480 replies to this topic

[Alexander Steel]

Harathan, on 21 January 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

You're still deliberately avoiding the point, and I think that's very poignant. All the excuses you're trying to make are still essentially saying you think it's ok for a small group of people to go into a game and screw up it for a larger group of people, the larger group having already decided amongst themselves what the teams and whatnot were going to be.

Using my analogy, you think it's ok that just because the pitch owner said "You can do this here" means it's ok for you and your mates to spoil things for the people already playing.

Please, please go try that in real life and tell me what happens to your face.

It happens all the time. I go to a pool that has several lanes set aside for lap swimming, by the owners of the pool, and the rest of the pool is open. If nobody is swimming laps then everybody else can use the lanes to do whatever. However if somebody wants to swim in the lap lanes they have the right to tell the other people to let them, because that's what the owners have set up as the rules of the pool. I have to do that about once a week. Most people are fine, because they realize I'm following the rules of the pool as set up by the owners. Every so often somebody refuses, and I get the life guard to enforce the rules or kick the person out if they refuse. I have no problem doing this.

Why? Because those rules are the rules I agreed to when I paid to play at the pool. The people attacking other factions are doing so because PGI set up that those lanes were open if people wanted to use them to lap swim, even if everybody else in the pool wanted to play water polo and use the entire pool during lap swim time.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 21 January 2015 - 12:51 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

MischiefSC, on 21 January 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

I get what you're saying, I do. However CW will play out over years, not even weeks or months. If you think reputation in CW won't affect mercs in the long haul you're crazy. Mercs with a solid rep are going to do better in the long term. No question. In the short term a few extra cbills is nice. If everyone thinks you're a bunch of rambo pugs in unit form though you're going to end up with less benefits down the road, less support from the factions you work for and if you think peoples opinions don't change over time you're crazy.

Vlad if you don't think there won't be perks for loyalist units, especially in regard to what benefits they can give (or deny) mercs you're not looking at what PGI has been saying from day 1 about CW. The point is that loyalist units will be able to offer benefits to merc units to attract them. If you're happy to have some cbills now in return for a loss of bigger rewards later that's a decision you need to make, just don't be surprised when it plays out that way.

For a merc reputation is everything. We're early in the beta process and there's only a shell of that in game right now. That sort of system though is what empowers factions to create semi-legit alliances. If the current system just plays out in bigger numbers then the game brutally punishes players for actually being house units (1/12th the potential rewards?) and has no incentive, at all, for factions to play like factions and should in fact be played like pug/group queue, just randomly dropping on worlds with matches to make cbills/LP in matches with worlds lost/gained being irrelevant.

If that's what you think CW is being designed to be then yeah. Your logic makes sense. If you take PGI at even a bit of their word though what it is and evolving into is a system where loyalists get growing perks for the success of their faction and have rewards to offer to attract/maintain merc contracts with merc units. Hopefully we'll see that in a few months. The question is, when that happens, why would anyone want to hire/reward a unit that's proven itself untrustworthy and unreliable? The promise they won't go back to that when it suits them? There are, even in lore, different caliber and qualities of mercs. Some are expendable thugs, some are organized, efficient and reliable military units. One of those is going to get better rewards from its employer than the other.

Because they kill things real goodly. That's it in a nutshell, really. Right now, plenty of extremely competent merc units are being treated like **** by smaller, less experienced, and/or less competitive faction units (not even talking about my own, Smoke Jags are pretty cool peeps overall). The end result, contrary to what seems to be the popular belief, is not a game where no one is willing to hire these mercs.

The end result is a game where the first faction willing to treat Mercs with respect and let them do their own thing will end up with an extreme excess of highly skilled, active players who will take planets for them all day, every day.

You say Mercs should be jockeying for favor with Factions. I say Factions should be scrambling to provide the most inclusive, welcoming environment for Mercs. It's not like Faction units are going to switch sides if they don't like the way things are going for them.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 21 January 2015 - 12:54 PM.

[Harathan]

Alexander Steel, on 21 January 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

Why? Because those rules are the rules I agreed to when I paid to play at the pool. The people attacking other factions are doing so because PGI set up that those lanes were were open if people wanted to use them to lap swim, even if everybody else in the pool wanted to play water polo and use the entire pool during lap swim time.

