217 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

occusoj, on 27 January 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

"I want" is an argument thats irrelevant in itself.

If that guy in a Spider-Urbie managed kills, a slow Urbanmech can do so too.
Hell Ive even seen an AC40 CDA blow two guys up and that thing isnt just slow, it also lacks armor. Not some. All of it.
The stock Urbanmech wasnt even remotely viable in MWO from day one on but it still was whined to implement it for month.

The Urbanmech never was a Jenner, Spider, FS9,.... and making it into something like that to please its buyers will make PGI loose the small rest of credibility they have left.
Especially since some mechs that already have been paid for are in a very sorry state and they dont give a damn. PB, BH, HM,.....
Give the urbie some speed plus decent durability-quirks and you might even get the absurd situation where it will survive better in battle than a Boars Head. Thats not balancing, thats ridiculous.

Besides $$$, give me a single reason why the other weaksauce mechs cant be made viable like its done with the urbie?
They make a whole new and shiny urbie but theres no time to fix things like that atrocious A1 cat? For real?

one, they haven't made the Urbie yet, and 2, the Clan Quirks, and and likely another IS Quirk Pass, (and probably at the rate PGI has been going, the second Clan Quirk Pass) will be done before the Urbie arrives in April.

Chill, brah.

[Brody319]

Myke Pantera, on 27 January 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

If i was a Clan player in a Kitfox getting outrun by an UrbanMech i would be seriously pissed! I'd say 150 would be enough. It's meant to be slow after all. Improved Strukture and quirk the crap out of the ACs is the way to go.

Urbanmech suffers when it has an 180 in it. Even an XL. lacks ammo. any bigger and it likely will have even less ammo.

I am a clan player and I've loved and defended the Kit fox and Adder, since I played them. I want it to be a 180 engine max or even 200. Why would I be mad of a mech that can out run my kit fox? I mean all the current IS lights can out run my Kit Fox. So why Would I care if the Urbie can run just as fast or slightly faster?

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 January 2015 - 09:05 AM, said:

It was one of a few Light that actually had near full armor. It is being given to us to fill that gamer geek itch some have. It was a lousy Mech in Universe, making it even slightly competitive will strip away the reason everyone wanted it. It is a crap Mech you wanna play when drunk!

Roadkill, on 27 January 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

No, you aren't. Because that's exactly what it is getting. The Urbie's gigaquirk is 300% max engine rating.

I laugh at those of you whining about its speed, but then immediately turning around and saying that +50% AC/10 ROF, +50% AC/10 range, and +50% AC/10 velocity would be perfectly okie dokie coolio.

Guess what? THAT'S NOT AN URBIE EITHER.

The Urbie got its big quirk. It gets a higher engine cap than other lights. Deal with it.

Again, not true.

The Urbanmech was extremely effective in Universe. But in a narrow range of operations. Under BV, in particular, in any type of congested defense (City, cavern, etc) the Urbanmech was able to be very effective. The reputation came from the Succession Wars, and in particular, the Capellans, pressing them into front line service. Having "Attack" Lances composed of Vindicators and Urbanmechs.

But a 30 ton mech, with 6 tons of armor, and a no heat generating pp 10 pt damage stick, facing off against mechs with 3-5 tons of armor doing at most, 5 pts focused damage (aka, facing off against any other IS Light but a Panther in 3025)? Urbie put down the pain. Because the enemy also had to get in range of the Urbies gun. Really the only Guaranteed urbie-killer Light wasn't until the Wolfhound in 3028. (A Panther'sPPC minimum range in a city fight often worked against it)

In MWO, not only does speed and weapon ranges change that entirely, but doubled armor and everything running maxed armor and a lot of Lights getting lag shield to boot, change the equation.

Thus, just like the Hunchback got it's RT toughness buffed, and it's AC punch turbocharged to allow it to replicate it's TT effectiveness closely, the Urbie needs toughness quirks, because traditionally, only 3 Lights were heavier armored, stock the (or as heavily), and most of those also had speed to boot. But since every mech gets uber up armored in MWO; the Urbie needs to hit hard, and take a hit.

