164 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

AdamBaines, on 23 January 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

But I feel ya. I do.

Thank you, and sorry to have added so many edits to that (I know it tells you about every time).

On a positive note, gave more of the actual feelings behind it as well as slapped in the "3 types of players" with both the confirmed information and the 'implied' information. Makes for a neat read.

[bobF]

So let's be objective.

Kilgorin Strom, on 23 January 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

Now, I'm going to cite my ONE source for every single thing I've said: Russ Bullock's Twitch Stream with NGNG about a week ago, the whole 2 hours is on youtube, watch it.

I read the cliff notes. Russ has said a lot of things, see Koniving's post above.

There needs to be ACTION. Chasing a few dollars from a couple fanboys doesn't bode well for long term viability. It's the kind of behavior that was enforced/encouraged during the reign of IGP, and I don't think anyone wants to go back to the Mechs for Dollars treadmill while the rest of the game languishes.

Quote

They WANT to keep players, they WANT to make a good game. People need to treat this like beta, because it is. Stop throwing Doom everywhere, tell them what's working, whats not, be objective, and most of all, be PATIENT, we're not going to get everything we want right away.

I hear you, but without crisis and discomfort, we're back to PGI thinking that voip and urbanmechs are real priorities, when those things are garbage. The game needed global/faction chat implemented the same time as the new map (the tentative date anyway) NOT voip, or a yet ANOTHER IS light mech.

[AdamBaines]

Koniving, on 23 January 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

Thank you, and sorry to have added so many edits to that (I know it tells you about every time). On a positive note, gave more of the actual feelings behind it as well as slapped in the "3 types of players" with both the confirmed information and the 'implied' information. Makes for a neat read.

I come from the old GEnie MPBT mold, and wish we could have of that great functionality here as well. I miss how my character used to progress (not just my mechs), gaining ranks by earning it, not just saying I'm a Lt.Col. because I want to be, and having to earn my way into prestigious units. But I also understand that would keep the game from being flexible and would keep many player from playing as it seems most want a free form environment. I'm trying to keep an open mind as this progresses, trying to not get disappointed when something goes a way I don't want.

It says something about you, that your still here playing and being, generally speaking, a positive voice and a huge help to new players who need help getting up to speed as well a voice I generally listen to, even when we don't agree, even when your disappointed in the current state of the game.

(that something is a good thing BTW)

[Basilisk222]

bobF, on 23 January 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

So let's be objective.



I read the cliff notes. Russ has said a lot of things, see Koniving's post above.

There needs to be ACTION. Chasing a few dollars from a couple fanboys doesn't bode well for long term viability. It's the kind of behavior that was enforced/encouraged during the reign of IGP, and I don't think anyone wants to go back to the Mechs for Dollars treadmill while the rest of the game languishes.



I hear you, but without crisis and discomfort, we're back to PGI thinking that voip and urbanmechs are real priorities, when those things are garbage. The game needed global/faction chat implemented the same time as the new map (the tentative date anyway) NOT voip, or a yet ANOTHER IS light mech.

You make valid points here, I do want to point out this is a 1 month old mode with 1 cobbled patch invested in it due to the really rushed way they released it. I'm voting patience before we burn the place to the ground. We've gotten like a couple hotfixes and a few tweaks. No solid patches yet. That's why I say what I do, All I can do is say well, we have to wait for Feb to see if they'll make good on promises.

That's all we can do right now. Action is needed, but we can't verify if it isn't being taken, nor how long with will take.

[bobF]

Kilgorin Strom, on 23 January 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

That's all we can do right now. Action is needed, but we can't verify if it isn't being taken, nor how long with will take.

That's also frustrating, when game companies treat their roadmaps and development schedules like national security secrets. Trust me PGI, you're competing with yourselves on this one; there is no sinister, big name competitor eager to wrest the IP from you, given its history.

Like I mentioned before Kilgorin, I attempt patience

[Ax2Grind]

Soldryn, on 23 January 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

ya know, people complain about not having a challenge, pugs complain about getting stomped by unit teams. 3 things i have noticed that i feel are killing CW the WORST: (and yes fulfilling objectives are fine, but DO NOT whine about never getting a challenge, and then gen rush when u finally get one, that's just pathetic.)

1 faction refuses to fight anything EXCEPT disorganized pugs because "RP".

another faction has given up almost completely on CW BECAUSE they cant get any disorganized pugs to beat on, it was too hard for them to fight units.

and a third faction has a unit that makes up approx. 10-15% of their total faction population who gen rushes, and ghost drops, rather than fight when faced with a real challenge.

and what do u know? they all CLAN FACTIONS.

