27 replies to this topic

[ManDaisy]

http://library.think...all/small8.html

I wonder how many super snipers or... european longbowmen, will we encounter in MWO.

Considering we have constant force, unlike those 2d tank firing over hills games...

I think it will be quite easy to master once you figure out when each weapon begins to drop. Using your tilt measure in your hud marked for distances, you could have an ac 20 potentially hitting at 600m fairly regularly if you master it. I know mw4 longtom masters would enjoy this.

Edited by ManDaisy, 28 June 2012 - 10:34 AM.

[PirateNixon]

Assuming they implement the system that way. You also have to keep in mind that the rounds fired form a AC are traveling at speeds greater than their terminal velocity, so with air resistance, they will not have penetrative power at maximum range.

[Arafinar]

PirateNixon, on 28 June 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Assuming they implement the system that way. You also have to keep in mind that the rounds fired form a AC are traveling at speeds greater than their terminal velocity, so with air resistance, they will not have penetrative power at maximum range.

Ok you really need to explain this, have worked around RL arty units and your statement doesnt seem to hold water IMO.

Edited by Arafinar, 28 June 2012 - 10:41 AM.

[WardenWolf]

I think that would be a concern for stationary targets, but the speed at which mechs can move (and change direction), the travel time to go the distance you are talking about, and the relative size of what you are trying to hit at that distance... well, I think it will be much more effective at that point to be using LRMs that track instead of trying to drop AC20s on peoples heads

[BlindProphet]

Arafinar, on 28 June 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

Ok you really need to explain this, have worked around RL arty units and your statement doesnt seem to hold water IMO.

Arty != Direct fire ballistic weapons

[ManDaisy]

Still... it would be cool for anyone able to pull it off right?

[Grokmoo]

In all previous Mechwarrior games, realistic ballistics have not been used. MWO is almost certainly the same way.

Shots will travel in a straight line when you fire them. Ballistics and Lasers do reduced damage after their max range, and then do no damage at all. Missiles detonate after reaching max range.

[ManDaisy]

no its confirmed ballistics drop after a certain range. Laser... only do less damage over their max range.. ballasitcs drop but no dev statement on damage yet.

This bring about another question... if missiles detonate at max range, is it to cause splash damage or as a safety measure to not create any unintentional land mines. I've seen missiles hit the ground without detonating... which is counter intuitive to landmine prevention.

Also if you lock on at a running target at 650 meters, and that person is running away from you, the missiles shoudl then travel past 650 meters if they are chasing. What happens then?

Edited by ManDaisy, 28 June 2012 - 10:53 AM.

[Arafinar]

BlindProphet, on 28 June 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Arty != Direct fire ballistic weapons

maybe Im just dense today (got stung by wasps earlier today so a bit fuzzy)
Are you just defining arty, or what?

[WardenWolf]

ManDaisy, on 28 June 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Still... it would be cool for anyone able to pull it off right?

Yes, it would be. It would also likely result in people who are hit by such lucky shots crying about the shooter 'hacking' just because they didn't understand the physics of it. In the end, though, we will have to see how much drop off there is, what (if any) effect on damage, etc in order to know if this would work.

[aRottenKomquat]

He's claiming that the AC rounds will slow down due to air friction and by the time they reach the target they may have slowed so much as to not have any penetrating power anymore.

[PirateNixon]

Arafinar, on 28 June 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

Ok you really need to explain this, have worked around RL arty units and your statement doesnt seem to hold water IMO.

So a round slows down as it travels. That's why direct fire weapons have such shorter maximum effective ranges than indirect weaponry like howitzers. If that wasn't the case, don't you think the M1A1 would have at least a 45 degree cannon elevation capability so it could provide indirect fire support with it's 120mm cannon?

The direct fire support weapons are what is know as a kinetic energy weapon, meaning that it damages it's target by transferring the energy it has into the target. In order to make these weapons more damaging without having to increase their munition size, we've increased their muzzle velocity. These muzzle velocities are faster than the round would travel if dropped from any height, thus they are faster than the rounds terminal velocity. This means they will slow down as they travel through the air as the air resistance is greater than the force of gravity.

