a counterpart to prevent braindead high alphaspams. And when you dedicate tonnage into ballistics and support this siwht some lasers you will have some initial higher dps, but soon reahcing heatcap will make you have less sustained dps than a laserboat since the laserboat will have the tonnage a ballistic uses put in DHS.

and the awesome example with the doubled armor we have nowdays would not make it an issue anymore.
Said awesome could now fire 3 PPC's again, (but atm we have higher alpha builds anyways) So said awesome is no worse than some of the monsters we already have, in fact its below them.

And with the treshold change to 30, PGI would revert some quirks and remove -Xheat generation and could buff heatdissipation on those builds, because they could vioate the heat blockade to prevent alpha spams.

it would als to some degree solve the issue of the low ttk's because damage has to be streched over time now.

Widowmaker1981, on 16 January 2015 - 05:02 AM, said:

Right now people either alpha and twist/hide to reduce exposure or spam AC5 fire to cause screenshake while damaging as both reduce incoming damage below outgoing - which you MUST aim to do or you will simply die all the time. If Lasers could not alpha, but only dps - you have the choice of firing guns that do not affect your opponents aim or guns that do. Where is the choice? Youd have to bring AC5s, UAC5s or 2xGauss or lose (oversimplified, but true)

It might work, if screenshake was removed from ACs.

how many lasers and DHS can i bring for the tonnage of those AC5's? you will have more sustained dps with a laserbuild after that change than before. because now you have initial punch but not followed punch. yes maybe screenshake needs a minor tweak as well.

Edited by Lily from animove, 16 January 2015 - 05:12 AM.

[IronLichRich]

You would have to redesign the heat system if you want to put a hard heat cap of 30.


If you're talking TT, remember that on a mech without damage and 10 DHS, you have to produce 25 heat to start taking penalties.

Also, a heat cap of 30 would be boring and basically eliminate energy weapons from the ppfld plan, but everone would go back to gauss/ inner sphere acs.

The hard heat cap on that 20 dhs whale in tt is actually 70 before a forced shutdown don't forget

Edited by IronLichRich, 16 January 2015 - 05:25 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Lily from animove, on 16 January 2015 - 05:08 AM, said:

how many lasers and DHS can i bring for the tonnage of those AC5's? you will have more sustained dps with a laserbuild after that change than before. because now you have initial punch but not followed punch. yes maybe screenshake needs a minor tweak as well.

And, once you have removed screenshake from ACs (which you would have to or lasers simply would have no chance of competing against the shake) you have now normalised all the things and made the game vanilla point your mech at the enemy and hold down ze fire key, no defensive twisting as you need to keep firing.

I have no problem with the alphas that exist right now and do not think they need removing. PPFLD is limited to 40ish points and the huge laservomit alphas can be spread all over the place by twisting and SRMs WILL spread all over the place - the burden of spreading the laser damage about is on the target but that is fine.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 16 January 2015 - 05:19 AM.

[Lily from animove]

IronLichRich, on 16 January 2015 - 05:12 AM, said:

You would have to redesign the heat system if you want to put a hard heat cap of 30.


If you're talking TT, remember that on a mech without damage and 10 DHS, you have to produce 25 heat to start taking penalties.

but right now you can have up to 70 heat and still no penalties.

I mena see the game currently is the following: you have a ressource heat, this heat is cosnuemd for damage.

we have a lot ressource at the start, and a slow generation past this. This creates the ability to fire all the superhigh (PP)FLD, especially in synergy with the cold Ballistics. Think of the 8CERL 2 Gauss wolf.

he new system will drastically reduce the maximum ressource you can store, but grants you a lot more ressource generation. And so you have to stay in battle to constantly pull out damage, or you waste generated ressource not being able to be stored. But the new system allows you to put out more damage and longer when you fully keep taking from your ressource being generated.

It would just counter the initual alphas. and furthermore someone cna not easily mix B and E for superalphas, beause thats capped by heat, he can still bring both for good sustained fire, yet will have a more balanced loadout by having less generated ressource. But also a build consuming less ressources.