I think that even more than pugstomping, ghost dropping, gen rushing, TDRs, TBRs, SCRs, quirks and hitscan:

WALKING AROUND WITH YOUR RPNESS FIRMLY LODGED IN YOUR WRECKTEM IS KILLING CW.

Who are these clan faction groups you are referring to? I have yet to meet any of them in battle.

[Praehotec8]

I feel like there are a few problems with CW.

First of all, there are only two maps and one gameplay mode. It's fun to play a few rounds, but it gets old with no real objectives and no strategies that seem to work outside of, "Open the gates, feint to one side, switch to the other (or have a separate lance go), and then rush to destroy generators, ignoring enemy mechs." Which is what I've advocated for almost 2 years: we need more maps, more gameplay modes, and more intricate (and even) objectives. The politicking and change of ownership of planets is nice enough, but it's all icing on the cake when the cake itself isn't done baking yet.

Second, as stated above, the tactics are very limited. Sure, it's fun to win, but in a 12-man last night my group won pretty much every map, but it really gets old running to the generators and blasting them without really fighting mechs. After about 3-4 games personally, I tend to get bored and want to go to the regular queue to actually, you know, fight. I can't imagine how boring it must get for the highly competitive players to drop in and do that over and over, ad nauseam.

Third, if getting enough groups into CW is a problem, perhaps all groups greater than say, 4-6, ought to be routed directly into CW (but see above as to the problems with doing so).

Finally, balance is still clearly off. I watched a comp. 12-man group (which shall remain nameless) yesterday make the following assault:

Wave 1: 12 ECM spiders jump the gates and destroy the generators while dodging enemy fire (and not activating turrets).
Wave 2: 10 PPC Thuds and 2 laser stalkers assault the central gate (approximate numbers), and take up position at omega.
Wave3-4: spawn camp and prevent any reinforcements from arriving to milk kills. Finally destroy generator after all enemy mechs are down.

Yes, they are good players (and I'm fine with losing to a better team - we probably would have lost anyways), but my goodness, the cheese! It shouldn't be possible to so blatantly exploit balance problems and map/objective deficiencies, and spawn camping certainly should never be possible. Bottom line is that while there will always be mechs that are, "meta", and weaknesses in the maps, it should still be possible to run varied mechs and loadouts and still do well, and more than one strategy should be viable.

[Ax2Grind]

Sounds like they used the best tools for the job and worked each aspect of the battle to their favor Praeh. That's not cheese, that is refinement. Your job was to counter each one of those actions. If you had done so that would also not have been cheese...it would have been a well fought battle.

[Davers]

Tastian, on 23 January 2015 - 06:16 AM, said:

PUGs outnumber 12-mans 4 to 1.
12-mans stomp PUGs, insult them, tell the to join a group or quit.
PUGs ask for solo queue in CW but are denied.
PUGs don't play CW.
CW is a ghost town.

Based on your numbers, then pugs only face 12 mans every 4th match. So all the '12 mans are stomping pugs every game' claims are a flat out lie. So pugs need to either 1. concede that there are a lot more unit players than PGI said and they are not the vast majority or 2. explain what their exterior motive is for distorting the truth.

[DaynarFaol]

mania3c, on 23 January 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

it's just one of the many failed designs in our beloved CW..

THIS IS BETA. How can it be a failed design when we are still not even at the basement level yet of what they envision?

[C E Dwyer]

Koniving, on 23 January 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

Redid the image by hosting it myself. Does it work now?

I feel the caption is very fitting; the paradise island landscape outside was just an unintended bonus I noticed after the fact.

yups it works

[DaynarFaol]

bobF, on 23 January 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

So let's be objective.



I read the cliff notes. Russ has said a lot of things, see Koniving's post above.

There needs to be ACTION. Chasing a few dollars from a couple fanboys doesn't bode well for long term viability. It's the kind of behavior that was enforced/encouraged during the reign of IGP, and I don't think anyone wants to go back to the Mechs for Dollars treadmill while the rest of the game languishes.



I hear you, but without crisis and discomfort, we're back to PGI thinking that voip and urbanmechs are real priorities, when those things are garbage. The game needed global/faction chat implemented the same time as the new map (the tentative date anyway) NOT voip, or a yet ANOTHER IS light mech.

To day is DAY 18 since they got back from a CHRISTMAS BREAK.

So tell me how quickly can YOU build a game map?