But there is no corresponding rule that you have to attack using those open lanes. So your analogy is flawed at that level. What you're doing, in fact, is going to a public pool where everyone is playing water polo, and swimming lengths right thru the middle of the game and insisting, when you get called out for it, that it's ok because there's no rules against it.

Yeah, there's no rules against it. But like I said, you know full well that you're a **** for doing it.

Edited by Harathan, 21 January 2015 - 12:53 PM.

[Alexander Steel]

Harathan, on 21 January 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

To use your analogy, what you're doing is going into a public park, seeing a bunch of guys already playing a game of soccer, and deciding to go play a game of frisbee in the middle of it.

Doing that in real life would make you a jackass, and you know it. Doing it here? Same thing.

Except to make the example accurate you've claimed the ENTIRE park as your soccer field and don't want to let ANYBODY else do something other than soccer.

Harathan, on 21 January 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

But there is no corresponding rule that you have to attack using those open lanes. So your analogy is flawed at that level. What you're doing, in fact, is going to a public pool where everyone is playing water polo, and swimming lengths right thru the middle of the game and insisting, when you get called out for it, that it's ok because there's no rules against it.

Yeah, there's no rules against it. But like I said, you know full well that it makes you a **** for doing it.

The rules say you can attack other factions when they are open for attack. You're trying to say people can't. There aren't any rules at the pool that say I HAVE to lap swim, only that if I want to I have the right to do so. The rules say I can swim laps when I want to as long as I follow the lanes that are set up for it. There aren't any rules in CW that say I HAVE to attack every faction on the border only that if I want to I have the right to do so.

Add on: This is a classic case of shared resources where one group demands that everybody has to use the resource only the way they want and want to punish everybody who disagrees with them.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 21 January 2015 - 12:57 PM.

[Harathan]

Martis Gradivus, on 21 January 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

Maybe the soccer players would share some of the park with the frisbee players and everyone is happy? Or is that too Solomon-esque for you?

But we don't have that option; both the soccer players and the frisbee players are stuck in the same part of the park.

[Dimento Graven]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 21 January 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

Not an acceptable argument.

What if I enjoy being able to select 4 mechs? What if I enjoy having something besides "chase the spider," "get to 750 before the other guy," or "stand in box to make red bar go away?" What if I like IS vs IS, Clan vs Clan, or IS vs Clan?

I hate to break it to you, but you and I are sharing a public park. I don't have to play flag football by your rules. I can go throw a frisbee with my friends in the park if I so choose.

I'm sorry I refuse to play the game in accordance with your grandiose vision.

Almost getting to an argument with a point there.

Agreed, current pub queues have insufficient game modes, and even worse controls when it comes to getting the game you want out of MWO.

Primary issues with the pub queues:

1. Elo still not working as intended.
2. Inability to select a desired map.
3. Lack of 'new' game modes.

I can see why the new CW would have some appeal:

1. It's known there's no Elo. It is what it is, you don't have to be frustrated by the feeling that Elo is out to get you.
2. There's only 2 maps, BUT, at least you have a REAL GOOD idea of what those two maps are, and if you've been paying attention to your CW drops at all, you'll know what map you're about to drop on so you can select 'mechs appropriate.
3. Self-evident, it's a brand new game mode!

However, this still doesn't give you the right, using your Frisbee vs. football analogy for you and your Frisbee tossing buddies to decide that you're going to throw your Frisbee EXCLUSIVELY on the one side of the team that you've bet against is playing to disrupt their ability to make plays.

Sorry, even in THAT scenario, at the very least both sides of the football team have the option to just get up beat the living puke out of you and then go on with their game. You can play Frisbee all you like, you just shouldn't do it in such a manner as to INTENTIONALLY F with anyone else's game.

That's trolling.

Martis Gradivus, on 21 January 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

Um, you, since you just gained a lovely new piece of real estate in the Terra Neighbourhood?

I didn't want it and I don't recall anyone anywhere asking anyone else to go get it, and since I can't directly fight against the morons doing it, I'm limited in my response and they get to suffer ZERO consequences for their actions.

[Ductus Hase]

There is no central Command.
There is community.