Indirect fire support weapons work on multiple principles, including kinetic and explosive munitions. Your 155mm Howitzer is not just firing a heavy piece of metal at it's target, it is launching a high explosive charge that will detonate delivering it's damage. Yes, a 155mm slug would do damage, but significantly less than a 155mm high explosive round.

Edited by PirateNixon, 28 June 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[ManDaisy]

Which begs the question.. when will we get exploding ac rounds instead of conventional rounds for the standard AC? Hmm with all the different alternative ammos available for the standard AC, we could have ammo that could do this and ammo that could not.

Edited by ManDaisy, 28 June 2012 - 11:09 AM.

[Arafinar]

PirateNixon, on 28 June 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

So a round slows down as it travels. That's why direct fire weapons have such shorter maximum effective ranges than indirect weaponry like howitzers. If that wasn't the case, don't you think the M1A1 would have at least a 45 degree cannon elevation capability so it could provide indirect fire support with it's 120mm cannon?

The direct fire support weapons are what is know as a kinetic energy weapon, meaning that it damages it's target by transferring the energy it has into the target. In order to make these weapons more damaging without having to increase their munition size, we've increased their muzzle velocity. These muzzle velocities are faster than the round would travel if dropped from any height, thus they are faster than the rounds terminal velocity. This means they will slow down as they travel through the air as the air resistance is greater than the force of gravity.

Indirect fire support weapons work on multiple principles, including kinetic and explosive munitions. Your 155mm Howitzer is not just firing a heavy piece of metal at it's target, it is launching a high explosive charge that will detonate delivering it's damage. Yes, a 155mm slug would do damage, but significantly less than a 155mm high explosive round.

Ok we'll go with the 155mm since thats what Im used to dealing with they travel at around 800mps which is around 1790 mph.
No Im not talkin charge 7 whitebag. It peaks at that, the loss of round speed you have at the top of the arc
is negligible so the loss of penetration(which is what I thought you might be talkin about) would be almost as negligible aswell.

Also are we talking maximum range or maximum effective? sometimes they get confused.


(edit) I put fps instead mps,

Edited by Arafinar, 28 June 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[Jost]

Arafinar, on 28 June 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

Ok you really need to explain this, have worked around RL arty units and your statement doesnt seem to hold water IMO.

I've now said this often enough that may make something like this my signature: Arguing from real-world physics in BT is a mug's game. Truly, I understand the urge to do so. But it's an endeavor doomed to failure. As enjoyable as BT/TT/MWO is, there's no way to make huge chunks of the game hold water. My recommendation is to just go with it.

[Glythe]

I seriously hope the Gauss rifle does not drop as it is fired and does not deal reduced damage over range. That is what you would expect from the Autocannon 20 but it is NOT suitable for a super fast fired projectile like the Gauss rifle.

[Arafinar]

Jost, on 28 June 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

I've now said this often enough that may make something like this my signature: Arguing from real-world physics in BT is a mug's game. Truly, I understand the urge to do so. But it's an endeavor doomed to failure. As enjoyable as BT/TT/MWO is, there's no way to make huge chunks of the game hold water. My recommendation is to just go with it.

I believe HE and I were discussin the real world physics as they are, not as they relate to BT MW or any of the other incarnations.
So make your sig and have a nice life

[fluffypinkbunny]

So basically you stole the OP's conversation about will it be possible to make the shots go longer, or will the shots stop at a specfic range.

[Arafinar]

fluffypinkbunny, on 28 June 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

So basically you stole the OP's conversation about will it be possible to make the shots go longer, or will the shots stop at a specfic range.

Block function works, give it a whirl......

[FactorlanP]

Glythe, on 28 June 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

I seriously hope the Gauss rifle does not drop as it is fired and does not deal reduced damage over range. That is what you would expect from the Autocannon 20 but it is NOT suitable for a super fast fired projectile like the Gauss rifle.

You realize, I hope, that gravity acts on any projectile as soon as it leaves the barrel. The amount of drop is a factor of how quickly the projectile arrives at the target, but the drop due to gravity is a constant rate. Since all projectiles must spend some amount of time traveling to target, they all drop, at least some.