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Why Not True Dhs And 30 Heat Treshold


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#81 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 03:15 AM

View PostBlue Boutique, on 16 January 2015 - 03:10 AM, said:

The Awesome with 20 DHS is why. 3 PPC shots then 2 and another 2 which made it a long ranged 70 front loaded damage machine inside 10 seconds.

And 45 points of heat each volley.That 3rd shot would be more difficult to land due to heat affecting targeting and you would be an easier target due to heat making you sluggish. Heat has more than a shut down affect in this universe ya know.

#82 Lily from animove

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 04:08 AM

View PostMatthias Malthias, on 20 January 2015 - 03:09 AM, said:


F4T 4L brings up an interesting point in that it's practically impossible to fully "port" the mechanics of a game designed for table top into a video game without sacrificing some fidelity. Where I take issue with this is people taking that to the logical extreme and contending that "because it's impossible to get 100% fidelity of translation, let's throw everything out the window".

Whatever the case, it's clear that both Ghost Heat (to combat hugely bloated heatscale) and Quirks (to combat the consequences of massively bloated firing rate against unchanged TT dissipation) are bandaids upon a bandaid solution. Can we agree on this point at least? Hopefully yes.

Taking inspiration from TT mechanics as a basis upon which to attempt to shift the game into a different state (hopefully a better one) is no different from proposing an alternative mechanic. Arguing for a deflated heat capacity and increased dissipation is by no means "TT Purism"; it is an position that perhaps, maybe, that the baseline heat mechanics for MWO are just a little inflated.

The current heat mechanics encourage boating. Alpha Strikes are an opening salvo, never a last resort. The current quirk mechanics, even more so. Indeed, having different weapons optimised for every range is highly discouraged in MWO, because it reduces efficiency of tonnage due to quirk benefits not being applied; and it reduces the potential of PPFLD due to disparate recharge times/flight times/aiming requirements. One only needs to compare stock builds against Champion builds; or heck, the metamechs builds against stock builds. I contend that the quirkening didn't really introduce chassis diversity; it merely shifted what was top dog around; and that all quirk adjustments will do is simply balkanise new FOTMs instead of encouraging true diversity.



This is also another good point. Zero convergence which is almost expected of shooters pose a problem in MWO, because the Mechwarrior games have always attempted to be more sim than straight FPS. Despite that, nearly all Mechwarrior games have featured zero convergence and in fact MWO has been the only game to date to really try to spread damage around by giving lasers burn time, Gauss travel time instead of hitscan and LRM/SRMs a good amount of scatter.

And yet it's still not enough. Despite all these measures, despite doubled armour and internal structure, it's still not enough. Because players can still put 30+ damage into that same spot, reliably.

A deflated heat cap will go some way towards pushing the energy component of that problem down; but as others have mentioned, dual AC20 and Gauss and massed lighter ACs like the triple AC5 Banshee can neatly sidestep these problems. People have mentioned needing to further nerf Ballistics in those circumstances, because massed Lasers will no longer have the heat efficiency to put that damage into one spot.

All this would be moot if dissipation were buffed, because all of a sudden those heat inefficient methods of damage become a lot more tenable. Firing 2 Large Lasers builds heat in all but the most quirked or undergunned mechs right now. With buffed dissipation, your heatscale would bounce up and down a lot more, but in the end, it may be that Lasers with sufficiently buffed dissipation rate would be flattened into the same kind of heat efficiency as Ballistics.

That being said, I'm a big believer in accommodating more playstyles. Having a hard cap of 30, no exceptions still leaves SHS out in the cold. It may be beneficial to therefore do the following:

Give SHS bonus heat capacity, but only slightly increased dissipation over current MWO baseline. Let's say, 0.5 bonus capacity per heatsink. Dissipation up to 0.15 from 0.1 HPS. In this new rubric, the SHS HBK-4P now has a heat cap of 0.5 x 23 + 30 = 41.5 capacity, and dissipation of 3.45 (0.15 x 23 = 3.45). Already, the 4P looks like a formidable striker; but it may alpha only once; and from there requires a lot of heat discipline.

