480 replies to this topic

[Midori No Ryuu]

Egomane, on 21 January 2015 - 04:35 AM, said:

They are not! They are giving you planets to attack. It's up to each individual player if he wants to make that attack or not.

And I don't see "whole factions" wanting something. I see a bunch of players declaring themself as THE FACTION. They are not. All they are doing is informal and at best appliable on a unit level. They can not force their will on others, who don't want to follow their lead. They have no authority to lead. They might claim it, but they still don't have it.

I understand some of your point, I don't want some wannabe 16 year old dictator in training telling me how to play a game. That said, it is Community Ware-fare not "individual" war-fare and I can vote with my feet if I don't like the faction i am playing with or don't agree with it's goals.

If you(read PGI) require factions as a prerequisite of playing the mode, then there is an understanding that teamwork will be part of the overall experience. Some of the players complaining loudest about being told what to do are telling their units (mini factions?) what to do, such is life.

Leadership is earned, if players in this "Game" want to follow a leader to whatever ends then that should be their option. If you want to attack wherever you want to then that is certainly a choice at the moment, there needs to be a corresponding choice to defend anywhere your faction is attacking. Those who just want to "Play" CW could drop against each other for fun as they see fit, "practicing" or just enjoying the mode while those into a more RP frame of mind could counteract what they see as a breach of their faction goals.

This should achieve the oft stated goal of wanting to play however individuals want to without subjecting everyone to the whim of whoever thinks they are in charge that week and increase the amount of potential matches because "Loyalists" could defend against those pesky faction hopping "Mercs" attacking their "Allies" boarder from within.

[Willard Phule]

Dracol, on 21 January 2015 - 05:04 AM, said:

What about those players who have only been introduced to Battletech via Mechwarrior Online? They may just queue up in a wolf/bear queue to play clan v clan. Should they be required to jump through hops to do that?

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2015 - 05:10 AM, said:

Then when the players with the background ask them to not attack an Ally what should the new player do? I would say ask if they can continue or who is a fair target for the Faction.

You know, I get what you're saying with regard to the IS factions....and, for the most part, I agree with you.

You have to keep in mind, however, that certain things that were SUPPOSED to have have happened never did. We've been over this before. If the Federated Commonwealth existed like it is supposed to, then a lot of the Steiner/Davion stuff wouldn't be happening.

That's not my biggest point, however.

My biggest point is that the Clans should NOT be attacking each other during the invasion. Ever.

Unlike the Inner Sphere, the Clans have a "supreme military commander" called the Ilkhan. Each invading Clan is given an invasion corridor and orders with regard to how to move forward. Clans can't "go rogue" and attack each other. That tends to end poorly for the rogue unit....they tend to be the target of a Trial of Absorbtion. Ask the Widowmakers and Wolverines about that.

As for people making alt accounts to sandbag another faction, personally I'd rather see someone take an active role in preventing this....but, considering that the only logical choice would be PGI....I'd rather not. Their track record of doing ANYTHING at all is less than stellar.

If you can't stop it from happening, then the only way to fight fire is with fire. If it is acceptable behavior by PGI standards, then there's nothing stopping ANY organized unit from trolling the opposition. If it's good enough for the goose, it's good enough for the gander.

[Joseph Mallan]

Willard Phule, on 21 January 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

You know, I get what you're saying with regard to the IS factions....and, for the most part, I agree with you.

You have to keep in mind, however, that certain things that were SUPPOSED to have have happened never did. We've been over this before. If the Federated Commonwealth existed like it is supposed to, then a lot of the Steiner/Davion stuff wouldn't be happening.

That's not my biggest point, however.

My biggest point is that the Clans should NOT be attacking each other during the invasion. Ever.

Unlike the Inner Sphere, the Clans have a "supreme military commander" called the Ilkhan. Each invading Clan is given an invasion corridor and orders with regard to how to move forward. Clans can't "go rogue" and attack each other. That tends to end poorly for the rogue unit....they tend to be the target of a Trial of Absorbtion. Ask the Widowmakers and Wolverines about that.