A big part of the community likes the lore, others accept the need for trustworthy allies... some just want to shed blood.
Those Steiners and Davions who wish to fight each other are apparently a minority - just don´t support them if you don´t agree with their politics.

We should defend our planets as we did before and we should gather the names of those who practice "rogue" politics in order to know who is who in politics.


Whoever plays an Alternative Account isn´t playing the Mainaccount during that time.
If we don´t let them provoke hostilities among allies they mostly are wasting time.
Let them try to disturb us, our Warriors earn CBills if we fight them, If we don´t our Allies get our Planets and we take them back as soon as they are up on rotation again. Someone just has to keep track.

I just hope PGI changes the algorithm so we can attack Planets lost with priority - there still is an ARMD Planet in Davion territory belonging to Steiner... the second one which got taken is just another one... 16 Ghost Drops and both "wrongs" would be erased.

[Harathan]

Alexander Steel, on 21 January 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

The rules say you can attack other factions when they are open for attack. You're trying to say people can't. The rules say I can swim laps when I want to as long as I follow the lanes that are set up for it.

The "rules" say you can attack? The "rules" say that where? You're just making stuff up now. There's no "rule" specifying attack conduct in CW. There is in fact a complete absence of that rule. You're free to attack who you like, surely that's the point you're trying to make? And the point we're making is yeah, you're allowed to at attack who you like. But if doing so screws up the game for other people, why the hell shouldn't you get called out for it?

Edited by Harathan, 21 January 2015 - 12:59 PM.

[Davers]

The House Marik TS might be the largest collection of unit players in the FWL, but it is sheer folly to think we can dictate the actions of every player in our faction. If an independent unit decided they wanted to fight Liao, there is nothing we can do but state that the attacks are unauthorized, and refuse to help with them. But that is where our 'authority' ends. And I wouldn't petition to make it any stronger than that either. The idea that an unelected minority can control the entire actions of an entire faction is just silly. Just because you paid for a TS doesn't make you the boss.

[Alexander Steel]

Harathan, on 21 January 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

The "rules" say you can attack? The "rules" say that where? You're just making stuff up now. There's no "rule" specifying attack conduct in CW. You're free to attack who you like, surely that's the point you're trying to make? And the point we're making is yeah, you're allowed to at attack who you like. But if doing so screws up the game for other people, why the hell shouldn't you get called out for it?

Try to attack a random planet. Guess what, unless the game says you can attack you can't. Every night the game selects one planet of each border for you to attack. That's the rule of how CW works. Those planets are open for attack. You don't have to attack them, but they are the only ones you can attack.

Have you even played CW?

[wanderer]

Basically, thanks to PGI, CW "ceasefires" are only as effective as oldschool "no legging" agreements.

They have no binding effect on anyone who chooses to join a faction and slap things around. In truth, it simply means that given units are agreeing not to hit a planet.

You want actual control over such things, it's going to take some kind of status system where successful units can vote to open or close a given possible planet for attacks. At that point, players have influence over a faction and CW in general. Or they bid LP or something. There are no such things writ into the system as is, only bored people who want to attack worlds in a small enough population pool to do so.

[Martis Gradivus]

Harathan, on 21 January 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

But we don't have that option; both the soccer players and the frisbee players are stuck in the same part of the park.

Incorrect....you are UNWILLING to see another option. That is the real issue here.

[Harathan]

Alexander Steel, on 21 January 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

Have you even played CW?

Have you? Nope, you're just playing the W part of CW. GGclose.

Martis Gradivus, on 21 January 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

Incorrect....you are UNWILLING to see another option. That is the real issue here.

Incorrect how? We're all stuck in the same park, there isn't an option to go elsewhere for either party.

Edited by Harathan, 21 January 2015 - 01:02 PM.

[Alexander Steel]

Harathan, on 21 January 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

Have you? Nope, you're just playing the W part of CW. GGclose.



Incorrect how? We're all stuck in the same park, there isn't an option to go elsewhere for either party.

I'm playing the part that's actually in the game.

There is plenty of room in the park for both sides to play, just the soccer players can't have the entire park because they don't make up the entire group of people wanting to use the shared resource.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 21 January 2015 - 01:04 PM.