Under DHS, we could give it no bonus heat capacity but truedubs; or even higher than truedubs. We'll do both 0.2 HPS/DHS and 0.25 HPS/DHS calculations:
0.2 HPS/DHS yields 30 heat capacity and 3.4 Dissipation. In this case, the SHS is actually superior to DHS, giving more dissipation (by 0.05 HPS) and ~30% higher heat capacity.
0.25 HPS/DHS yields 30 heat capacity and 4.25 Dissipation. This gives enough dissipation to group-fire 4ML, forever (4.08 HPS vs 4.25 HPS dissipated) and slowly build heat when firing 5ML (building 0.88 HPS per volley at 5.13HPS).

These are just some arbitrary numbers and in no way imply a balanced implementation; but it does pose some food for thought. What's interesting is that under both rubrics of SHS and DHS the maximum viable alpha has decreased significantly; but the maximum sustained group fire has gone up by a lot. Further tweaking is required but in my opinion if heat penalties like slowed mech movement/torso twist/arm slewing were put in at ~50-80% heat not even SHS "boats" could put out scary alphas because the effective heat range for which weapons can be safely group fired has been nerfed.

That "strikers" (strong group fire, weak sustain) and "brawlers" (weak group fire, strong sustain) can both be viable in different ways under this revised rubric as opposed to "everyone run DHS or shut down" hopefully demonstrates that even massed lasers can still have a role even if heat capacity were to go down. If anything, increasing dissipation would be the biggest buff to Energy weapons outside of reducing their heat generation through quirks; which merely give "bonus tonnage" to specific weapons and encourage boating.


but 30 as a fixed cap is the entire thing you need to prevent 2ERPPC + gauss combos. and then you easily reach 40+ PP as well. while a fixed 30 would make you at least have to shutdown, or override and take some damage from overheating. At least the IS mechs will due to being able to go SHS have 50alpha strike abilities. Not sure if this is good, because a 2ERPPC and gauss mech can then easily put out 50dmg + another 30 in the next shot without caring much about heat. Surely restricted to a few mechs, but still a possibility.

Edited by Lily from animove, 20 January 2015 - 04:34 AM.


#83 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 04:10 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 20 January 2015 - 04:08 AM, said:


but 30 as a fixed cap is the entire thing you need to prevent 2PPC + gauss combos. and then you easily reach 40+ PP as well. while a fixed 30 would make you at least have to shutdown, or override and take some damage from overheating. At least the IS mechs will due to being able to go SHS have 50alpha strike abilities. Not sure if this is good, because a 2ERPPC and gauss emch cna then easily put out 50dmg + another 30 in the next shot without caring much about heat. Surely restricted to a few mechs, but still a possibility.


10+10+1 = 21

PPC =/= ERPPC

#84 Lily from animove

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 04:34 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 20 January 2015 - 04:10 AM, said:


10+10+1 = 21

PPC =/= ERPPC



sry I meant ERPPC of course.

#85 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 04:59 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 20 January 2015 - 04:34 AM, said:



sry I meant ERPPC of course.


So clans would not be allowed 2xPPC+Gauss, but IS would? (i would never use an ERPPC on IS side except on a TDR-9S, AWS-9M or that one cicada. ever. they are far too hot for the damage)

So many problems with this system. Do not want.

#86 Lily from animove

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 05:33 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 20 January 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:


So clans would not be allowed 2xPPC+Gauss, but IS would? (i would never use an ERPPC on IS side except on a TDR-9S, AWS-9M or that one cicada. ever. they are far too hot for the damage)

So many problems with this system. Do not want.