As for people making alt accounts to sandbag another faction, personally I'd rather see someone take an active role in preventing this....but, considering that the only logical choice would be PGI....I'd rather not. Their track record of doing ANYTHING at all is less than stellar.

If you can't stop it from happening, then the only way to fight fire is with fire. If it is acceptable behavior by PGI standards, then there's nothing stopping ANY organized unit from trolling the opposition. If it's good enough for the goose, it's good enough for the gander.

The ilKhan does not monitor the trails Of Possession/Refusal/Whatever. They are a Might makes right society.

[Midori No Ryuu]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2015 - 05:10 AM, said:

I think the ones who are against nefarious actions are trying to go beyond what PGI has in place just as much as those who are. The thing I see is that there is little to nothing that those who WANT alliances can do to stop it.

Unless like I asked before, Can a Steiner Unit defend a Davion world against Steiner Attackers?

They should be able to (Steiners defend a Davion world against Steiner Attackers), you can't currently, but as I said in my previous post this would allow the game-play to expand and give tools to the faction that wants to honor treaties and such as well as allow the continued play-style that others are arguing for.

[Dracol]

Willard Phule, on 21 January 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

-snip for size-

I appreciate the lore, I do, but we're not recreating the clan invasion. Clan v Clan battles are good, balanced games that are really enjoyable.

Clan v Clan also adds more depth besides Clans just attacking IS. The political opportunities presented by the system have been enjoyed by many. Make clans in essence just one giant clan, and you remove a big part of CW (politics) from the Clan players who have been enjoying it.

[Wildstreak]

Dracol, on 21 January 2015 - 04:44 AM, said:

It presents opportunities to participate in politics for those inclined. First, intel on who is attacking needs to be gathered. Then reaching out to them to try to establish friendly dialogue. It gives a chance for a faction to reach out to new units. It also tests the political savvy of those who are creating the ceasefires. Can they reassure their allies that they are up holding their agreement?

It can also represent the dirtier elements of the Battletech universe. Pirate attacks, black ops, false flag, rogue planetary leaders, and planetary civil wars.

Actually no because some of those elements are missing.

If a rogue group goes against the larger Faction, in other games there were tools to deal with it including CBT. When the Skye Separatists tried breaking off form House Steiner, Steiner and later the FC were able to send forces to deal with it.

Here is some group goes against those who set themselves up as an authority, there is no method for the 'Faction leadership" to deal with it. The attacks on Graham IV the "official" Steiner leadership did not agree to cannot be dealt with by Steiner. Clanners attacking Clanners cannot be fought against and so on.

So PGI will have to come up with a method of allowing this if you want to claim real politics is involved.
Allow the sacking of worlds belonging to units "breaking the House rules." If Team A-Hole is under Liao and attacks Marik breaking a ceasefire, Loyalist Liao should be allowed to sack A-Hole's "owned" worlds in Liao space. If those worlds are taken, Team A-Hole gets tossed out of Liao.

Without that, you do not have true political opportunities.

[Joseph Mallan]

Egomane, on 21 January 2015 - 04:35 AM, said:

They are not! They are giving you planets to attack. It's up to each individual player if he wants to make that attack or not.

And I don't see "whole factions" wanting something. I see a bunch of players declaring themself as THE FACTION. They are not. All they are doing is informal and at best appliable on a unit level. They can not force their will on others, who don't want to follow their lead. They have no authority to lead. They might claim it, but they still don't have it.

Well since a faction is a part of a whole, They are in fact A faction, Now if they are are the dominant faction is to be determined. And if the players going against one faction or another they should be ready for repercussions, from those who don't agree. So instead of Houses (Factions) warring against one another, we will have a bunch of Civil Wars. Cause there are no rules.

This Game was Pitched as teh Clan Invasion not the Succession Wars.

[Egomane]

Wildstreak, on 21 January 2015 - 05:44 AM, said:

Here is some group goes against those who set themselves up as an authority, there is no method for the 'Faction leadership" to deal with it. The attacks on Graham IV the "unofficial" Steiner leadership did not agree to cannot be dealt with by Steiner. Clanners attacking Clanners cannot be fought against and so on.

