465 replies to this topic

[Sarlic]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 January 2015 - 03:06 AM, said:

If we had no customization, do you know what would happen? The game would zero in on the handful of reasonably well designed mechs in all of BT and every single other chassis would be useless. You think we have lack of variety now?
Also - clans. Their stock mechs are for the most part decent(ish) builds and would roflstomp IS stock mechs in 99% of cases without trying, meaning for balance youd have to run something like 10 clan vs 16 IS = 99.999923% of people choose clan because everyone wants to be the hero, not the zergling.

plus customisation is half the fun

The TDR with only ERPPC is such a original build. I could never though of that! So much variety on all ranges. Really: top notch customizing here. Or the Stalker with packed with only LL. This one is hella of customise!
Or the Assault, the mighty Direwolf packed with only UAC5's. I can see the LRMs coming off from that thing. Or a laser?!
Stormcrows with facehugging streaks. O man, so much variety.
In the end our lovely scouts. Packed with only a SMPLs they are a well adidition on scouting or rolewarfaring on all ranges.

There are far more mechs with these kind of pack and act full of customized builds.
Yes gentleman, this is pure hard customizing right here.

Bottomline:

No offense, there is one solution to weed out this kind of crap. And that solution has been discussed alot. I hope PGI will move someday to it. No more mechs or builds obsoleted.
If you don't know what solution i am talking about then your probaly one of the guys i explained in my first alinea.

Edited by Sarlic, 19 January 2015 - 03:31 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Nutlink, on 19 January 2015 - 01:54 AM, said:

You would have a lot of crying and complaining, but I think they would have survived just fine. MPBT 3025 wasn't going to feature it, yet the beta is widely considered one of the best MW experiences to date. Then the mod, MWLL, didn't have it either and that had some of the best balance between weapons and mechs (and yes, they did make some changes to some variants weaponry and such, but for the most part it was relatively faithful to BT).

so why did it not made it out of the beta? Bets experience for who? some TT lore fetischictsts or the people wanting to play MW?
I didn't even heard of it, so can't be as awesome as you described. So it got probably hyped more amongts a tight community as it truly had substance.

The system we have now is good, all it needs is proper balance, abominations like the TDR are wrong, when they make other emchs obsolete, and this also counts for the SCR and TBR. they need some nerfs, but it will make a lot people qq qho use that emchs on daily base as a built in success crutch.

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 January 2015 - 03:24 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I do think it's funny that an 8 SPLaser Firestarter seems fair, especially when they didn't give the Locust 3M better quirks than 5 SPLasers.

So a Locust is so much superior to a Firestarter that the Firestarter needs 3 extra SPLasers to compete against the awesome fury of the Locust? Oh please!

The Firestarter SPLaser boat was a bit much, and I have a feeling someone partial to Firestarters in the quirk process snuck that gem past everyone else.

[Widowmaker1981]

Sarlic, on 19 January 2015 - 03:21 AM, said:

The TDR with only ERPPC is such a original build. I could never though of that! So much variety on all ranges. Really: top notch customizing here. Or the Stalker with packed with only LL. This one is hella of customise!
Or the Assault, the mighty Direwolf packed with only UAC5's. I can see the LRMs coming off from that thing. Or a laser?!
Stormcrows with facehugging streaks. O man, so much variety.
In the end our lovely scouts. Packed with only a SMPLs they are a well adidition on scouting or rolewarfaring on all ranges.

There are far more mechs with these kind of pack and act full of customized builds.
Yes gentleman, this is pure hard customizing right here.

Bottomline:

No offense, there is one solution to weed out this kind of crap. And that solution has been discussed alot. I hope PGI will move someday to it. No more mechs or builds obsoleted.
If you don't know what solution i am talking about then your probaly one of the guys i explained in my first alinea.