Nonono, my sytsem would restrict it for BOTH.

my reply was for Matthias' System where he allowed SHS to increase the heat treshold by tiny steps. and clanners don't have access to SHS. Simply by this feature, IS would be able to fire dual gauss and dual ERPPCs even (just needs 32 hetatreshold), while clanners can at max fire 2 gauss + 1 PPC or 2ERPCC at ONCE. They still can use 2 ERPPC and 2 gauss, but unlike IS they can not alpha them together. And clans don't have access to regular PPC's so they can not combine 2 gauss 2 PPC's.

my system prevents any full rnage alphas beyond 40 (+5spread for clanners) because with a fixed 30 treshold the max pinpointFLD alpha is 2Gauss + 1ERPPC for sniperbuilds. it would however allow 2gauss + 2 PPC's (50dmg or 2 AC20 and 2 ppc (60dmg)
but both later posted builds are range limited, because PPC has a dead range at close range and Ac 20 is losing dmg quite early. so their high alpha poinpoint ability is very niche. while Gauss + ERPPC combos work from 0 to hero.

Edited by Lily from animove, 20 January 2015 - 05:35 AM.


#87 MikeBend

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 06:20 AM

Shut down your Nova-Prime, by using only one arm, instead of 2! Introducing the all new Heat Treshold 30! Ask in your local stores now! :D

#88 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 06:56 AM

View PostMikeBend, on 20 January 2015 - 06:20 AM, said:

Shut down your Nova-Prime, by using only one arm, instead of 2! Introducing the all new Heat Treshold 30! Ask in your local stores now! :D

with heat working as INTENDED. You would fire 6 Mediums... 3-4 times before you'd encounter a slight drop in speed. Better than how this crap works now.

#89 Lily from animove

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 06:57 AM

View PostMikeBend, on 20 January 2015 - 06:20 AM, said:

Shut down your Nova-Prime, by using only one arm, instead of 2! Introducing the all new Heat Treshold 30! Ask in your local stores now! :D


no it would not shut down, a single arm is exactly 30 heat and this does not make it shut down. the system would also need the engine heat being gone, because this was not there in the old mechwarrior games.

#90 Matthias Malthias

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 05:26 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 20 January 2015 - 05:33 AM, said:



Nonono, my sytsem would restrict it for BOTH.

my reply was for Matthias' System where he allowed SHS to increase the heat treshold by tiny steps. and clanners don't have access to SHS. Simply by this feature, IS would be able to fire dual gauss and dual ERPPCs even (just needs 32 hetatreshold), while clanners can at max fire 2 gauss + 1 PPC or 2ERPCC at ONCE. They still can use 2 ERPPC and 2 gauss, but unlike IS they can not alpha them together. And clans don't have access to regular PPC's so they can not combine 2 gauss 2 PPC's.

my system prevents any full rnage alphas beyond 40 (+5spread for clanners) because with a fixed 30 treshold the max pinpointFLD alpha is 2Gauss + 1ERPPC for sniperbuilds. it would however allow 2gauss + 2 PPC's (50dmg or 2 AC20 and 2 ppc (60dmg)
but both later posted builds are range limited, because PPC has a dead range at close range and Ac 20 is losing dmg quite early. so their high alpha poinpoint ability is very niche. while Gauss + ERPPC combos work from 0 to hero.


I had neglected to include Clans in my post but thinking back on it; you're absolutely right. Since Clans do not have access to SHS; they would essentially be locked out of the "striker" builds by default.

I suppose there really is no role for SHS then, if that's the case; the alternative being to also give Clan DHS a little bit of extra heatcap - but then we'd be back to square one; with Clans having potentially larger heat capacities due to Clan DHS slot efficiency.

What I find interesting is that so far, the discussion has centred largely around "striker" or sniper builds - high group damage, low sustain. That PPCs and ERPPCs are getting so much discussion says to me that players in this thread at least, rate 7 tons of infinite ammunition AC10 damage with 10-15 heat a lot higher than everything else when it comes to considerations of the heatscale.

As for IS dual Gauss/Dual ERPPC netting 50 potential PPFLD, I don't think it's as much of an issue nowadays than the past; given that the projectile velocities of Gauss and PPC have been decoupled massively. (2000m/s for Gauss vs 1050m/s/950m/s for PPC/ERPPC. It also neglects that IS Gauss and PPC is 3 tons more per Gauss and 1 ton more per PPC; but I can definitely see where you're coming from. IS is both tonnage and range limited; whereas Clan is more heat and weapon spread limited.

