51 replies to this topic

[Faith McCarron]

Harathan, on 26 January 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

I think there's an argument to be made that they already have - I don't think PGI ever even conceived of the possibility of something like MercStar. They can't really stop it (the only way they could would be to impose a player cap on units, and that won't fly) and they really haven't created a buffer for it (contract payment changes are made too slowly, too irregularly to encourage short term contracts and lots of merc/pug movement). If contract payments were automatically based on active player population and able to change in real time, maybe that'd do it, but then again that can be gamed, so maybe not.

Agreed. The only people that would never really do something like this are the House loyalist types who have some kind of lore-based allegiance to their house or unit. And actually, even faction loyalists have done it, take CGBI for example. The only difference is that CGBI isn't a threat because they will never have the try-hard density that the all-star monopolies like MercStar have. CGBI has the power of sheer numbers, but hopefully the numbers issue will be addressed as it pertains to ruining CW. You can't really address a skill monopoly in any way that I can come up with.

[IraqiWalker]

MahKraah, on 26 January 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

the real reason for witch faction is successfull or witch is not are the big progamer mercunits(bpgm).

pgi archived to suprisingly well balance is vs clan tech with the massive quirks some chassies recived . a average clan team can not roll a good is team.

also all the factions have a suprisingly balanced loyalist population with liao drops out at the bottom and davion at the top.

all this steamroll movments on the map are powerd by bpgm bulking up in factions.

best example is cgb, the super powerhouse, unstopable!
clans where rolling the is at all attackoptions.

than suddenly the bpgm left cgb and partly other clans, joined the other side and pounded cgb to a point where the native cgb poulation simply stoped to play because it was pointless.

the recent move of ms ci aces and others back into cgb illustrates the scope of this migrations: this bpgm´s eaquals the numbers of the WHOLE kurita loyalist population and clearly beat it on average combat effectivness.

the hopping merc groupes could have been the balancing factor for the whole gamemode but there number and combat weight dwarfs full full factions and they have the unholy tendency to bulk together and therfor destroying any balance that otherwise might be archivable.

next example is davion, largest loyalist population, robinson rangers and headhunter of davions allone have as much pilots enlisted as all kurita houseunits together. on top of that they had the biggest merc population of all is factions and in result they steamrolled on 3 fronts.

with mercs going liao and davion mercs trying clantech they suddenly lose planets on marik and liao front for week now and just recently also to kurita.

the relation of sice and combatweight between house units and the nomadic merc units its way out of a healty balance and the mercs do not act resposible with the gamebreaking power they have.

with all the fixes cw need, to become enjoyable, population control is the most important one.
if thats not done right all other things become meaningless.

HHoD has about 250 active players, and not all of them play in CW (I'd venture a guess, and say about 84 or so do). I don't think House Kurita has only 500 or so players in it.

[wanderer]

It's actually pretty understandable why Clanners get such horrid PUG opponents.

First, all IS factions can defend. On the same planet. I've seen IS defense PUGs that have literally every single faction in them more than once.

Second, because IS defense vs. Clan can most easily get a group started, -everyone- starting who isn't in a unit/House loyalist ends up in said groups. They are the slop bucket teams of MWO, and they're filled regularly. Clanners get to feed off the trough and a steady flow of opponents. PUGs get stomped. CW continues to suffer.

We really should have had more complex factional alliances. That is:
1) Federated Commonwealth. Davion and Steiner can defend each other's worlds.
2) Concord of Kapteyn. Kurita/Marik/Liao mutual defense pact.
3) FRR. Friendly with Steiner and Kurita, can get defenders to/from either unless it's Steiner vs.Kurita (ie, mutual defenses vs.Clanners).

That'd have gone a long way towards removing slop-bucket team defenders.

[IraqiWalker]

Faith McCarron, on 26 January 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

Agreed. The only people that would never really do something like this are the House loyalist types who have some kind of lore-based allegiance to their house or unit. And actually, even faction loyalists have done it, take CGBI for example. The only difference is that CGBI isn't a threat because they will never have the try-hard density that the all-star monopolies like MercStar have. CGBI has the power of sheer numbers, but hopefully the numbers issue will be addressed as it pertains to ruining CW. You can't really address a skill monopoly in any way that I can come up with.

Not without making people stop playing the game.

I personally think that powerhouses should exist (I hate that they do), however, there is a way to stop them. Creating our own. With blackjack, and hookers.

In all seriousness. I think if we get big groups for each house to synch up like that, we would have not just the numbers, but the skill to duke it out with the current powerhouses. If I were to take Marik as an example:

Seraphim +BWC+ awesome Marik PuGs + the two dozen or so smaller units, can combine into a localized superpower of 5+ 12 mans, that means they can deal with MS (They field about 6 12 mans.).

