112 replies to this topic

[Bluttrunken]

As a neutral bystander I strongly disagree with this proposal for obvious reasons.

[Repasy Cooper]

Prussian Havoc, on 09 March 2015 - 10:57 AM, said:

CSR [a favorite of mine for its cutting edge (though late in delivery - See Leviathan) Naval Forces] did indeed favor a bifurcated approach to the question of, "Warden / Crusader?"

"Clan Snow Raven chose to follow neither path, instead choosing a "best of both worlds" path, combining the Crusaders' drive and the Wardens' patience, quite arguably to great effect." - http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4244844

Wooord...

Anybody else who likes this philosophy can group up wit me.

Edited by Repasy, 09 March 2015 - 12:02 PM.

[Noesis]

Two opposing ideals as a guiding philosophy = unification?

[CyclonerM]

Noesis, on 09 March 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

Two opposing ideals as a guiding philosophy = unification?

But same target to achieve different goals = (temporary) unification

Edited by CyclonerM, 09 March 2015 - 01:41 PM.

[Noesis]

CyclonerM, on 09 March 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

But same target to achieve different goals = (temporary) unification

So this is a big case of the ends justifies the means?

I see how that can exist for the clans (in an ideal Operation Revival?), but again the philosophies of that process conflict so it is not a real unification. There is still segregation or differences associated, and thus two distinct groups as a result.

I will try to look for the shades of grey I guess.

[Repasy Cooper]

Noesis, on 09 March 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

So this is a big case of the ends justifies the means?

I see how that can exist for the clans (in an ideal Operation Revival?), but again the philosophies of that process conflict so it is not a real unification. There is still segregation or differences associated, and thus two distinct groups as a result.

I will try to look for the shades of grey I guess.

CSR follows a mix of both philosophy, but that does not mean there's a 50/50 split on ideologies within the clan (if this were the case we would have seen a similar scenario to the Crusader Wolf / Warden Wolf schism that resulted in the christening of Wolf-in-Exile).

The one and only philosophy of CSR takes the good from warden & crusader, and leaves the bad. But more precisely, this philosophy is an ever-changing philosophy of convenience, so it might be more correct to say that CSR follows neither philosophy. They are Crusader when it is convenient, and they are Warden when it is convenient, but the paramount priority of CSR is ultimately to STAY ALIVE. Every choice they make is steeped in machiavellian politics, every military engagement is to their advantage. and every business deal ensures that they continue to sit on the precipice of technological superiority and assured survival. And mark these words, by NO means will CSR EVER allow a philosophy to blindly lead them to anihilation, as it has with others.

So you see, CSR is strong, UNITED, and completely loyal only to themselves. They are referred to sometimes as "The Unkindness", attributing their close-knit community to a gathering of birds with near-absolute distrust of outsiders. With the exception of our competitive Watch agents, there is no internal discord in CSR.

In any case, the Snow Ravens are sometimes classified as Warden, as this philosophy in general is less self-destructive. So if you haaad to classify us, we'd prefer Warden I suppose...

EDIT:

Well, having touched upon the distrustful nature of CSR, they have always been quite loyal to their allies in the past... so FEAR NOT ALLIES... lol...

A Snow Raven's trust is difficultly earned and easily lost, but ne'er betrayed.

Edited by Repasy, 09 March 2015 - 08:07 PM.

[Noesis]

Repasy, on 09 March 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

Every choice they make is steeped in machiavellian politics.

Gaming the system is not actually holding to any ideal anyhow. And being self concerned hardly lends to unified relations.

[Repasy Cooper]

ah i c. If you were referring to the Clans as a whole, initially there was only one philosophy, to follow the will of Kerensky. Over time interpretation disrupts all ideas, so the two Clan philosophies are merely the result of that: Time. What I was trying to convey is that Snow Raven has strayed the least when compared to other clans, they have the foresight to ensure self-preservation (*cough*jaguarscouldhaveusedthis*cough*).

It's true that these conflicting philosophies create a schism between the Clans as a whole, however military restrictions such as Zell and Batchall have ensured that conflicts inflict minimal collateral & economic damage. These structural regulations play a huge role when analyzing inter-Clan unity. After all, the class segregation (which led to the scientist-caste uprising) was FAR MORE dangerous than philosophical segregation. If I had to choose a major fault of the Clans, I'd focus on the caste system, not philosophies.

Think of it like Republicans and Democrats. We all like to rap on how they're out to sabotage the other and never get anything done, but this counter balance ensures that neither stray too far from the 'idea' of protecting the Inner Sphere. From itself.

If Clans all followed one philosophy to the book, this is dangerous as the idea can change over time and eventually become completely distorted, and it may never find its way back to origin. The Warden and Crusader philosophies may conflict, but they still gravitate to the same original idea. I much prefer that to the feudalistic structure of the Houses.

[Noesis]

Ultimatley the SLDF philosophy is understandable, if it is the case of then winning the peace in order to re-establish a new era for mankind of propsperity and peace that then allows for technological and social achievement. But winning the peace is the hardest element of warfare.

The Warden / Crusader issues will always create a dissonance amongst the Clans and as you say would not be helpful as a guiding influence to unity concerns. Likewise as you say the caste system again also serves to cause division.