Whatever the case, it would be a good first step to simply hard cap heat threshold to 30 and begin anew from there; the alternative being to reduce baseline heatcap to 10 and go from there with revised heat cap contributions of SHS and DHS.

Beyond a hard cap of 30; it would also be useful to finally put in heat penalties; starting with slowed movement - threshold debatable. Even a 30 heatcap still allows some pretty brutal combos of mixed Ballistic/Energy fires, like AC20+2LPL (42, 20 heat) or simply AC20+4ML (40,24 heat). By reducing the "usable" heatcap it makes players fire even less weapons together.

Actually that gives me an idea. What if SHS let players spike higher on the heat scale (closer to max of 30) than DHS before heat penalties? If DHS gave movement penalties at say, 60% threshold whilst SHS only gave movement penalties at 80%; the "usable" heatscale for DHS would be 18 whereas for SHS it would be 24 - but with lower dissipation. A difference of 1.5 Medium Lasers, but that's pretty significant already; especially if dissipation were to be buffed.

With added engine heat and Jump Jet heat, the usable heatscale would be even lower. And with such a limited heat bracket to work with, fielding the most heat efficient weapon group per range bracket would finally be a thing; instead of all this boating and single range specialisation. The Timberwolf/Mad Cat wasn't scary in CBT because it could lolpha lasers at all ranges; it was brutal because it had powerful weapons groups that overlapped at all ranges; with the speed, and armour, and jump jets.

Imagine the stock Timber Wolf actually being a preferred build over the current LPL/ERML meta - beginning with LRMs at long, overlapping LRM/ERLL at mid-long range, then overlapping ERLL/ERML at mid-range, then overlapping ERML/MPL/Mgun at short range. Hardpoint selection would no longer be about cramming the most of one quirked/moduled weapon into a group; but rather, finding a good optimal grouping for an optimal range. Positioning and range and role warfare would be even more important; as opposed to deathballing up.

#91 Tombstoner

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 06:25 AM

PGI has never explained its heat system. That i can remember. Personally i don't think they have a clear idea for what they want to get out of it. According to PGI the Awesome shuts down if it fires 3 ppc's at the same time. That is absurd. PGI confused the concept of instantaneous heat spikes with accumulated undissipated heat. The TT mechanic is 30+ heat after 10 seconds of dissipation. PGI converted it to 30 heat+extra from other stuff max with a sliding upper limit.....

This works if you want to make money of players when they use a cool shot... but the people cried P2W so PGI changed cool shots a bit.

#92 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 07:01 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 20 January 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:


no it would not shut down, a single arm is exactly 30 heat and this does not make it shut down. the system would also need the engine heat being gone, because this was not there in the old mechwarrior games.


6x6 = 36

#93 Lily from animove

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 08:45 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 21 January 2015 - 07:01 AM, said:


6x6 = 36


well, yes and no. With the system change the values of heat have to be reworked.
CERML got a heat nerf because the sytsem with 60 heattreshold allowed spamming those lasers, and so PGI nerfed them (again a heat penalty to fix the too high given heattreshold).
And with going back to 30 heattreshold the old 5 heat would be ok again, because then the issue of spammign CERML would disappear, since no one can spam more than 6 of them.

the system PGi had worked for a few excpetions on IS mechs, and those exceptions got penalised with ghost heat.

the appearance of the clanners who brought a massive amount of E hardpoints did totally across all the bords basically screwerd the whole system.

And so PGI made all those weird nerfs. But those nerfs were not enough, the firepower of clanners still exceeded. and so PGi gave the IS mechs all those totally way too high quirks.


with a restricted max amount if treshold, clanners still cna bring all their weapons, and yet will not exced the IS firepower, because the heattreshold will limit the usage of how many weapons you can fire.
clanners will stick with the advantage of packing a bigger diversity for more situations, but they will in mot cases not be able to use their weapons. think about the Nova, the DWF, they all cna not put out the firepower anyore in such a short time. they have to spread it out. and IS will just behave similar. But we lost that ability because we can fire all the weapons we have, and so diversity never cared except preventing ghostheat. And we still play alphawarriors most of the time because all the adjustments have only pevented some edgecases, but not the alphabuilds in general at all.

