115 replies to this topic

[LordKnightFandragon]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 January 2015 - 06:20 AM, said:

No, people would just use Jagermechs, King Crabs, Maulers (when/If we get them), Cataphracts, Banshee (3E) and other mechs capable of boating 3+ ACs, with maybe a couple of medium laser backup just to use the heat allowance.

Those mechs are ALREADY effective choices, take the alpha advantage away from energy weapons and they become the absolute go to. Lighter mechs not capable of boating ACs would just.. die off.

And of those mechs, the Banshee would be very bad.....it has those 3 ACs in 1 torso....

King Crab and Mauler, that would be vicious, but the rest? not so much.

[Tastian]

I don't think the heat system is as bad as you think. TT heat scale was based on 10 seconds. Try firing your weapons every 10 seconds and you'll find your heat much more manageable. But since even the slowest weapon can be fired twice in 10 seconds and the fastest weapons can fire 5 or more times the heat is terrible.

The logical solution would be to scale heat and damage to an division of 10 seconds. So, for example, firing a medium laser would do about a third of the damage per shot and a third of the heat since they fire every 3 seconds. I think you'll find most builds become heat neutral.

[Lily from animove]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 January 2015 - 06:20 AM, said:

No, people would just use Jagermechs, King Crabs, Maulers (when/If we get them), Cataphracts, Banshee (3E) and other mechs capable of boating 3+ ACs, with maybe a couple of medium laser backup just to use the heat allowance.

Those mechs are ALREADY effective choices, take the alpha advantage away from energy weapons and they become the absolute go to. Lighter mechs not capable of boating ACs would just.. die off.

The warhawk would simply eat your crab before it arrives but currently the heat system just prevents the warhawk to generate heat efficiently. Same for the Direwolf. Ac's are not going to dominate at all. bug AC's have a low range and quite high recycle time.

Ac's are heavy, and when you can get 4 Mlasers instead of an Ac 5 you would be better with such a thing at alphaing. Big alpha builds will be forced mixed builds, because AC builds don't Alpha very high with decent range. They are too ehavy for this but the lighter lasers do.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Tastian, on 19 January 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

I don't think the heat system is as bad as you think. TT heat scale was based on 10 seconds. Try firing your weapons every 10 seconds and you'll find your heat much more manageable. But since even the slowest weapon can be fired twice in 10 seconds and the fastest weapons can fire 5 or more times the heat is terrible.

The logical solution would be to scale heat and damage to an division of 10 seconds. So, for example, firing a medium laser would do about a third of the damage per shot and a third of the heat since they fire every 3 seconds. I think you'll find most builds become heat neutral.

Pretty sure the heat being to hot is not the issue anyone is on about. Its how the massive heat scale allows people to lolpha for 90 points every time thier weapons are available.

[Widowmaker1981]

Lily from animove, on 19 January 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

The warhawk would simply eat your crab before it arrives but currently the heat system just prevents the warhawk to generate heat efficiently. Same for the Direwolf. Ac's are not going to dominate at all. bug AC's have a low range and quite high recycle time.

Ac's are heavy, and when you can get 4 Mlasers instead of an Ac 5 you would be better with such a thing at alphaing. Big alpha builds will be forced mixed builds, because AC builds don't Alpha very high with decent range. They are too ehavy for this but the lighter lasers do.

You honestly think a warhawk that cannot even fire 2! of its PPCs without shutting down (30 cap, 30 heat for 2 PPCs), even with 20% more dissipation than now is going to stand a snowballs chance in a supernova of beating a 4xUAC5 crab which never has to stop firing? Do you even play this game?

Right now the warhawk stands a chance, because it can vomit out 2 PPCs followed immediately by 2 more for a decent chunk of damage, then get behind cover while it cools off.. after this change? lol.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 19 January 2015 - 06:47 AM.

[kapusta11]

LordKnightFandragon, on 19 January 2015 - 06:20 AM, said:

Yeah, but a TT turn is 10s, that is 10s for the moving, shooting, after effects, cooling and cool downs. No single action is taking place over 10s in that game. And in fact, if our mechs are cooling off 30 heat inside of just a few seconds, prolly 7 or so, then that is some very impressive cooling power. The weapons would not have a 10s cool down if we used TT mechanics, they might have a 3-5s cooldown, the rest of the time is spent moving, shooting, aiming and the rest of the works.