It certainly doesn't need speed quirks. (Outside of torso twist)

occusoj, on 27 January 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

Exactly. You chose something non-nice and expect PGI to nice it up for you. Doesnt matter if that mech ends up completely different except for its skin.
Even though you shouldnt have gotten that before all the other already paid-off sadface mechs are made nice, you will get it. Money makes PGI do astounding things.

That might explain why the Catapults were ruined. Didnt pay enough to keep them nice.

actually, Russ, in introducing it in the TH, said he would make it nice. We, the people paying for it, are just asking he keeps his word.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 January 2015 - 10:56 AM.

[Myke Pantera]

Brody319, on 27 January 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

Urbanmech suffers when it has an 180 in it. Even an XL. lacks ammo. any bigger and it likely will have even less ammo.

I am a clan player and I've loved and defended the Kit fox and Adder, since I played them. I want it to be a 180 engine max or even 200. Why would I be mad of a mech that can out run my kit fox? I mean all the current IS lights can out run my Kit Fox. So why Would I care if the Urbie can run just as fast or slightly faster?

Because your stock clan mech, which runs about 100ish kph should not be outmanoeuvred by a stock 32kph mech in my oppinion. Agility is just not the urbies defining attribute.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 27 January 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

The Urbie is supposed to be a garbage mech.

You don't need to make it useful. It's whole POINT is that it's trash. It's basically a civilian police mech.

This is generally why most folks haven't given a crap about the Urbanmech. But if you try to make it into a viable mech that can actually do something useful, then it's kind of pointless.. it's not even an urbanmech.

The Urbie should move at an absolutely glacial pace, due to its tiny 60 engine. It's top speed is only 32 kph.

Whatever though, it's just a cashgrab. None of this matters.

oh look, gracing us with your wisdom. We are saved now!

[Joseph Mallan]

Sorry Bish but Extremely effective and Narrow Range don't go together. The only time I saw one be useful was when a top player at a Convention was using it at a Mech grinder match. he was playing mostly against first timers.

Bishop Steiner, on 27 January 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

oh look, gracing us with your wisdom. We are saved now!

Inexpensive, not cheap. It was a one trick Pony. Kinda like an SRM carrier.

[Mechteric]

This is not a bad thing, I mean about the best you can mount with an AC20 I think is around 150 XL or so (with a few tons ammo for the thing).

I really don't see the problem, it wasn't meant to be as fast as a jenner or anything. Being as fast a kitfox is more than I could ask for.

[Bishop Steiner]

Myke Pantera, on 27 January 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

Because your stock clan mech, which runs about 100ish kph should not be outmanoeuvred by a stock 32kph mech in my oppinion. Agility is just not the urbies defining attribute.

neither are a lot of things in MWO. FPS vs TT. Everything has to have some semblance of viability.

Joseph Mallan, on 27 January 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

Sorry Bish but Extremely effective and Narrow Range don't go together. The only time I saw one be useful was when a top player at a Convention was using it at a Mech grinder match. he was playing mostly against first timers.


Inexpensive, not cheap. It was a one trick Pony. Kinda like an SRM carrier.

Obviously you never played me. My City Defense company of Urbanmechs regularly deployed and destroyed equal BV units, all day long.

Only down side was that to deploy anywhere outside their home city, meant hitching a ride. Thi is a matter of ad hominem though, Joe, but even simple paper math. The only downside to the Urbie was it's speed. Which was only a downside when used in environments where speed and long range mattered.

[Ghogiel]

You know you can just leave the stock engine in there if you want. They don't have to have max enignes. Can't see a reason to be annoyed about engine cap unless it doesn't accommodate the engine size you want.. unless there is some weird butthurt about what other people are going to do with their urbies.

[Bishop Steiner]

Myke Pantera, on 27 January 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

Because your stock clan mech, which runs about 100ish kph should not be outmanoeuvred by a stock 32kph mech in my oppinion. Agility is just not the urbies defining attribute.

and yes, because the Kit Fox has a locked engine. Technically, an Urbie could have a 300 XL tossed under the hood. But sinc ethe "faster than a Kitfox" Urbie will be woefully outgunned, and fragile compared to the Kit Fox..... R-E-L-A-X.