Keep in mind PGI is not Ubisoft with facilities in 20 countries and massive staff.

They are working on things. Do you want fast or right when it comes to maps?

The last 2 pug maps were very good imo, and they weren't even sure if Sulfur would be ready for the Beta release.

So we got the January map with the Beta. And next month we should be, IF IT IS DONE, getting a new map and game mode.

People need to chill until we get a few months down the road and they can actually GET THE DEVELOPMENT CYCLE done some what.

STOP WITH THE INSTANT GRATIFICATION BS.

I grow up in the 80's. I remember when we heard about a little game called Doom. Took them over a year to deliver it.

When you have a limited staff working on a project that is a passion one for many of the Devs. THINGS ARE GOING TO TAKE TIME.

If we were at this exact same point FOUR TO SIX MONTHS down the road I would agree that CW was dead.

BUT IT HAS BEEN A LITTLE OVER A MONTH. ONE FREAKING MONTH WITH THE DEVS TAKING A BREAK FOR THE HOLIDAYS. 18 DAYS BACK IN THE OFFICE.

I know of at least 10 people that are just now getting feed back from Support. Not because of anything else then a massive backlog.

Time people. It takes time.

They released CW 5 days early.

They released the King Crab early.

They then took a break to SPEND TIME WITH THEIR FAMILIES.

Not even three weeks back to work and people are saying a BETA game feature is dead.

Give it time.

[Praehotec8]

Ax2Grind, on 23 January 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

Sounds like they used the best tools for the job and worked each aspect of the battle to their favor Praeh. That's not cheese, that is refinement. Your job was to counter each one of those actions. If you had done so that would also not have been cheese...it would have been a well fought battle.

To me it sounds more like abusing borderline broken mechanics to increase their advantage, but we're really splitting hairs and discussing a difference of viewpoint on competitive gameplay. That's not the point, however. The point is that there should be sufficient balance thus that the optimal tactics do not involve near exclusive use of 1 or two mechs. It should generally be viable to run (within the limits of reasonable mech design) any variant or build desired and have a well fought battle. If the way to win is to just, "use X," well ,boy does that sound exciting...

Again, I think they were a better team than mine, certainly were better than me, and would have won regardless. Nonetheless, this type of gameplay will certainly drive more casual players away (regardless of how you or the competitive players feel about it - whether it is justified or not). Most of us are really just here to have a good time, and I think better overall balance, and tighter map/objective design would go a long way towards enticing players to participate in CW.

[Caustic Canid]

Praehotec8, on 23 January 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

To me it sounds more like abusing borderline broken mechanics to increase their advantage, but we're really splitting hairs and discussing a difference of viewpoint on competitive gameplay. That's not the point, however. The point is that there should be sufficient balance thus that the optimal tactics do not involve near exclusive use of 1 or two mechs. It should generally be viable to run (within the limits of reasonable mech design) any variant or build desired and have a well fought battle. If the way to win is to just, "use X," well ,boy does that sound exciting...

The sad truth is that a game with this much customization (even being limited compared to mw2/tt) is going to be a nightmare to balance. If all mechs were forced to remain stock, pgi could balance each chassis individually (not calling for this, just using it as an example) but since even a small adjustment to a mech or weapon can lead to huge imbalances when people boat that weapon x12 mechs with coordination, it's difficult to even know what to change.

I don't envy pgi In that regard.

[oldradagast]

Ax2Grind, on 23 January 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

Sounds like they used the best tools for the job and worked each aspect of the battle to their favor Praeh. That's not cheese, that is refinement. Your job was to counter each one of those actions. If you had done so that would also not have been cheese...it would have been a well fought battle.

And then everyone plays the same stale cheese, the game stagnates, and everyone goes off to play something interesting.

Let's step back and look at another - successful - game that allows full customization and has the potential for degenerate games: Magic: the Gathering.

In its 20+ year history, the game developers have learned the hard way that allowing broken cards and combos produces a stale, boring format that rewards mindless, repetitive play and is of little fun for anyone. They also have close to 20 years on MWO, so I'm inclined to trust their judgement - don't allow a game mode to stagnate into a handful of broken combos and "solutions" - vs. the judgement of others without similar experience.

Of course, when WotC does change the format, ban or restrict cards, and so on, there's no shortage of screaming (though far less these days) from people who want the game to stagnate so they can play their mindless, easy-win combos over and over again. It's no different here - some people only want the wins, even if it kills the game. The best, though, are the causal Magic players who - because it's casual mode - feel that playing 2 card auto-win combos is fine... and they are then baffled why nobody wants to play with them.