Fixed that for you!

As you yourself said, they simply set themself up as an authority, so they can not be official.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gramr, on 21 January 2015 - 05:39 AM, said:

They should be able to (Steiners defend a Davion world against Steiner Attackers), you can't currently, but as I said in my previous post this would allow the game-play to expand and give tools to the faction that wants to honor treaties and such as well as allow the continued play-style that others are arguing for.

Then PGI needs to fix this. And they also need to put in place those House Units that once were talked about. So things like this can be handled by the House.

[Egomane]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

Well since a faction is a part of a whole, They are in fact A faction, Now if they are are the dominant faction is to be determined. And if the players going against one faction or another they should be ready for repercussions, from those who don't agree. So instead of Houses (Factions) warring against one another, we will have a bunch of Civil Wars. Cause there are no rules.

This Game was Pitched as teh Clan Invasion not the Succession Wars.

The way I see it, is that the various groups claiming leadership, are the ones who are rebelling, as they refuse to attack the targets that have been marked by high command. They instead seek alliances and non-agression pacts with the enemy.

It's a matter of perspective.

[Joseph Mallan]

Egomane, on 21 January 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

Fixed that for you!

As you yourself said, they simply set themself up as an authority, so they can not be official.

And as PGI seems to refuse to want the job, Someone needs to try to tame the chaos. So I say let someone step up and try to organize, otherwise the game will be dozens of individual tables trying to enforce their perception against the rest. What I did at my table and what another CBT GM did at his never affected the Canon. PGI is letting individual GMs write the history of their game. That will fail!

[John Wolf]

This is a tough situation for everyone, since all of the in game faction ceasefires are gentlemen agreements. Nothing is official and everything is fair game in the war.

However, if anyone has a problem with 'duplicate' accounts that are being used in a griefing manner.. send in a ticket to support@mwomercs.com and the GM's can take a look at it.

However, if for example Liao and Marik aren't fighting each other because of agreements made between factions.. nothing is stopping either side from making attacks. (Cept Liao doesn't have enough people to bother looking at the purple right now )

Just because someone is playing the same game in a manner that you don't like, doesn't mean they are doing it wrong.

Though if you feel Community Warfare can have features added to improve upon it.. come up with some good ideas in the Feature Suggestions forums!

[Lily from animove]

Tarogato, on 20 January 2015 - 09:13 PM, said:

I guess nobody here believes in espionage. Shame. At least it keeps things interesting.

the issue is even if you catch the spies, you can not do soemthing vs them.

[Willard Phule]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2015 - 05:37 AM, said:

The ilKhan does not monitor the trails Of Possession/Refusal/Whatever. They are a Might makes right society.

Incorrect, sir.

Prior to the election of an Ilkhan, you're essentially correct. Trials between rival clans are governed by the Grand Kuraltai or the Council of Khans.

Once an Ilkhan has been elected, then that person is the "commander in chief" for whatever purpose the Ilkhan was elected...in this case, the invasion of the inner sphere.

By your logic, the Clans that were not included in the first wave would be able to just say "screw the Ilkhan" and invade the inner sphere on their own initiative.

To the best of my knowledge, the ONLY planet in the invasion that had any sort of trial fought over it was Rasselhague. The Ilkhan at the time, Leo Showers, informed both Clan Wolf and Clan Ghost Bear that the planet lay in both their invasion corridors and allowed them to fight a trial over who would invade it.

Note that it was an Ilkhan that made the desision and two separate clans that fought over the honor.

For what it's worth, though, the concept of "faction based queuing" should alleviate this kind of stuff a bit....if they ever get it to work right. Instead of attacking Jade Falcon worlds because I'm a solo and there's nothing else for me to do, it should throw me into the Falcons' queue to help them out. Same same inner sphere. Only time will tell.

[Egomane]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2015 - 05:56 AM, said:

And as PGI seems to refuse to want the job

You keep repeating that, but that doesn't make it true. You have no evidence in that regard, yet each cycle PGI set up new targets to attack and defend for all factions. They are giving you a lead to what they want, you just don't like it and prefer something else, so you close your eyes before it.