[Brody319]

Myke Pantera, on 27 January 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

Because your stock clan mech, which runs about 100ish kph should not be outmanoeuvred by a stock 32kph mech in my oppinion. Agility is just not the urbies defining attribute.

Kit Fox is locked in a really small engine for what we currently define as lights. You could say I am also mad, because the Adder and Kit Fox technically run the speed of MOST IS lights. Like Firestarter, and several others should run Kit Fox speeds stock. but They don't, they all run like +150 kph.

So why should I care if the Urbie can keep up with my Kit Fox? Both have JJs, both run the same speed, and my Kit Fox will get to run more equipment than the Urbie if both run a 180 engine.

[Myke Pantera]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 January 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

neither are a lot of things in MWO. FPS vs TT. Everything has to have some semblance of viability.


Obviously you never played me. My City Defense company of Urbanmechs regularly deployed and destroyed equal BV units, all day long.

Only down side was that to deploy anywhere outside their home city, meant hitching a ride. Thi is a matter of ad hominem though, Joe, but even simple paper math. The only downside to the Urbie was it's speed. Which was only a downside when used in environments where speed and long range mattered.

Sure, still I think the way to go to make the urbie viable is to make it tanky and an AC monster through quirks. Making it fastish seems off to me.

Edit: I'm not trying to say it should be stuck at 32kph, but 180 is the highest it should get. A little less would be even better

Edited by Myke Pantera, 27 January 2015 - 11:12 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ghogiel, on 27 January 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

You know you can just leave the stock engine in there if you want. They don't have to have max enignes. Can't see a reason to be annoyed about engine cap unless it doesn't accommodate the engine size you want.. unless there is some weird butthurt about what other people are going to do with their urbies.

Apparently the fear is that having a survivable engine cap will take away from it's precious quirks.

The issue, though, is that even with a 180, the Urbanmech will be the lowest tier, tier 5. And if they are generous, they won't hold the JJs against it.

Problem is, their are no tiers 6-10, which is what one would need the equivalent of to get the "extra" quirks needed to make a 85 engine cap Urbie remotely viable (as even a tier 5), and at that, it would require "MWO Physics" changing quirks, like lower weight autocannons, or "no crit 1o base heatsinks", etc and such to remotely work. Because the tonnage and crits simply don't exist to buff the "stockish" builds any meaningful way, otherwise.

Whether it has an 85 cap or a 180 cap, the quirk levels will be identical, because it will be a tier 5 mech, either way. There IS no lower tier, and thus now bonus quirks for being the worst tier 5 mech.

[Davers]

I was, originally, not a fan of increasing the engine cap outside of MWO's normal 1.4 limit. But if the only alternative is giving the Urbie's AC/20 the fire rate of an AC/2 to make them viable, I think I will side with letting them go faster.

Edited because of overuse of the word 'viable'.

Edited by Davers, 27 January 2015 - 11:11 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Myke Pantera, on 27 January 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

Sure, still I think the way to go to make the urbie viable is to make it tanky and an AC monster through quirks. Making it fastish seems off to me.

you buy a Pack? Because at the moment, and no disrespect, but it's the people who crowd funded it, that IMO, really have any say in it. For instance, I may vehemently disagree with Wanderer, but I (think) he bought one, so has at least some place to say. Because it's being made with his money. And mine.

Now if for some reason it shows up and is game breaking, OP, etc, then yeah, people have a place to speak up, but honestly, that ain't gonna happen.

Just my 2ct

Davers, on 27 January 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

I was, originally, not a fan of increasing the engine cap outside of MWO's normal 1.4 limit. But if the only viable alternative is giving the Urbie's AC/20 the fire rate of an AC/2 to make them viable, I think I will side with letting them go faster.

and then you have what...7 shots? maybe 14?

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 January 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

neither are a lot of things in MWO. FPS vs TT. Everything has to have some semblance of viability.