[RG Notch]

Harathan, on 21 January 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

The "rules" say you can attack? The "rules" say that where? You're just making stuff up now. There's no "rule" specifying attack conduct in CW. There is in fact a complete absence of that rule. You're free to attack who you like, surely that's the point you're trying to make? And the point we're making is yeah, you're allowed to at attack who you like. But if doing so screws up the game for other people, why the hell shouldn't you get called out for it?

Call people out all you like, just don't expect PGI to sanction people who aren't playing the way you like. Lecture as was said before, keep lists and what ever you like, just don't expect PGI to give you any in game tools to make people play the way you decided CW should be played. PGI has set up the sandbox and as has been said in this thread you are free to re enact lore or what have you as you see fit. Until PGI changes the rules to put you folks in charge of other players actions you will have to settle for calling people out and complaining on the forums. The truly funny part is all this does is encourage people who do want to intentionally screw with your plans by making a big deal about it. That's what griefers live for and you are giving them that in spades. This is pretty much a self defeating strategy.

[Harathan]

Alexander Steel, on 21 January 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

I'm playing the part that's actually in the game.

So now you're changing your story; you're griefing the community because you believe the community doesn't exist.

The community would beg to differ. Just because you choose not to bother with it doesn't mean it isn't there.

RG Notch, on 21 January 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

That's what griefers live for and you are giving them that in spades. This is pretty much a self defeating strategy.

Since you've now finally admitted that this behaviour is griefing, I'm wondering if you can expand upon your point of view that griefing is ok?

Edited by Harathan, 21 January 2015 - 01:11 PM.

[Martis Gradivus]

Harathan, on 21 January 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

Incorrect how? We're all stuck in the same park, there isn't an option to go elsewhere for either party.

Oh, I see. You can't just play in 80% of the park with your soccer team and leave 20% free for the frisbee buys.

Black and white. I see you you see things now.

No real discussion here is possible.

[ZenFool]

One side will never convince the other that they are right. In this world there are jerks and nice guys. Jerks tend to get the best stuff because they take it. Nice guys tend to get crapped on.

Of course, many of us play video games to escape this very thing and don't like it rearing it's ugly head.

I must say, regardless if whether you think these tactics are "fair" they certainly are effective. As a steiner unit we typically have four planets to defend every day as well as attempting to attack one or two. The extra front on the Davion border spread us even thinner.

It leaves a foul taste in my mouth when Community Warfare has no sense of community and "faction" is simply a colored sticker to the left of your name. Hopefully pgi will get a handle on this, as CW was literally created for the BT roleplaying fans. To have that ruined by a few groups ultimately loses them their player base.

[Dimento Graven]

RG Notch, on 21 January 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

No, I said it's a game, but your poor analogy to real life simply begged for a response. So actually my answer covers both cases. You complaints seem to fail either. If it's a game then your real life comparison is pointless, if it's like real life, well then it's more complex than your simplistic I appointed myself to be in charge and you must all obey. So keep spinning.

Not at all, you're being overly simplistic, and not surprisingly still intentionally ignorant of all that's been stated.

Namely, an over riding majority of the people participating in the Davion faction have agreed to certain things, the expectation is that everyone will cooperate towards a specific goal. Now, interestingly enough a third party gets tired of their situation and decides to join this faction and start attacking from a completely different direction, counter to the majority of the Davion factions wishes.

Were this "real" or a "complete game" at the very least the Davion factions could rise up beat the living piss out of these malefactors.

As there currently no methodology for this, short of Davions pulling the same on the malefactors, which results in an explosion of alternate accounts and bizarre unexpected actions of random groups. Totally destroying the community in "Community" Warfare.

Allow some actual in-game consequences for this stupidity and maybe then it becomes a 'valid' tactic.

[Harathan]

Martis Gradivus, on 21 January 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

Oh, I see. You can't just play in 80% of the park with your soccer team and leave 20% free for the frisbee buys.

What are you talking about? Seriously? What 80% 20% are you referring to? We're all playing the same CW, on the same CW map, with the same CW factions. In that situation, what divide could you implement that prevents the 20% from griefing the 80%?

You'd have to have 2 modes, one where anything goes, and one where people actually play CW, vis a vis participating in the Community part of Community Warfare. Oh wait! We already have that, it's called the public queue.

Edited by Harathan, 21 January 2015 - 01:14 PM.