Widowmaker1981, on 16 January 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

And, once you have removed screenshake from ACs (which you would have to or lasers simply would have no chance of competing against the shake) you have now normalised all the things and made the game vanilla point your mech at the enemy and hold down ze fire key, no defensive twisting as you need to keep firing.

I have no problem with the alphas that exist right now and do not think they need removing. PPFLD is limited to 40ish points and the huge laservomit alphas can be spread all over the place by twisting and SRMs WILL spread all over the place - the burden of spreading the laser damage about is on the target but that is fine.

PP alphas at 40ish? LOL no its not.
and no its not a hold down the fire and key, because you still have weaponscooldown, and the current , pop, press mousebutton, pop back, is not much more "complex" then your so simply told (hold the firebutton). because when you do the hold the firebutton style, you will horribly overheat wiht a 30 treshold only.

mechs with many E hardpints will still be: fire 6 laz0rs, twist and wait for heat to go down, fire all laz0rs.
But youc an still also choose the sustained firemethod. yes big weapon platforms ike the DW would be very much continious firing mechs, but the DWF is like that anyways in the UAC 5 build, and its twisting abilities are so bad that twisting vs opponents with aim is pointles anways.

Edited by Lily from animove, 16 January 2015 - 05:28 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Lily from animove, on 16 January 2015 - 05:22 AM, said:

but right now you can have up to 70 heat and still no penalties.

I mena see the game currently is the following: you have a ressource heat, this heat is cosnuemd for damage.

we have a lot ressource at the start, and a slow generation past this. This creates the ability to fire all the superhigh (PP)FLD, especially in synergy with the cold Ballistics. Think of the 8CERL 2 Gauss wolf.

he new system will drastically reduce the maximum ressource you can store, but grants you a lot more ressource generation. And so you have to stay in battle to constantly pull out damage, or you waste generated ressource not being able to be stored. But the new system allows you to put out more damage and longer when you fully keep taking from your ressource being generated.

It would just counter the initual alphas. and furthermore someone cna not easily mix B and E for superalphas, beause thats capped by heat, he can still bring both for good sustained fire, yet will have a more balanced loadout by having less generated ressource. But also a build consuming less ressources.





PP alphas at 40ish? LOL no its not.
and no its not a hold down the fire and key, because you still have weaponscooldown, and the current , pop, press mousebutton, pop back, is not much more "complex" then your so simply told (hold the firebutton). because when you do the hold the firebutton style, you will horribly overheat wiht a 30 treshold only.

mechs with many E hardpints will still be: fire 6 laz0rs, twist and wait for heat to go down, fire all laz0rs.
But youc an still also choose the sustained firemethod. yes big weapon platforms ike the DW would be very much continious firing mechs, but the DWF is like that anyways in the UAC 5 build, and its twisting abilities are so bad that twisting vs opponents with aim is pointles anways.

After thinking about it my point is that all the builds will be forced to expose themselves for a much greater length of time to do damage, which means you will take return damage much more often / more return damage, lessening the ability to be a hero and carry hard. Which is what i am always aiming to do..

And (outside of the whale and crab) what can do a PPFLD alpha bigger than 40? Lasers do not count, they are not FLD. SRMs do not count, they are not PP... The only PPFLD weapons in the game are Gauss Rifles, IS Autocannons and PPCs.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 16 January 2015 - 06:18 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 January 2015 - 06:15 AM, said:

After thinking about it my point is that all the builds will be forced to expose themselves for a much greater length of time to do damage, which means you will take return damage much more often / more return damage, lessening the ability to be a hero and carry hard. Which is what i am always aiming to do..

And (outside of the whale and crab) what can do a PPFLD alpha bigger than 40? Lasers do not count, they are not FLD. SRMs do not count, they are not PP... The only PPFLD weapons in the game are Gauss Rifles, IS Autocannons and PPCs.

And yet the lasrvomit builds and their alpohas are the meta, because even with around 70+ alphas you will still apply more dmg to a single section than most of the PPFLD builds (unless its a light mech). and thats why the high alserbuilds are an issue.