In TT PPC fires once per turn - once in ten seconds, 15 DHS is enough to cool down 2 ERPPCs and fire "on cooldown", you generate 30 heat, you dissipate 30 heat. In MWO it's 4 seconds, you generate 30 heat but dissipete only 12 over 4 sec. There is nothing wrong with firing certain amount of energy weapons on cooldown, and how much "certain" is, is limited by crit space and tonnage that you can devote for heatsinks.

Widowmaker1981, on 19 January 2015 - 06:45 AM, said:

You honestly think a warhawk that cannot even fire 2! of its PPCs without shutting down (30 cap, 30 heat for 2 PPCs), even with 20% more dissipation than now is going to stand a snowballs chance in a supernova of beating a 4xUAC5 crab which never has to stop firing? Do you even play this game?

Right now the warhawk stands a chance, because it can vomit out 2 PPCs followed immediately by 2 more for a decent chunk of damage, then get behind cover while it cools off.. after this change? lol.

Under proper heat system/dissipation/heat scale Warhawk would've fire 3xERPPCs on cooldown or all 4 if pilot was willing to take quite severe movement penalty. That's OP by MWO standarts but has little to do with heat. It's lack of any sort of mechanic that was supposed to replace hit allocation from TT (convergence/recoil/damage cap/cone of fire pick whatever you like) that causes problems.

Edited by kapusta11, 19 January 2015 - 07:02 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 January 2015 - 06:45 AM, said:

You honestly think a warhawk that cannot even fire 2! of its PPCs without shutting down (30 cap, 30 heat for 2 PPCs), even with 20% more dissipation than now is going to stand a snowballs chance in a supernova of beating a 4xUAC5 crab which never has to stop firing? Do you even play this game?

your uac's don't have the range, the damage then is low, the thunderhawk outruns your little fat crab (unless you invest in a XL to get the same speed) which gets a constant spam of CERPPc's

so o you even play the game? or do you always create scenarios where mechs start next to each other. The warhawk also can twist the craps damage if neede dbecause it has some cooldown phases. your crab can't without losing the stream of damage into the WHK's direction. Then the WHk is ammo independend, so no runnign dry by ammo, also no risk of ammo explosions. And your crab would have to put some ammo into its sidetorsi if you don't wanna go with only 4 t ammo. which then is risky with an XL.

and when clanners would be overcustomizeable as your IS mechs, well good by crab because a 4 PPC direwolf woul have plenty of tonnage left for engine and engine internal DHS.

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 January 2015 - 07:01 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Lily from animove, on 19 January 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

your uac's don't have the range, the damage then is low, the thunderhawk outruns your little fat crab (unless you invest in a XL to get the same speed) which gets a constant spam of CERPPc's

so o you even play the game? or do you always create scenarios where mechs start next to each other. The warhawk also can twist the craps damage if neede dbecause it has some cooldown phases. your crab can't without losing the stream of damage into the WHK's direction.

I think you are overestimating what would happen with all 2.0 heatsinks...

WHK dissipation would be 5.6/s from 28DHS, x 1.15 from elite efficiency = 6.44 heat / second. Which is 2.3s to cool down from firing 1 ERPPC. given that the cooldown of the PPCs is 3.5s with modules it wouldnt even be able to sustain firing 2 of them on cooldown, much less 4, and given the low heat cap.. well the mech simply wouldnt work. 2 of the PPCs would be paperweights... you really haven't thought this through.

[Tastian]

LordKnightFandragon, on 19 January 2015 - 06:43 AM, said:

Pretty sure the heat being to hot is not the issue anyone is on about. Its how the massive heat scale allows people to lolpha for 90 points every time thier weapons are available.

But did you notice how this plan cuts weapon damage by a half to a quarter or more? PGI had to double armor because of pinpoint instant convergence and weapon recycle. Lowering damage to a 10 second spread would lower alpha damage.

[Lily from animove]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 January 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

I think you are overestimating what would happen with all 2.0 heatsinks...