You want everyone forced into terrible builds with like 1 UAC5, 2 Medium lasers, an LRM 10 and 2 SRMs that are not only very hard to drive effectively due to no weapon synergy, they also have a low potential even driven as best they can be. What you fail to realise is that even if you take all customisation away people STILL will NOT drive these mechs, they will go for the mechs that boat only 1 or 2 weapon systems in TT (eg WHK-Prime) - since that is what is effective and efficient to control. All it does is reduce variety of chassis.

[Sarlic]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 January 2015 - 03:54 AM, said:

You want everyone forced into terrible builds with like 1 UAC5, 2 Medium lasers, an LRM 10 and 2 SRMs that are not only very hard to drive effectively due to no weapon synergy, they also have a low potential even driven as best they can be. What you fail to realise is that even if you take all customisation away people STILL will NOT drive these mechs, they will go for the mechs that boat only 1 or 2 weapon systems in TT (eg WHK-Prime) - since that is what is effective and efficient to control. All it does is reduce variety of chassis.

You fail to see the solution. As i have expected. I never talked about taking the whole customizing away.
Come back when you have found it. Honestly it's not hard to think of.

Edited by Sarlic, 19 January 2015 - 04:09 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Sarlic, on 19 January 2015 - 04:03 AM, said:

You fail to see the solution. As i have expected. I never talked about taking the whole customizing away.
Come back when you have found it. Honestly it's not hard to think of.

Sized Hardpoints? pretty much the same thing. Some variants will have the large hardpoints or enough small ones that those will be the go to.

Fixed convergence? Yes. great. this would be awesome - according to PGI its not technically possible with HSR though, so we have to live with instant convergence..

Or is it something else you are referring to?

[Sjorpha]

I often record my games for self critique, and this has taught me that most of my "hitreg issues" are just a failure of aiming, It feels like you should have hit when you are playing, but when you look at the video you realize that you actually missed those shots. This mismatch between percieved and real performance is further increased when shooting at mechs with good hitboxes.

So I don't trust ANY reports of "hitreg issues" that arent supported by video evidence. And in case of high ping against high speed targets, people just have to get used to compensate by aiming slightly in front of their targets. It's an artefact of server side hitreg that you just have to learn to adjust for.

Firestarter hitboxes aren't broken, they're just good. And it doesn't have any extreme quirks either.

Jenners need a little something, armour buff to CT is a good idea I think. Ravens should have their invisible legs shrinked back to the actual model size. Spiders...maybe a slight improvement to the weapon quirks across the board. Commandos and locusts are alright, their weakness is part of the flavour and too extreme quirks just gets ridiculous.

[GumbyC2C]

I don't want it nerfed. I just want it to actually take the damage when I hit the thing. Fix that and the rest will work itself out.

[Jon Gotham]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 18 January 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

engine cap nerf would be cool, maybe it will fix the hit reg issues that it seems to be able to abuse so easily, 260 engine for 120-130KPH should still be a good top peed for the firestarter.

I don't think it's just the firestarter that has hit reg issues.
I've slammed a TBT in the back with FOUR TIMES more damage then it has internals...when it was on orange armourless CT to start with.....
Last night a magic HBK 4P who took no less than SIX quad large laser salvos to his already armourless CT.....
Catapault who took EIGHT twin PPC hits at 250-120m and no less than TWENTY twin medium lasers hits to his front Ct.....still alive afterwards.....the list goes on.

hit reg recently has gone majorly awry.


*edit typo monkey got out again*

Edited by kamiko kross, 19 January 2015 - 06:27 AM.

[Insects]

It was 1% before I decided to screenshot it, hovering around 1% to 5% while I was playing.

The million MC question. If they are so OP why is nobody playing lights?

Plenty of people obviously just want lights to be fodder for their easy kills or spot for their LRM's and get all upset when the class is marginally competitive.

Do the firestarter hit boxes magically deflect lazers back at opposition like Jedi? Or could it be that people have bad aim and blast each other frantically trying to get the cookie?