Davion would have an easy case as well. However, houses Like Liao with small player population, tend to have a harder time of it.

If we can get alliances to be a thing (Best way to do it would be to have someone from PGI in constant talks with the councils of each faction, so they can flip the switches for us), and allies can defend each other's territory, I don't see why the southern houses, even the small ones, can't be crucial players in the game. (Kapteyn forces can defend each other's borders, and IS/Clan borders, and Fedcom can defend each other. Who knows, we might even get a proper alliance going between Liap, Marik, and Davion, where the three southerners just fight as one big block).

[Harathan]

wanderer, on 26 January 2015 - 03:48 PM, said:

It's actually pretty understandable why Clanners get such horrid PUG opponents.

First, all IS factions can defend. On the same planet. I've seen IS defense PUGs that have literally every single faction in them more than once.

Second, because IS defense vs. Clan can most easily get a group started, -everyone- starting who isn't in a unit/House loyalist ends up in said groups. They are the slop bucket teams of MWO, and they're filled regularly. Clanners get to feed off the trough and a steady flow of opponents. PUGs get stomped. CW continues to suffer.

We really should have had more complex factional alliances. That is:
1) Federated Commonwealth. Davion and Steiner can defend each other's worlds.
2) Concord of Kapteyn. Kurita/Marik/Liao mutual defense pact.
3) FRR. Friendly with Steiner and Kurita, can get defenders to/from either unless it's Steiner vs.Kurita (ie, mutual defenses vs.Clanners).

That'd have gone a long way towards removing slop-bucket team defenders.

It's nice, but it totally ignores mercs. When Luthien was threatened by the Clans, Davion defended it... by sending mercs. Those mercs were contracted to Davion, but were fighting against the Clans to protect Kurita territory.

Your suggestion would preclude that possibility, as far as I can see.

Edited by Harathan, 26 January 2015 - 04:08 PM.

[Duke Hector]

Davers, on 26 January 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

The reset is more than likely inevitable, but I will miss the Marik Wormhole, as it means that we will once again be totally locked behind Steiner/Davion and cut off from the rest of the game. I know I will be petitioning for my unit to go merc so we can at least visit the rest of the IS.

here's the thing with what you said, and i think this would fix the population imbalance. House Units are completely locked in the borders of the space.

mercs should be able to attack anywhere and any planet in the IS.

That way the southern IS houses who are just itching to fight can get up at the front and fight the clans. this whole thing about keeping "lore pure" is a bunch of BS, and it is hurting the game.

look at the FRR and Kurita in about 2 weeks time Luthien will be sacked and the FRR will be toast. and they plan to NOT have a reset from beta to this? i'm sorry but that would be really really stupid.

another big problem is the mercs going to clan side, now i remember from a few months back the devs said that CW will be your side and you will be locked into it. As far as i am concerned that should absolutely be the case. You want to play your clan (or IS) mechs thats what regular queue is for.

the whole point of beta is to test this out and if they release it to steam as is. Do you really think people are going to stay? no they are going to avoid like the black plague and that won't boad well for this game. And they sure won't join Kurita and the FRR if there is nothing left of them on the map.

even multiplayer BT 3025 said they would have regular map resets if one house took over the whole map, when it was in development in 2000

Edited by Dan the Ice Man, 26 January 2015 - 04:29 PM.

[Ax2Grind]

Heisenbug, on 26 January 2015 - 12:52 AM, said:

During the first one or two town-halls about CW, it was mentioned that they didn't plan on reseting the map when they switched from beta to production. However, that position changed in the last town-hall, suggesting that it may happen. Given what's happened since then, it seems certain that they'll reset the map as CW development appears to have a (very) LONG way to go.

(
The rest of this post is conjecture, feel free to educate me as necessary...

It seems that the changes made since CW started have only pushed the team players to evolve and get better, while the average pug team is just stagnating in it's skill level. Thus, many of the matches are more one-sided than ever, and as such the clans are just running ruff-shod over IS territory.

I wonder if part of this is because many of the units are only willing to play as clans given the innate superiority of clan mechs (*<- already sighing over the people who will argue this*). Don't get me wrong, the try-hards disproportionately support this game financially and should be given credit for that. But it appears that most of the try-hards prefer to play as clan and so the clans have a superiority in number of teams as well as mech quality.

Shouldn't we start considering that those playing on IS (vs. clan) units as the ones who are truly engaging in hard-mode of this game (rather than taking an innate advantage and beating up on a bunch of IS pugs)?