But you are right in that Zellbrigen is something that is shared as a code between the Clans. In fact very much like say a system of chivalry it could help to establish a collected meaning of fraternity for the Clans as a whole. The Grand Council then actually reminiscent of the round table model associated with the Knights of Arthurian legend. Also with Khans existing in Clans they are not too disimilar in their feudalistic "overlord" approach really.

However, I would have to agree that a Clan unity model (with any collected philosophy) could be better built using Zellbrigen as its foundations since it is a unifying element that all the Clans share.

[CyclonerM]

Noesis, on 09 March 2015 - 11:37 PM, said:

Also with Khans existing in Clans they are not too disimilar in their feudalistic "overlord" approach really.

Khans are more tribal leaders. If you are looking for feudal lords, you are looking obviously for the IS Great Houses, their leaders and their vassals.

[Prussian Havoc]

k05h3lk1n, on 09 March 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

As a neutral bystander I strongly disagree with this proposal for obvious reasons.

Clearly understandable... but please consider, what is good for the Clan Goose, is also good for the House Gander!

Edited by Prussian Havoc, 14 March 2015 - 09:56 PM.

[Euphoric1RW]

What is this? Unity, there will be no unity, lol, are you serious, hehe!

Edited by Vance Rezak, 23 March 2015 - 07:57 PM.

[Prussian Havoc]

Prussian Havoc, on 19 January 2015 - 04:38 PM, said:

Greetings fellow Trothkin both near and far,

All Clans have been provided an opportunity this night (EST.)

The recently CSJ-contracted Inner Sphere Mercenary Alliance (ISMA) Mercenary Corps Units of 228, Remnant and QQ have so augmented CSJ attacks on House Kurita that Smoke Jaguar finds itself tonight with no acceptable Attack Options.

Fortuitously House Kurita and FRR have chosen to not contest our two Smoke Jaguar planets vulnerable to them this Ceasefire Cycle.

Thus ALL Smoke Jaguar CW drops this evening will be toward the Common Defense of those Clan planets now under attack by the Inner Sphere: the Clan Ghost Bear world of Sheliak, the Clan Wolf world of The Edge and the Clan Jade Falcon world of Waldorff. Please refer to this link to assist in determining your best options to find a CW match: https://mrbcleague.com/cw/index.html#

I have already executed 6 such drops, 3 in support of Clan Wolf, 2 in support of Clan Ghost Bear and one in support of Clan Jade Falcon.

I will add further drops as I should have another 6 Clan Common Defense Drops before I finish gaming for the night.


And I would be greatly remiss if I did not attribute this unexpected and unsolicited Clan Smoke Jaguar opportunity to help our Trothkin to those ISMA Units currently under CSJ contract. It is their additive combat value that affords us all this opportunity for a display of Clan Unity.


LET NO CLAN PLANET FALL TO THE INNER SPHERE THIS CEASEFIRE CYCLE.


And as we conclude this cycle I will look to best summarize the results of our efforts this evening.

And while tonight it is Clan Smoke Jaguar that finds itself with the opportunity to contribute PHASE ONE of OPERATION CLAN UNITY, perhaps tomorrow it will be Clan Ghost Bear, or next week Clan Jade Falcon or Clan Wolf who will be in such a position to contribute a maximum effort to OPN CLAN UNITY.

When you really stop to consider it, an effort like this makes great sense.

Why should four Clans fight largely four separate fights with only fair to good results, if we can collectively sometimes manage to free up an entire Clan to augment our Trothkin and achieve overwhelming success on ALL four Invasion Corridors?

The future & the liberation of Terra need not lead to inter-Clan tensions and unClan-like duplicity. Let us fight the Inner Sphere that PGI's MWO CW algorithm sets before us. ALL of us could rush with OPN CLAN UNITY toward Terrra and then once the first Clan is but a single planet away, our various Clan Leaders can common TeamSpeak and the three dozen or so of them figure it out at that time.

I for one advocate for Clan Unity today, in order to ensure Inner Sphere abdication of Terra tomorrow...


...unlike the failings of lore, I consider myself a Member of the Clans first and a Smoke Jaguar ALWAYS. The best way I as an MWO gamer can contribute to MWO Community Warfare is to advocate for those topics that I believe will strengthen my Clan which will in-turn strengthen ALL Clans.

OPN CLAN UNITY accomplishes both intents, strengthens Clan Smoke Jaguar while strengthening ALL Clans currently in game (Oh, how I can't wait for the full measure of Clans to return to the Inner Sphere, so many Clan strengths will be augmented and a similar number of Clan vulnerabilities will be resolved.)

But much of that remains to the future...

...for today, I still have 6 drops or more to make in support to of my Trothkin in Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon.





Good luck and good hunting,

Meet you on the (Terran) high ground,

May your Enemy's resolve fail him, long before your last auto-Cannon shell slams home in the breech!

As we move forward into a Post-SteamLaunch MWO we can expect a map rest on/about 10DEC. Just as in the above example, we will certainly again have an opportunity to focus on liberating Inner Sphere planets (House Kurita) and then coming to the assistance of our Trothkin throughout the Clan's Invasion Corridor. Join me in once again revitalizing Operation Clan Unity.