Edited by Lily from animove, 21 January 2015 - 08:53 AM.


#94 Tombstoner

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 01:06 PM

View PostLily from animove, on 21 January 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:


well, yes and no. With the system change the values of heat have to be reworked.
CERML got a heat nerf because the sytsem with 60 heattreshold allowed spamming those lasers, and so PGI nerfed them (again a heat penalty to fix the too high given heattreshold).
And with going back to 30 heattreshold the old 5 heat would be ok again, because then the issue of spammign CERML would disappear, since no one can spam more than 6 of them.

the system PGi had worked for a few excpetions on IS mechs, and those exceptions got penalised with ghost heat.

the appearance of the clanners who brought a massive amount of E hardpoints did totally across all the bords basically screwerd the whole system.

And so PGI made all those weird nerfs. But those nerfs were not enough, the firepower of clanners still exceeded. and so PGi gave the IS mechs all those totally way too high quirks.


with a restricted max amount if treshold, clanners still cna bring all their weapons, and yet will not exced the IS firepower, because the heattreshold will limit the usage of how many weapons you can fire.
clanners will stick with the advantage of packing a bigger diversity for more situations, but they will in mot cases not be able to use their weapons. think about the Nova, the DWF, they all cna not put out the firepower anyore in such a short time. they have to spread it out. and IS will just behave similar. But we lost that ability because we can fire all the weapons we have, and so diversity never cared except preventing ghostheat. And we still play alphawarriors most of the time because all the adjustments have only pevented some edgecases, but not the alphabuilds in general at all.

Because alphas are ok in the eye of PGI. I presume its the difference between a shot gun sending 5 spheres down range for one shot and a smg sending 1 sphere per pull 5 times. Same damage if the spheres have the same mass and velocity.

I have come to accept that PGI will never understand what causes mechs to shut down: the difference between instantaneous heat at 30+ (heat capacity) vs. 30+ heat for 10 seconds of dissipation (TT, not solaris) ...... Maybe they do but feel a heat cap is a better system.... I think they where betting on making money from cool shots...... make all mechs run hot, but for a 50 cent consumable you can pop a can of cool and squeeze in that extra alpha for the kill. not pay to win exactly....

#95 Matthias Malthias

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Posted 22 January 2015 - 05:27 AM

View PostTombstoner, on 21 January 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

Because alphas are ok in the eye of PGI. I presume its the difference between a shot gun sending 5 spheres down range for one shot and a smg sending 1 sphere per pull 5 times. Same damage if the spheres have the same mass and velocity.

I have come to accept that PGI will never understand what causes mechs to shut down: the difference between instantaneous heat at 30+ (heat capacity) vs. 30+ heat for 10 seconds of dissipation (TT, not solaris) ...... Maybe they do but feel a heat cap is a better system.... I think they where betting on making money from cool shots...... make all mechs run hot, but for a 50 cent consumable you can pop a can of cool and squeeze in that extra alpha for the kill. not pay to win exactly....


Whilst we can speculate on what aspects of the game PGI were willing to sacrifice fun for in lieu of cash grabs - consumables being a huge topic - it's not exactly the point of the thread. But it does have a certain degree of cognitive dissonance that coolant flush allows people to alpha, flush, then alpha again. That you can buy the "mastered" flush with real money smacks heavily of pay to win; grindable or not - coolant consumables were what drove me to quit initially; the last straw on an already overburdened, delayed, bug-ridden camel.

However I do agree that PGI has misinterpreted the heatscale from the beginning. Either that, or those games of CBT they played to get a feel for the universe somehow didn't get through to them that it is indeed 30 heat across 10 seconds of dissipation; and that the "30 heatscale" is subtractive instead of an additive total. In truth, CBT has an unbounded heatscale. In theory you can alpha strike 6 ERPPCs all at the same time - if you had 45 DHS; you would end the turn at zero heat. "Heat Capacity" as a translation from CBT to FPS Mechwarrior reflects how much heat can be subtracted at the end of 10 seconds.