If you want something else, or think you know how to improve the current situation, make a suggestion, just as John said (thanks).

[Willard Phule]

Egomane, on 21 January 2015 - 06:07 AM, said:

You keep repeating that, but that doesn't make it true. You have no evidence in that regard, yet each cycle PGI set up new targets to attack and defend for all factions. They are giving you a lead to what they want, you just don't like it and prefer something else, so you close your eyes before it.


If you want something else, or think you know how to improve the current situation, make a suggestion, just as John said (thanks).

Here's 2 suggestions:

1 - Follow the timeline correctly. The Federated Suns and the Lyran Commonwealth combined through the marriage of Hanse Davion and Mellissa Steiner LONG before the Clan invasion. Fix this.

2 - Clans should NOT be attacking Clans in the invasion corridor without permission from the Ilkhan. Since we don't have an Ilkhan, PGI needs to step up to the plate and fill that position. Fix this as well.

[Alexander Steel]

Dimento Graven, on 20 January 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

Again, if you're not going to play WITH the faction and its interests you align your 'alt account', and in fact play completely counter to it, you think that's a valid tactic?

PGI makes it possible for Davions to attack Steiner. I'm not sure why you think they should be punished for playing the game exactly as it's designed.

Quote

2 - Clans should NOT be attacking Clans in the invasion corridor without permission from the Ilkhan. Since we don't have an Ilkhan, PGI needs to step up to the plate and fill that position. Fix this as well.

PGI has filled that position. The Ilkhan is an NPC, and the very fact that clans can attack each other is proof that the Ilkhan is cool with it.

[Alexander Steel]

Willard Phule, on 21 January 2015 - 06:06 AM, said:

To the best of my knowledge, the ONLY planet in the invasion that had any sort of trial fought over it was Rasselhague. The Ilkhan at the time, Leo Showers, informed both Clan Wolf and Clan Ghost Bear that the planet lay in both their invasion corridors and allowed them to fight a trial over who would invade it.

Note that it was an Ilkhan that made the desision and two separate clans that fought over the honor.

Nope. Ghost Bear and Wolf bid against each other for the right to invade the world. Wolf "cheated" by having their bondsman at the time Phalen Kell help with the bidding by having him provide them with tactical knowledge that the Bears had no way of knowing about. Kell had this knowledge because his unit of the Kell Hounds were under the employement of the FRR at the time.

That said, this version of Battletech is clearly not the Lore version of Battletech.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 21 January 2015 - 06:23 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Willard Phule, on 21 January 2015 - 06:06 AM, said:

Incorrect, sir.

Prior to the election of an Ilkhan, you're essentially correct. Trials between rival clans are governed by the Grand Kuraltai or the Council of Khans.

Once an Ilkhan has been elected, then that person is the "commander in chief" for whatever purpose the Ilkhan was elected...in this case, the invasion of the inner sphere.

By your logic, the Clans that were not included in the first wave would be able to just say "screw the Ilkhan" and invade the inner sphere on their own initiative.

To the best of my knowledge, the ONLY planet in the invasion that had any sort of trial fought over it was Rasselhague. The Ilkhan at the time, Leo Showers, informed both Clan Wolf and Clan Ghost Bear that the planet lay in both their invasion corridors and allowed them to fight a trial over who would invade it.

Note that it was an Ilkhan that made the desision and two separate clans that fought over the honor.

For what it's worth, though, the concept of "faction based queuing" should alleviate this kind of stuff a bit....if they ever get it to work right. Instead of attacking Jade Falcon worlds because I'm a solo and there's nothing else for me to do, it should throw me into the Falcons' queue to help them out. Same same inner sphere. Only time will tell.

Actually the Home Clans Attacked the weaken Holding of the Home worlds, and there is evidence of Wolf/Falcon squabbling and fighting even with an ilKhan.

[Alexander Steel]

Wolf and Jade Falcon went after each other claw and fang, even with the Ilkhan being around during the Truce. However that doesn't matter as this version of Battletech is not the Lore version.