And no you are not supposed to be a one mech hero show, this only works in Pugs with elo differences, otherwise your opponent would with current systems also cripple you as much as you him. Just that we currently have a whack a mole style of gameplay.

the new system will reward positioning and formation attacks a lot more, because a single mech coming aroudn a corder is not instantly dead when 3 alpha at him. before his 2 comrades come around the corner too. from which the second one may die in the second alpha burst they all do, because heattresholds alllow this seond alpha easily as well.

Edited by Lily from animove, 16 January 2015 - 06:24 AM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I'm all for reducing weapon impulse and heat capacity, with dissipation increased.

And forgetting Heat Scale (Ghost Heat) and quirks for a moment, a set cap of 30 will not hurt Energy boats if dissipation is scaled to our rate of fire, it would be very tight with our hot maps but it still wouldn't put them at a disadvantage.

Looking at two classic Energy boats, with MWO stats, the HBK-4P can still fire 7 MLs together at 28 heat for 35 damage. The Nova-Prime can fire five ERMLs at 30 Heat for 35 damage.

But we might need to consider having SHS dissipation a 0.2 and DHS dissipation at 0.4 with a reduced Heat Cap, which shouldn't be much of a problem keeping Heat Scale Penalties for outlier problem builds.

And there is an existing system that is currently switched off that can be used to reign in Gauss + [ER]PPC as necessary, so I say lets at least test out a lower heat cap with higher dissipation before disregarding such tweaks.

[kapusta11]

A couple of points:

• Heat system is not supposed to keep alpha strikes in check, its role is to make energy and ballistic weapons even in tonnage and crit space by forcing players to carry enough heatsinks.
  
• The root of the problem of alpha strikes is lack of any kind of mechanic that replaces hit allocation (recoil/convergence/forced chaifire/anything).
  
• You cant fix one with the other because а) one (heat system) is already flawed because of low dissipation and b ) you'll create convoluted relations between variables, if you're going to balance alphas with heat, energy heavy builds will suffer more than missile or ballistic ones let alone Dual Gauss and Heavy Gauss builds that produce only 2 pts of heat per gun.
  
• With proper heat system BUT without some sort of hit allocation mechanic (relax people, I'm against RNG stuff in FPS game myself) energy mechs would be indeed OP.
  
• In TT you allocate each shot randomly so you don't hit single spot with all your weapons, you can simulate that in FPS game if you force players to fire each of their weapon individualy and make them pass an "accuracy" check (forced chainfire) but this system has it's flaws as people will gravitate towards 2-3 hard hitting weapons rather than a bunch of medium lasers for example.
  Spoiler

  There's a thread currently active where a guy suggested to assign every weapon its own crosshair which is in fact an overcomplicated forced chainfire as there is no point to fire all your weapons at once when most of them miss anyways.
  The ideal, non RNG based, solution would be to cap damage around the most heavy hitting weapon with the most efficient damage delivery mechanic (FLD), i.e. AC20 and thus 20, the point of this is to allow weapons with lower damage to be grouped and rival those heavy hitting ones. Then you need to account other weapon's mechanics like laser's one which is slightly worse and thus damage cap for this type of weapons should be slightly increased, 25 for example, Same goes for missiles as they spread damage as well. What this all mean in practice: people would just split current 30-50 alphas in two shots but this will make hitting one spot all the time (and consistency plays a big part here) harder, more demanding in terms of player's accuracy and as the result will increase TTK, then we can go back to TT armor values, or not, depends on whiners, as always .

Edited by kapusta11, 16 January 2015 - 08:19 AM.

[Kain Demos]

627, on 16 January 2015 - 04:55 AM, said:

at some point, Paul said there will not be heat neutral mechs because... reasons. In TT it is possible to run heat neutral mechs. Do we want that here?

There are a few builds that achieve this, I hope he stays in the dark about them.

[Lily from animove]

kapusta11, on 16 January 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

A couple of points:

• Heat system is not supposed to keep alpha strikes in check, its role is to make energy and ballistic weapons even in tonnage and crit space by forcing players to carry enough heatsinks.

if so we would not have ghostheat

kapusta11, on 16 January 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

• The root of the problem of alpha strikes is lack of any kind of mechanic that replaces hit allocation (recoil/convergence/forced chaifire/anything).

true, but what you wanna do? Cone of fire is the only thing, convergence would fail by beign an nline game with serversided mechanics.

kapusta11, on 16 January 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

• You cant fix one with the other because а) one (heat system) is already flawed because of low dissipation and b ) you'll create convoluted relations between variables, if you're going to balance alphas with heat, energy heavy builds will suffer more than missile or ballistic ones let alone Dual Gauss and Heavy Gauss builds that produce only 2 pts of heat per gun.