So really, if we were talking a 100% faithful attempt at a port of TT mechanics over to FPS; we wouldn't be talking heat capacity at all; because CBT has an unbounded heat capacity. Instead we would just have dissipation over time; and heat penalties for staying at certain thresholds of heat for X seconds.
As an FPS it would be bad for pacing to have everyone be able to alpha strike for infinite points; so a max capacity is put there to reel it in.

Thresholds of heat for X seconds, whilst a lot more faithful of an interpretation, would be too complex; optimising your damage output vs heat would require a metronome or a timer on the bottom corner of your screen.

I think that with the current state of the game with people essentially rocking 30-35 DHS (60-70 heat cap) worth of subtraction (choice of words deliberate here) - it's clear that having an extremely high bound for alpha strikes is unhealthy for the game. One of my earlier points in this thread and some others was that giving players a baseline of 30 points of subtraction basically gave everybody 15 free DHS (30 SHS); and that really, if PGI had wanted a dynamic cap in the first place; everyone should have started at 0, not 30 points.

10 SHS would give 10 cap; 10 DHS 20 cap, and so on. This would have then required a shift of the heat scale penalties from absolutes to percentage based, because having a 30 heat shutdown threshold doesn't make sense if players can go below 30 heat and hit their capacity.

Whatever the case is, something has to give about the current maximum heat capacities, because 30 + n heatsinks by a certain factor is bloating the capacity to 50+. Many solutions are possible, but a maximum cap of 30 is probably the simplest implementation.

#96 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 22 January 2015 - 05:46 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 21 January 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:


well, yes and no. With the system change the values of heat have to be reworked.
CERML got a heat nerf because the sytsem with 60 heattreshold allowed spamming those lasers, and so PGI nerfed them (again a heat penalty to fix the too high given heattreshold).
And with going back to 30 heattreshold the old 5 heat would be ok again, because then the issue of spammign CERML would disappear, since no one can spam more than 6 of them.

the system PGi had worked for a few excpetions on IS mechs, and those exceptions got penalised with ghost heat.

the appearance of the clanners who brought a massive amount of E hardpoints did totally across all the bords basically screwerd the whole system.

And so PGI made all those weird nerfs. But those nerfs were not enough, the firepower of clanners still exceeded. and so PGi gave the IS mechs all those totally way too high quirks.


with a restricted max amount if treshold, clanners still cna bring all their weapons, and yet will not exced the IS firepower, because the heattreshold will limit the usage of how many weapons you can fire.
clanners will stick with the advantage of packing a bigger diversity for more situations, but they will in mot cases not be able to use their weapons. think about the Nova, the DWF, they all cna not put out the firepower anyore in such a short time. they have to spread it out. and IS will just behave similar. But we lost that ability because we can fire all the weapons we have, and so diversity never cared except preventing ghostheat. And we still play alphawarriors most of the time because all the adjustments have only pevented some edgecases, but not the alphabuilds in general at all.


No one could spam more than 6 ERML before due to ghost heat, which was set at 6 from their introduction, and the increase from 5 to 6 heat was a clan vs IS balancing decision, so i dont see how it would be reverted, as that would mess with Clan vs IS balance (which this whole idea would anyway, as well as messing with missile/energy/ballistic balance)

It doesnt matter what you do - players will always seek out the best way to put maximum damage downrange with minimum exposure, because thats how you win.

#97 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 22 January 2015 - 05:53 AM

View PostTombstoner, on 21 January 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

Because alphas are ok in the eye of PGI. I presume its the difference between a shot gun sending 5 spheres down range for one shot and a smg sending 1 sphere per pull 5 times. Same damage if the spheres have the same mass and velocity.