WHK dissipation would be 5.6/s from 28DHS, x 1.15 from elite efficiency = 6.44 heat / second. Which is 2.3s to cool down from firing 1 ERPPC. given that the cooldown of the PPCs is 3.5s with modules it wouldnt even be able to sustain firing 2 of them on cooldown, much less 4, and given the low heat cap.. well the mech simply wouldnt work. 2 of the PPCs would be paperweights... you really haven't thought this through.

but you still use 4 ppc's because you may wanna go left around or right around without having to expose the entire mech. only using 3 ppc's for example would only allow you to use a single further dhs by crits. yet halfes the firepower at this amount of exposal.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b50181686139bd8

or people will start mixing stuff,

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...21d7640220cdae2
this woudl allow you to basically fire the gauss and rather instant after this the PPC's or the other way around. then cool down and repeat.

but currently I can fire 2 PPC and 2 PPC within 0,5 seconds and do not overheat, which is a nearly PPFLD like thing, and also a reasons why CERPPC got those splash damage because such an alpha would have been 60 damage with original 15 dmg per ppc, which is basically a quadrogauss. and the only reason why it would work is MWO's massive heattreshold.
you said yourself more than 2 PPC is what you can not cool, and thats why 30 heattreshold would prevent such damage alpha beasts. still 4 PPC's means you have 2 PPC in each arms, which has further tacical advantages as cornerpopping, or being able to lose an arm without instantly losing 50% firepower. your crab however with a lost arm efficiently loses 50% firepower while said warhawk with one lost arm loses only a few % by the DHS he is losing in the process as well.
different working builds both with their own advantages.

Not every paperweight is paperweight, some is a tactical decision for the FPS component of the game.

reaosn why the WHK sucks is the DW totally outclasses it, also by the way it can drag firepower in massive alphas by combinign 2 gauss + X. and so the only differnece between the DW and the AHK is abit speed. but with the DW not being able to fire oversized alphas, the WHK would be a valid alternate choice as well.

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 January 2015 - 07:18 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Lily from animove, on 19 January 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

but you still use 4 ppc's because you may wanna go left around or right around without having to expose the entire mech. only using 3 ppc's for example would only allow you to use a single further dhs by crits. yet halfes the firepower at this amount of exposal.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b50181686139bd8

or people will start mixing stuff,

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...21d7640220cdae2
this woudl allow you to basically fire the gauss and rather instant after this the PPC's or the other way around. then cool down and repeat.

but currently I can fire 2 PPC and 2 PPC within 0,5 seconds and do not overheat, which is a nearly PPFLD like thing, and also a reasons why CERPPC got those splash damage because such an alpha would have been 60 damage with original 15 dmg per ppc, which is basically a quadrogauss. and the only reason why it would work is MWO's massive heattreshold.
you said yourself more than 2 PPC is what you can not cool, and thats why 30 heattreshold would prevent such damage alpha beasts. still 4 PPC's means you have 2 PPC in each arms, which has further tacical advantages as cornerpopping, or being able to lose an arm without instantly losing 50% firepower. your crab however with a lost arm efficiently loses 50% firepower while said warhawk with one lost arm loses only a few % by the DHS he is losing in the process as well.
different working builds both with their own advantages.

Not every paperweight is paperweight, some is a tactical decision for the FPS component of the game.

urg.. i give up. If you cant see the following there is no hope:

Right now, IS ballistic spam is a viable choice compared to laser alpha - you trade high DPS, no heat and screenshake against high alpha, hitscan unlimited ammo with ability to hide. Its a roughly even choice imo, with laser alpha being slightly more popular because its easier to use.

If you take the alpha away from the energy and try to make it compete on DPS, which it cant because the heat is still way too much, and just leave the ballistics as they are then its no contest anymore. If you wanted to keep energy viable with a 30 heat cap you would need to make DHS at least 4.0/s, and THAT aint happening..

[Lily from animove]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 January 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

urg.. i give up. If you cant see the following there is no hope:

Right now, IS ballistic spam is a viable choice compared to laser alpha - you trade high DPS, no heat and screenshake against high alpha, hitscan unlimited ammo with ability to hide. Its a roughly even choice imo, with laser alpha being slightly more popular because its easier to use.