It's the same here... a lot of people don't want to play CW anymore... the problem needs to be fixed, and mindless, repetitive gameplay + one-sided matches is part of the problem.

Edited by oldradagast, 23 January 2015 - 05:08 PM.

[oldradagast]

Davers, on 23 January 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

Based on your numbers, then pugs only face 12 mans every 4th match. So all the '12 mans are stomping pugs every game' claims are a flat out lie. So pugs need to either 1. concede that there are a lot more unit players than PGI said and they are not the vast majority or 2. explain what their exterior motive is for distorting the truth.

Math fail... the 4 to 1 ratio applies to the game players, not to game modes. It's pretty obvious that far more 12-mans play CW than PUG's... and given the sheer number of PUG's leaving CW, that number is only going to increase until there's nobody left by a few 12-mans.

[Davers]

oldradagast, on 23 January 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

Math fail... the 4 to 1 ratio applies to the game players, not to game modes. It's pretty obvious that far more 12-mans play CW than PUG's... and given the sheer number of PUG's leaving CW, that number is only going to increase until there's nobody left by a few 12-mans.

So, if pugs dropped in CW they would outnumber the 12 mans and be fighting each other a lot. But because they choose not to do so, the whole game mode needs redesigning to accommodate the few who do?

[Gamuray]

... I left CW after playing just one time. Played it, said "Ack, not really any different from a standard match.. minus the respawns... which don't add much for me anyways... and minus the fact that the 'multiple ways of entering' are really just 3 parallel routes, with high walls... meaning it isn't even free roam... forget it."... CW is just a worse version of a normal match to me. Respawns, yep... oh boy. Gates and generators... yep... oh boy. Straight paths to the base which are all the same (ish) that lead directly to the enemy under fire... yep... .... Ok what the heck? This one really gets to me. I can deal with the lack of creativity for conquering a base... but the routes are just awful! You play a community warfare map once, you've seen the entire thing! There were supposed to be multiple ways of coming at the base. There aren't multiple ways, there's barely even multiple directions! It's just ONE way to get to the base, with 1 or 2 walls dividing it up! It FORCES you to attack the base the same way every time, minus using different mechs. At least in a standard map you can use tactical maneuvering to outplay the enemy. ... Seriously. I can deal with fighting groups if need be. But I cannot deal with being forced to use a specific path and tactic. It's lazy, uncreative, and unacceptable.

(although I have played one CW match, I have watched plenty. They are quite boring to watch, since it's always the same thing, minus when some group decides to roleplay or goof off... Normal matches though are much better to watch, because there are options)

Yes, pugs are leaving due to playing groups... but I believe the lower quality is also a figure. Groups play because it is competitive... let's face it, that's really about it. (unless the respawns and severely limited play is just your style...) I think they need to actually be creative and come up with a much more roamable, option-filled map style for CW. You should be able to attack from any angle, be hiding around any corner, sneak in through an unmonitored position. Then it'll ACTUALLY be fun. It'll be about outplaying the opponent, not JUST better aim or more brute force. The defender's would have reason to be constantly moving to scout for the enemy, constantly under pressure to not let their guard down lest the enemy attack.... Rather than always knowing where they are... when their attacking... and knowing they have nowhere to hide.

Edited by Gamuray, 23 January 2015 - 05:40 PM.

[beerandasmoke]

Davers, on 23 January 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

So, if pugs dropped in CW they would outnumber the 12 mans and be fighting each other a lot. But because they choose not to do so, the whole game mode needs redesigning to accommodate the few who do?

Broken maps funneling attackers into chokepoints. Zerg rushes being the flavor of the month. Broken hitbox mechs being used to zerg rush gens and omega. Little if any rewards being incentive to play CW for the average pug.

Give me a CW mode where i have to actually fight the enemy instead of watching a ball of mechs rush gens and omega and pugs will return to CW. Right now all you have is mercs farming pugs on the Kurita border and light zerg rushes in the south.

[Davers]

beerandasmoke, on 23 January 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

Broken maps funneling attackers into chokepoints. Zerg rushes being the flavor of the month. Broken hitbox mechs being used to zerg rush gens and omega. Little if any rewards being incentive to play CW for the average pug.

Give me a CW mode where i have to actually fight the enemy instead of watching a ball of mechs rush gens and omega and pugs will return to CW. Right now all you have is mercs farming pugs on the Kurita border and light zerg rushes in the south.

Well hopefully more game modes will fix those problems.