I have come to accept that PGI will never understand what causes mechs to shut down: the difference between instantaneous heat at 30+ (heat capacity) vs. 30+ heat for 10 seconds of dissipation (TT, not solaris) ...... Maybe they do but feel a heat cap is a better system.... I think they where betting on making money from cool shots...... make all mechs run hot, but for a 50 cent consumable you can pop a can of cool and squeeze in that extra alpha for the kill. not pay to win exactly....

Not Just PGI. I am fine with Alphas. Its called knock out power. I wanna knock you out of the fight ASAP. Best way to do that? Hit you really really hard a couple times if necessary.

#98 Tombstoner

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Posted 22 January 2015 - 08:24 AM

View PostMatthias Malthias, on 22 January 2015 - 05:27 AM, said:


Thresholds of heat for X seconds, whilst a lot more faithful of an interpretation, would be too complex; optimising your damage output vs heat would require a metronome or a timer on the bottom corner of your screen.


Wish i had your writing skills.

Yes my post has some speculation on PGI motives.... thus a proportionate amounts of error. it is however not unreasonable to expect PGI to look for or engineer sources of renewable cash flow.

I don't think holding/displaying/interacting with a heat threshold across 10 seconds is unreasonable. I be-leave that time frame should be used to decide to perform an override with the 30 heat limit being automatic and unavoidable. All you need is to have the heat bar thats currently in pace show what your heat will be in 10 seconds. Fire off 10 heat worth of weapons and have a dissipation rate of 1/second and your heat bar shouldn't move.

This is important for the game because everything that mech is capable of is paid for in tonnage. having the ability to fire all weapons continuously is not a bad thing, as long as its balance by large damage spikes with high heat generation such that heat and damage are the same for a heat neutral mech over time. Heat neutrality should be a viable design goal since its paid for in tonnage that could go into more damage/speed/armor....

Heat neutrality makes the 3 ppc awesome a viable and effective design choice. That mech should be able to stand still and over watch firing non stop, accumulating 2 heat per heat frame(10 seconds) 15 times... yes that becomes 150 seconds or 2 minutes 30 seconds with 10 seconds of cooling back to 0 and start all over.The Dissipation time frame can be dilated to 30 seconds or more leaving a mech very very vulnerable at 29 heat provided heat dissipation rate/damage/heat generate is scaled properly. The mech would have to wait 30 seconds to be at zero heat.

If this is deemed too much then rates of fire and damage per shot need to be scaled directly to the time frame for heat dissipation.. this was not done in CB and is PGI's worst oversight. this resulted in a 250% increase in damage/heat output for the same 10 seconds. This could have been done correctly and resulted in a 0% increase in heat/damage. TTK would not have changed at all. Then double armor and TTK would have doubled.

#99 Lily from animove

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Posted 22 January 2015 - 08:30 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 22 January 2015 - 05:46 AM, said:


No one could spam more than 6 ERML before due to ghost heat, which was set at 6 from their introduction, and the increase from 5 to 6 heat was a clan vs IS balancing decision, so i dont see how it would be reverted, as that would mess with Clan vs IS balance (which this whole idea would anyway, as well as messing with missile/energy/ballistic balance)

It doesnt matter what you do - players will always seek out the best way to put maximum damage downrange with minimum exposure, because thats how you win.


the lasers wrere nefed because they had massive damage potential within a low time by being used in volleys, think DWF, TBR and Nova, they could spam high alpha after high alpha. the 20% heatnerf limited the usage from some initial high burst followed by a lot lower dps.

the 5CERML and 2 LPL vomitwolf was then by people reduced to 4 CERML and 2LPl, because the heattreshold was not allowing to fire 2 volleys anymore without oveheating. So you see heattreshold does affect laodouts. but the current cap is so massively high that people do not care about it. bring it down to 30 and poeple will build mechs different, lower alphas, more sustained dps.

#100 Hellcat420

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Posted 22 January 2015 - 09:19 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 16 January 2015 - 04:11 AM, said:



What about the fact that it is effectively a giganerf to energy boats and would make it a game of bring ballistics or go home?

its only a giganerf to alphastriking noobs who lack fire discipline.





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