If you take the alpha away from the energy and try to make it compete on DPS, which it cant because the heat is still way too much, and just leave the ballistics as they are then its no contest anymore. If you wanted to keep energy viable with a 30 heat cap you would need to make DHS at least 4.0/s, and THAT aint happening..

I doubt that, and the IS is only a valid choice because clans do have stream AC's. so entirely the pinpoint thing is what makes the IS Ac's a valid choice and AC 5's aren't even as scary as you amke them, only on totally overquirked mechs like the Dragon.
further in CW when ammo is a non infinite ressource compared to the tiny public matches on ratehr small nearly always in range maps, energyweapons become more than a valid alternate choice.

Or guess why the most meta is laservomit and ppc spam in CW? and the thunderbolt isn't even the alpha farting E beaot. it is similar to what the change would make, just not that extremely spamming as the TDR atm is.

PGI is running in circles, they first created a high heattreshold then invented ghostheat to contain it, and then they gave mechs those quirks. which indirectly achieved a similar system in the background, just with making some supercomplicated turns to achieve this.

and btw, nearly all laserbuilds would balance amongst each other:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...45cf22d7b84b3c5

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f5c7a67ba32ffc0

two builds and nearly the same firepower, the atlas can drag some different advantages than the thunderbolt can.
same true firepower, nearly same amount of DHS. But the atlas can cornerpop his weapons better, and has by its assault nature more hitpoints while the TDR is faster and has Torso mounted PPC's
Both unquirked are now not as epically far away from each other in the way they are built.

And since Energyweapons are more heatefficient the shorter their range is, boating would now mean mixing these wepaons, like 2x LL and maybe 2-4 ml. or shorts. because then you just use the weapons that are more heatefficient depending to the situation instead of spamming them all.

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 January 2015 - 07:58 AM.

[Funky Bacon]

How about this?

* Increase overall heat dissipation by some bit. maybe 25-50%
* Make 60 heat the maximum heat before Mastery bonuses.
* Make 0 to 30 the safe zone and 30 to 60 the danger zone.

* 30-40 > mild or barely noticeable damage to structure at a slow interval during prolonged exposure. Speed reduced by 5-10%. heat warning, no shutdown.
* 40-50 > Slightly faster interval of damage to structure. Speed reduced by 20% Small risk of shutting down during prolonged exposure, warning included.
* 50-60 > more rapid structure damage. Component destruction chance. Speed reduced by 30%. Short warning before mech shut down.
* 60+ > Critical structure and component damage. instant shutdown.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 January 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

urg.. i give up. If you cant see the following there is no hope:

Right now, IS ballistic spam is a viable choice compared to laser alpha - you trade high DPS, no heat and screenshake against high alpha, hitscan unlimited ammo with ability to hide. Its a roughly even choice imo, with laser alpha being slightly more popular because its easier to use.

If you take the alpha away from the energy and try to make it compete on DPS, which it cant because the heat is still way too much, and just leave the ballistics as they are then its no contest anymore. If you wanted to keep energy viable with a 30 heat cap you would need to make DHS at least 4.0/s, and THAT aint happening..

Nope, what you do is slow down ballistic RoF by maybe a second or so. You put ballistic ammo lvls at TT lvls of 10 for AC10, 7 for AC20, 8 for Gauss. Then you have choices to make. Heavy, rather limited ammo, kinda slower firing, but cooler weapons or hotter, easier to use, limited by heat weapons.....Also, make IS Cannons spread shot like the Clan ones. Maybe 2 shot vs the Clan 4, but any spread makes them less amazing.

You change the game in such a way that a player feels pressure on which one he/she really wants to take.

Then toss in a CoF or Recoil mechanic to help make cannons seem a bit less appealing even yet. Where lasers wont have as high of recoil or CoF bloom, the cannons will be low heat, punchy, more PPD but harder to aim and hit with.

[Sable]

when i first read this idea 6 months to a year ago i did not like it at all. But over time i've grown to really consider this as an alternative to ghost heat. I mean you woulnd't be able to fire super alphas off because it would be incredibly easy to punch past 30 heat. 6 medium lasers is still pretty much the limit, as well as 3 large lasers being just shy of the heat threshold.