Obviously you never played me. My City Defense company of Urbanmechs regularly deployed and destroyed equal BV units, all day long.

Only down side was that to deploy anywhere outside their home city, meant hitching a ride. Thi is a matter of ad hominem though, Joe, but even simple paper math. The only downside to the Urbie was it's speed. Which was only a downside when used in environments where speed and long range mattered.

Overwhelmed would be a proper wording. I can see how a LARGE force of Urbies could win against a "normal" force. Kinda how Machine Guns are a joke until 10 Mechs with 12 MG each is formidable.

Victory through superior (ie much more) Firepower.

What is the BV you used? Would your Urbies work against an equal BV force of Savanna masters?
2.8, 5 ton Tanks Per Urbie?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 January 2015 - 11:15 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 January 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Overwhelmed would be a proper wording. I can see how a LARGE force of Urbies could win against a "normal" force. Kinda how Machine Guns are a joke until 10 Mechs with 12 MG each is formidable.

Victory through superior (ie much more) Firepower.

What is the BV you used? Would your Urbies work against an equal BV force of Savanna masters?

yes. Because to hit me, they had to get in my range, and at max speed their aim sucks, too. They do 5 damage max, focused. My 10pt hit auto kills each one hit. Getting Behind means little and is not even always possible, because my arms flip 180.

also, 1v1, in a city environment, the only mechs that really can go toe to toe with an Urbanmech and win, 1v1 are the Wolfhound, because it has the LArge Laser, for 8 dmg focused (and mediums, if it wants to overheat) or a Panther, if it stays more than 90m away. The Jenner or Commando might get 50/50 chance due to overall firepower, but their damage is very spread and their armor much lighter.

Because again, in TT, you don't get to shoot on the run or poptart. If they can shoot me, I can shoot them. And my AC10 cripples or kills most light mechs with 1-2 shots, tops.

[Odanan]

wanderer, on 26 January 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

Whelp, they went ahead and did it. They made the slowest 'Mech in Battletech into:

That's right, kids. 180+ engine rating, meaning it's Kit Fox speed or better.

For a 'Mech that defines "slow". That could have been built to be the loveable, tottering trashcan we expected and quirked up to be an alternative to the usual.

Nope. We're gonna get a 'Mech that neatly covers the same space as the Spider. Only clumsier.

PGI, I am seriously disappoint. 125 would have been plenty. You've just managed the first 'Mech to be able to -triple- it's stock engine rating. Excellent timing on bringing it up after the wonderful "it's official!" announcement.

I would be happy if it had max 90 km/h speed (around 150 max engine).
180 engine would make it run at 97.2 km/h (106.9 with ST), which is kind of too much for the Urbie.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 January 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

yes. Because to hit me, they had to get in my range, and at max speed their aim sucks, too. They do 5 damage max, focused. My 10pt hit auto kills each one hit. Getting Behind means little and is not even always possible, because my arms flip 180.

also, 1v1, in a city environment, the only mechs that really can go toe to toe with an Urbanmech and win, 1v1 are the Wolfhound, because it has the LArge Laser, for 8 dmg focused (and mediums, if it wants to overheat) or a Panther, if it stays more than 90m away. The Jenner or Commando might get 50/50 chance due to overall firepower, but their damage is very spread and their armor much lighter.

Because again, in TT, you don't get to shoot on the run or poptart. If they can shoot me, I can shoot them. And my AC10 cripples or kills most light mechs with 1-2 shots, tops.

Right. ANd the Masters is going to have speed mods, if you jump a heavy +3 Mod. The what if game is something that happened a lot on teh TT forums. this is one of teh more imaginative discussions.

I'll have a Panther next month. Wanna play when ya get your Urbie?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 January 2015 - 11:22 AM.

[Brody319]

I'd rather break lore a bit, to give the urbie a fighting chance in this game, rather than leaving it more lore friendly and rendering it completely useless. If you want a Slow urbanmech, then keep the STD 60 and watch the base. Me and my 180 urbie will actually get some kills and make some space bucks.