I don't think so, the apha ptential will suffer, not the damage output at all, and since lasers are meta, would even a small nerf hurt? ther eis a reason why you see those energy boas everywhere. it is not bad if energy heavy builds suffer a bit as long as it does not render them useless, they still get more sustained pds in reverse.

kapusta11, on 16 January 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

• With proper heat system BUT without some sort of hit allocation mechanic (relax people, I'm against RNG stuff in FPS game myself) energy mechs would be indeed OP.

and this is why lasers are beamduration weapons and not instant fired like in older MW games, because they then would be kinda OP.

kapusta11, on 16 January 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

• In TT you allocate each shot randomly so you don't hit single spot with all your weapons, you can simulate that in FPS game if you force players to fire each your weapon individualy and making them pass an "accuracy" check (forced chainfire) but this system has it's flaws as people will gravitate towards 2-3 hard hitting weapons.
  Spoiler

  There's a thread currently active where a guy suggested to assign every weapon its own crosshair which is in fact an overcomplicated forced chainfire as there is no point to fire all your weapons at once as most of them will miss anyways.
  The ideal, non RNG based, solution would be to cap damage around the most heavy hitting weapon with the most efficient damage delivery mechanic (FLD), i.e. AC20 and thus 20, the point of this is to allow weapons with lower damage to be grouped and rival those heavy hitting ones. Then you need to account other weapon's mechanics like laser's one which is slightly worse and thus damage cap for this type of weapons should be slightly increased, 25 for example, Same goes for missiles as they spread damage as well. What this all mean in practice: people would just split current 30-50 alphas in two shots but this will make hitting one spot all the time (and consistency plays a big part here) harder, more demanding in terms of player's accuracy and as the result will increase TTK, then we can go back to TT armor values, or not, depends on whiners, as always .

again, this is why we have beamduration, which creates the entire laserbeam being an accuracy check. and still be counterable by mechs able to twist away and breakign the line of fire to the aimed component.

guess why fileding gauss is such a wanted thing? it doesn't needs skill, it has a high velocoty, so hardly any prediction needed. it does the PPFLD and requires only a accuracy check one time. And on top it does not care about heat management. the charge mechanic is hardly a big deal. hold and release a mousebutton is a simple process.

that guys suggestion will just cause some mechs to suffer a load while others hardly do, its not a change that distributes the "fiX it is supposed to be equally.

and I doubt this guys thing will help, because people will just use less and big guns, so gauss and PPC's are the new meta then.

yes capping damage is alos a possibility, but in the end heatcap also caps damage, doesn't it? because it decides how many weapons you can fire together before overheating. it would in the end just be a different method to cap the alphas. Ghost heat however does not, because it allows still some mixtures of amazingly high alphas. Its similar to the only 2 gauss at once fix.

you could make weapon categories, like you cna fire only 2 big weapons (gauss, PPC, LL, AC 20). or 6 mediums (ML, AC 5/10 ) and maybe 8 smalls ( SL , AC 2)

but this would add another mechanic to mehcwarrior making stuff a lot more complicated, and for new players, ther eis already enough comliacted stuff to running. So we should better stick to the systems we have.


@Kain I don'T think ther eis anythign wrong with heat neutral mechs, as long as their dps is not extraordinary high and the tradeof for staying heatneutral is sacrificing big damage this is totally fine.
The 6 UAC5 DW runs totally cool, so why should a laserboat like a WHK not be bale to run cool, when it achives the same dps, or maybe 10% less for being ammo indepndend?

So the true question is, when should mechs not be able to run heat neutral.

Edited by Lily from animove, 16 January 2015 - 08:25 AM.

[Davers]

Everyone knows that we do have the equivalent of DHS now with efficiencies, right?

Any change to the heat system would have to come with a major overhaul of the Mech XP system as well.