The way the quirks are working right now though i think they would have to be totally redone, at least the ones for less heat generation. And i think this would be a major undertaking with a long balance nesting time afterwards. And frankly there's a lot more pressing design goals i'd like to see PGI finish before addressing such a big change. You have my vote though

[Carcass23]

[MauttyKoray]

Blue Boutique, on 16 January 2015 - 03:10 AM, said:

The Awesome with 20 DHS is why. 3 PPC shots then 2 and another 2 which made it a long ranged 70 front loaded damage machine inside 10 seconds.

HAHAHAHAH I can fire like 8 right now within 10 seconds on an awesome, maybe more. 4 PPC + 3 ML Awesome is amazing right now.

A lot of smart people want this as it would ACTUALLY balance the stupid game. You have a lower heat cap meaning you cannot alpha strike anymore, you have to fire fewer weapons in a single volley, however with the true TT heat system it dissipates fairly quickly allowing you to fire MORE OFTEN. So you may only fire 2-4 medium lasers at a time, or 1 PPC, 1 or 2 LL (not sure the heat spike from these off the top of my head) but you'll be able to fire, cooldown, fire, cooldown, etc. It would allow for a FAR more balance gunplay aspect between energy, ballistic, and missiles, meanwhile allowing the low tonnage low hardpoint mechs (like the vindicator) to fire in a more constant pattern like the other mechs will have to or low tonnage high hardpoint mechs (like the nova) to be able to pretty much continuously fire small groups of lasers but could NEVER alpha as many as it can now.

With reduction of Armor and return to more stock Ammo counts it would balance out making ballistic shots more precious, the TTK to equalize across mechs (assaults will literally be more survivable than lights and the reason you take them), and promote build diversity as things like 7MPL and 2LPL 2LL builds won't be the most viable anymore due to the reduce heatcap, even builds like the multi-ballistic direwolf build up heat fairly quickly and thus would be reduced in their dakka spam, in turn causing the varied range/weapon builds to return to viable use and promote combat at all ranges, not just brawl deathballs or sniper wars.

This would also promote role warfare, as light hunter mediums to ward off light attacks on slow moving assault would once again become a needed position. It would also promote Lance warfare vs deathballs as flanking and scouting would become much more valuable tactics, no longer requiring 12 man focus firing lines to take down a single mech.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 19 January 2015 - 11:28 AM.

[BourbonFaucet]

All right, so hear me out here.

We have weapons that roughly focus on firing within a 5 second time frame instead of 10, I'd say.

That means instead of a 30 heat cap, it ought to be 60.

I had an idea earlier that goes like this:

- Make the heat cap 60.
- Make SHS the only heat sink that increases the cap
- Increase heat dissipation across the board by 50-100% depending on balance.

Now if you want to fire more alpha's, you can do so with SHS, but then you'll need to retreat. DHS will likely still be "superior", but this system would at least aid in making SHS useable until you can upgrade to dubs.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 January 2015 - 06:45 AM, said:

You honestly think a warhawk that cannot even fire 2! of its PPCs without shutting down (30 cap, 30 heat for 2 PPCs), even with 20% more dissipation than now is going to stand a snowballs chance in a supernova of beating a 4xUAC5 crab which never has to stop firing? Do you even play this game?

Right now the warhawk stands a chance, because it can vomit out 2 PPCs followed immediately by 2 more for a decent chunk of damage, then get behind cover while it cools off.. after this change? lol.

Until they are 15dmg a piece. Then your crab might not be in such great shape. Everyone calls the ERPPCs such crap, but the obvious fix is to simply buff them to 15/15 and suddenly everyone has a cow over the idea.....at 10/15 they are a useless weapon, at 15/15 sudenly they become the best weapon evar?

[Yokaiko]

Lily from animove, on 16 January 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

I just wonder why we do not have this system and have the big heat treshold stuff.

In my opinion 30fixed heattreshold + true DHS, the entire game would be less PPFLD except 2 gauss 2 (ER)PPC.

I am not in MWO since the beginning, so what caused the system we have now?
Or what was flawed with the 30 heat true DHS to not be used?

No because in TT you subtracted the heatsinks from the heat generated and THEN applied it to the heat scale. Increasing the cap is the exact same thing.