[FupDup]

joelmuzz, on 19 January 2015 - 07:02 AM, said:

It was 1% before I decided to screenshot it, hovering around 1% to 5% while I was playing.

The million MC question. If they are so OP why is nobody playing lights?

Plenty of people obviously just want lights to be fodder for their easy kills or spot for their LRM's and get all upset when the class is marginally competitive.

Do the firestarter hit boxes magically deflect lazers back at opposition like Jedi? Or could it be that people have bad aim and blast each other frantically trying to get the cookie?

To be fair, the queue numbers do fluctuate with time...but overall lights are almost always the lowest class, or sometimes second lowest if mediums manage to dip under it (not that often).

Heavies have pretty much always been bloated, probably because of their special blend of firepower/armor/mobility while other classes usually need to make some sort of design compromise.


I have more queue screenshots of my own (from the past) to add more fuel to the fire.








Role Warfare™ (not) working as intended.

[operatorZ]

joelmuzz, on 19 January 2015 - 07:02 AM, said:

It was 1% before I decided to screenshot it, hovering around 1% to 5% while I was playing.

The million MC question. If they are so OP why is nobody playing lights?

Plenty of people obviously just want lights to be fodder for their easy kills or spot for their LRM's and get all upset when the class is marginally competitive.

Do the firestarter hit boxes magically deflect lazers back at opposition like Jedi? Or could it be that people have bad aim and blast each other frantically trying to get the cookie?

This is an obvious misdirection of the argument, as the assumption that everybody would play them if they were OP ignores many other factors that would lead people to not play light mechs in general. This line of argument is constantly used by people wishing to redirect the "Firestarter is OP" conversation into a greater "role warfare" argument...the two are not the same and are generally unrelated in a logical sense.

Edited by operatorZ, 19 January 2015 - 07:30 AM.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 19 January 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

Role Warfare™ (not) working as intended.

Maybe people just don't like that role?

I think people's expectations of "role warfare" are pretty out of proportion with the style of game this is.

Don't get me wrong I think there is improvement to be made, but if you want something like "real scouting" the maps would need to be 10x larger minimum - do you think people want to play a game where they need 10 minutes just to maybe find the enemy?


There is a reason we all charge the largest landmark…

[MeiSooHaityu]

Here is roll warfare..

Light mechs are the only mechs that can use scouting/support modules.

Such as...
*UAVs
*Airstrike/Artilery
*Extended sensor range (maybe allow all for missile boats)


Maybe a few others. Now the light scouts and marks targets for air support. There is your start to defining lights as role warfare mechs.

[Ultimax]

MeiSooHaityu, on 19 January 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

Here is roll warfare..

Light mechs are the only mechs that can use scouting/support modules.

Such as...
*UAVs
*Airstrike/Artilery
*Extended sensor range (maybe allow all for missile boats)


Maybe a few others. Now the light scouts and marks targets for air support. There is your start to defining lights as role warfare mechs.

Thats needing your hand held.

I scout at the start of matches, using speed to quickly figure out where the enemy is going or what priority targets there might be.

I harass enemy bigs and defend mine from enemy harassers.

I look for weakened targets or those badly out of position and remove them.


My light mech has a role and doesn't need special module access or hand holding to do it.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 19 January 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

Maybe people just don't like that role?

I think people's expectations of "role warfare" are pretty out of proportion with the style of game this is.

Don't get me wrong I think there is improvement to be made, but if you want something like "real scouting" the maps would need to be 10x larger minimum - do you think people want to play a game where they need 10 minutes just to maybe find the enemy?


There is a reason we all charge the largest landmark…

Part of the problem with the landmark phenomenon is that most other parts of those maps are boring except for those landmarks. The Mordor PugZapper™ is a fine example of this, where the location is often used poorly but everywhere else on the map is just so bland. It's the only interesting place, and unfortunately also a place where its design can seduce players into making mistakes...