Maybe I'm off base, but maybe I'm not...
)

Your assumptions are indeed a bit skewed about Units. Most recognizable "Comp" groups are part of Merc Units that have been switching back forth from IS to Clan and back again frequently. They play both sides all the time, and in fact spend the majority of the time while IS fighting Clans. When they do go IS is when you get forum posts, especially Clan Wolf in the past, posting about how unfair IS tech is. When my group is IS we actually have the easiest games, regardless of whether we face Clan or IS mechs. It could just be that we have more familiarity with those mechs, or it could be the IS mechs have vastly improved. In either case...the majority of "try hards" (when did it become bad to want to be good at a game again?) are not just Clanners looking for an easy game against IS pugs. At any rate, I wouldn't consider either tech to be "hard" mode. It's all about the level of team play. If a group has it's **** together, PUG or Unit, it's "harder" mode. If they don't, it's "easier" mode.

Also, I think some weapon systems play a role in the success or defeat of PUG's, again with either tech. LRM's are great example of spread damage that I see a lot of PUG's run, and in PUG games it can be very effective, but it is easily countered by a good group who is usually packing a majority of Pin Point weapons. Boating and making a mech efficient also comes into play. A mech with high DPS, and focused on one particular range will almost always outperform a mech with weapon systems supporting various ranges and low DPS.

Edited by Ax2Grind, 26 January 2015 - 04:39 PM.

[wanderer]

Harathan, on 26 January 2015 - 04:06 PM, said:

It's nice, but it totally ignores mercs. When Luthien was threatened by the Clans, Davion defended it... by sending mercs. Those mercs were contracted to Davion, but were fighting against the Clans to protect Kurita territory.

Your suggestion would preclude that possibility, as far as I can see.

That would be an immense, one-shot exception to the rule. Effectively, those mercs were lone wolves paid out of Davion coffers via plot fiat, and not a regular case in any way, shape or form. Prior to and after that, Kurita hired their own mercs and that was that.

[Joe Decker]

I am against a full Map reset. If Bugs appeared like Marik walked into Kuritan Space - that could be fixed - Planets could be switched back to its original Faction. Otherwise I would not reset the Maps.

Better keep them like they are, bring in some Patches and see how that changes the overall Picture of CW. At this Point it is impossible for a Faction to become completely destroyed as the Main Capitals everywhere are unattackable.

If the Community doesn't want Kurita or Rasahlhague to become eradicated, support them as you sign Contracts with these Factions.

Supporting already successful Factions will reduce the Fun for their Opponents.

And here something needs to be done about how and if Mercs can change Sides. Clans should not have Mercs at all. But 100% Loyal Units.

Better bring in multiple Profiles for every Account so every Player can play as his Clan Alt or his IS Alt.

Edited by Joe Decker, 26 January 2015 - 11:48 PM.

[Greenjulius]

I hate to be a wet blanket, but I haven't played CW for weeks. The map reset once CW leaves beta is all the more reason for me to stay out, and the players forming alt accounts just to try and sabotage alliances makes me stay away. Not enough maps, too many cheap tactics to win for either side, horrible pugs ruining matches, etc.

At least when the pugs ruin a match in my solo drops, it can't last more than 15 minutes.

Edited by Greenjulius, 27 January 2015 - 03:15 AM.

[Ax2Grind]

Greenjulius, on 27 January 2015 - 03:14 AM, said:

I hate to be a wet blanket, but I haven't played CW for weeks. The map reset once CW leaves beta is all the more reason for me to stay out, and the players forming alt accounts just to try and sabotage alliances makes me stay away. Not enough maps, too many cheap tactics to win for either side, horrible pugs ruining matches, etc.

At least when the pugs ruin a match in my solo drops, it can't last more than 15 minutes.

Just to reflect off your points with my own experience -

The map reset may never happen. Of course it might, but who knows at this point. Just something to consider...not that I think it really matters at this point in the evolution of the game.

I have played CW nonstop since it came out and I have yet to see "alt accounts" sabotaging alliances. It may happen but if it does it certainly doesn't happen often.

I certainly have to agree with you about the maps. More content is badly needed.

Cheap tactics? I am not sure any tactic is cheap in CW. You can kill the enemy or try to zerg the objectives in a number of ways and all of them carry risk and reward. You can have brawling, sniping, and even create some really awesome ambushes. In this, PGI did well. With more maps we should find even greater tactical depth.

Horrible Pugs? Well...there will always be noobs I guess. Some of the Pug's are down right awesome. But in general the Pug groups wont work together and on a "team" mode that pretty much does sink the ship. On the bright side...if the PUG's really screw up in CW it generally means the game is actually over in less than 15 minutes.

[IraqiWalker]

Ax2Grind, on 27 January 2015 - 03:56 AM, said:

I have played CW nonstop since it came out and I have yet to see "alt accounts" sabotaging alliances. It may happen but if it does it certainly doesn't happen often.

Huge flase flag operation happened on the Steiner Davion border a few days ago. Throwaway alt accounts on both sides tried to start a war between Steiner and Davion.