As for scouting/recon/stuff, some expanded quirks and an additional mechanic might help with this. Mechs designated as "scouts" or whatever would have quirks along the following lines...

1. Increased sensor range

2. Reduced radar "footprint" (harder to detect by enemies, more likely to remain in stealth)

3. Built-in Radar Derp and Target Decay, for keeping track of and slipping away from enemies (can also stack with the modules for a bigger effect)

4. There was once an idea for a module that allowed a mech to target multiple enemies at the same time instead of just one. This needs to be an integrated quirk into specialized recon mechs, with the ability to hold at least 2-3+ locks (depending on how weak the mech is, more as needed) at the same time.


The increased target decay, combined with being able to hold multiple locks at the same time, would allow the scout to grab several red doritos from the enemy team and then quickly vanish, and the red doritos would remain for several moments to give their team a quick glimpse of where the red team was. If the decay was set to at least 6+ seconds, I think that would be enough of a window for that information to make a difference, and be somewhat useful to their team.

It would basically be like a periodic "human UAV" of sorts, but mobile and able to somewhat defend itself. Also longer lasting, provided that it doesn't dun goof...


Or we can just weapon quirk the crap out of mechs like the Lolcust instead. Either or.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Ultimatum X, on 19 January 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

Thats needing your hand held.

I scout at the start of matches, using speed to quickly figure out where the enemy is going or what priority targets there might be.

I harass enemy bigs and defend mine from enemy harassers.

I look for weakened targets or those badly out of position and remove them.


My light mech has a role and doesn't need special module access or hand holding to do it.

I pilot lights too without special modules. That's not the point.

With a Light queue of less than 10% regularly, maybe the majority of the playerbase needs incentives. This is one possible way to do it.

Can't balance the game around the occasional awesome light player, we need to help promote the class to other players.

[Lily from animove]

joelmuzz, on 19 January 2015 - 07:02 AM, said:

It was 1% before I decided to screenshot it, hovering around 1% to 5% while I was playing.

The million MC question. If they are so OP why is nobody playing lights?

Plenty of people obviously just want lights to be fodder for their easy kills or spot for their LRM's and get all upset when the class is marginally competitive.

Do the firestarter hit boxes magically deflect lazers back at opposition like Jedi? Or could it be that people have bad aim and blast each other frantically trying to get the cookie?

why? show me 8 valid and well working builds for every ligh chassis out there?

lights are boring they have the harrasser or the hill humping sniper builds. and thats nearly all they are.
+ lights require a good rig, when you have low fps and stutters lights are a pain to use. this already excludes a good part of the playerbase to even be able to use them properly.

I really like my 2 PPC adder and my 4 srm 6 Adder, but in the end, playing Nova is more what I prefer.

So the real question i what could PGI do to make some people play lights? some kind of random daily activities? like kill 10 mechs in a light. achieve 5 tag kills in a light. ect. This could be used for some underpopulated chassis classes to make them more wanted to be played.

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 January 2015 - 08:20 AM.

[Mechteric]

I found I usually did more damage in my Jenner D (4 ML, 2 SRM4) than I did in my firestarters. Additionaly, my Jenner F with 6 MLs has a higher K/D than my firestarters as well.

I think I prefer the Jenner in generally mostly because its weapon hardpoints are higher up on its body, where the firestarters are around its midsection.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 19 January 2015 - 08:20 AM.

[Kain Demos]

Sarlic, on 18 January 2015 - 05:01 AM, said:

When most of the FS are slamming the such original build with only SMPL which has combined with their hardpoints a massive DPS then something is wrong.

Like the Streakcrows. I call them 'copies' because in see them like this FS build alot.

Would not be surprised if both gets nerfed.

The two are related. I only run the Streak Crow in CW to counteract all of these lights with 150 kph speed and high dps. It sucks too bad against everything else to bring to the normal queue.

Edited by Kain Thul, 19 January 2015 - 08:21 AM.