217 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

MeiSooHaityu, on 27 January 2015 - 03:00 AM, said:

I'm still confused on why people are upset about an engine cap? If 210 was the engine minimum, and they couldn't build their iconic slow Urbie, the fine I get it. This however is maximum engine rating we are talking about. No one is stopping you from making your build, just allowing people who want an option to make a somewhat normal light (albeit one with a sweet torso twist).

My hope anyway is that the quirks look good for this machine. I think like many of us, we want to see dramatic quirks for acceleration and deceleration to make up for a lower top speed. Some armor and internal buffs to beef up its durability to lore (and to also make up for a slower speed). Lastly some nice ballistic quirks to round everything out.

Anyway, to use those cool ballistic quirks, you are going to need a smaller engine anyway. We might see some "fast" Urbanmechs running 180 engines or so, but the majority will want to take advantage of nice A/C10 quirks and will run the lower engines anyway (especially if with quirks it can change direction quickly).

Because of the following 3 reasons (i dont actually care a huge amount since ill never buy it though)

1) With a faster engine cap PGI CANNOT give it super defense buffs to account for super low speed, since people would stick a big engine in and be semi invincible with MLs/MGs

2) It cannot run a big AC and a big engine, because it will have no ammo

3) It therefore cannot run a big AC because it will get instagibbed due to being too slow for a 30 tonner with the engine size required to fit an AC20 + ammo.

If PGI had left the cap lower, say 125 or 150 then they could give it insane defense buffs that would allow it to be (semi) viable with the big AC its *meant* to be running.

[PurpleNinja]

You can always set up stock only private matches.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Widowmaker1981, on 27 January 2015 - 03:29 AM, said:

Because of the following 3 reasons (i dont actually care a huge amount since ill never buy it though)

1) With a faster engine cap PGI CANNOT give it super defense buffs to account for super low speed, since people would stick a big engine in and be semi invincible with MLs/MGs

2) It cannot run a big AC and a big engine, because it will have no ammo

3) It therefore cannot run a big AC because it will get instagibbed due to being too slow for a 30 tonner with the engine size required to fit an AC20 + ammo.

If PGI had left the cap lower, say 125 or 150 then they could give it insane defense buffs that would allow it to be (semi) viable with the big AC its *meant* to be running.

I don't feel I agree with you on this.

At best, it is only going to see a buff to armor and internals to equal a light medium (maybe a 40 or 45tonner). I don't see why that would be out of line with a mech running 120kph. My Vindicator 1AA is a 45 ton 116 kph medium, it also can fire 2 PPCs equalling 20 alpha damage. I wouldn't say that mech is OP.

On the flip side. They assume many (if not most) will be running an Urbie at about 50ish kph. The mech will be more vulnerable at that speed, so the armor buff works plus good acceleration and deceleration buff will be used to help it rapidly change direction.

Even with those buffs accel and decel buffs as well, an Urbie with a fast engine can still practically only accel and deccel so fast.

I don't know, I just don't see PGI saying...well it CAN go over 100kph so let's screw all the people running ballistic builds. I just don't see it.

Although on a side note. They can quirk specifically for weapons in the game, what if they quirk specifically for engines...hmm. Not sure that is a good idea, but it is an interesting thought.

[Widowmaker1981]

MeiSooHaityu, on 27 January 2015 - 03:44 AM, said:

I don't feel I agree with you on this.

At best, it is only going to see a buff to armor and internals to equal a light medium (maybe a 40 or 45tonner). I don't see why that would be out of line with a mech running 120kph. My Vindicator 1AA is a 45 ton 116 kph medium, it also can fire 2 PPCs equalling 20 alpha damage. I wouldn't say that mech is OP.

On the flip side. They assume many (if not most) will be running an Urbie at about 50ish kph. The mech will be more vulnerable at that speed, so the armor buff works plus good acceleration and deceleration buff will be used to help it rapidly change direction.

Even with those buffs accel and decel buffs as well, an Urbie with a fast engine can still practically only accel and deccel so fast.

I don't know, I just don't see PGI saying...well it CAN go over 100kph so let's screw all the people running ballistic builds. I just don't see it.

Although on a side note. They can quirk specifically for weapons in the game, what if they quirk specifically for engines...hmm. Not sure that is a good idea, but it is an interesting thought.

If you don't try to balance for the min-maxers you are doing it wrong.

And its 30 tons not 45. CW mang, CW - if you make it as effective as a vindicator, then its actually way more effective per ton.

Same problem the Gargoyle suffers from - its as effective as a 50 ton mech but weighs 80, so sees 0 use.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 27 January 2015 - 04:08 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

I wonder if the entire "balance everything" bullsh!t will ever stop ...

Some mechs are supposed to be better than others. Period.

BattleValue system matches one Atlas with (approx.) two Jenners or four UrbanMechs. Put one stock Atlas vs two stock Jenners or four stock Urbans in MWO and it'll be an even matchup.

MWO matches one Jenner with one UrbanMech or one Atlas with one DireWolf, which is a complete BS. So instead of doing proper balancing mechanics MWO introduces quirks, that in turn produce abominations like a Thunderbolt that is heat neutral with two (almost three) ERPPCs, or a Firestarter (a 35t piece of quirk) that has sustained DPS far exceeding anything most assaults can come up with.

Qurks were supposed to make mechs that got them viable, only they didn't. They made all other mechs non-viable instead. This abomination needs to go, just like ghost heat needs to go, just like class-matching needs to go. You've had your chance to prove you know what you are doing and do it "your way" PGI and you failed. Maybe its time to admit it? Otherwise I feel really sad for people willing to spend 40$ on what some say is a simple trash can, because in current state of things in MWO it'll be just that ... trash can, regardless of if it has 70 rated engine or 270 rated engine. Some will still love it and still drive it just like they did their Hunchbacks when there were no quirks, but it'll be the same story again ... if you don't bring current meta into the match you are hurting your team.

But of course implementing anything resembling the BV system is way to hard for you, especially considering you have all the data regarding what mechs and what weapons are being used more often than others and in what Elo brackets, and of course adding chassis-based and weapon-based multipliers into Elo scores also sounds like an insurmountable task for such able devs.

[Joseph Mallan]

oldradagast, on 26 January 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

So, to summarize - some people are upset that they purchased a mech with real money that can be made useful (if so desired) and would have rather seen the mech be given broken quirks vs. a half-way decent engine size because that is somehow more "Lore friendly" - even though mechs in Lore would never have the level of absurd quirks being recommended here.

Wow... May I recommend just leaving the standard engine in place if you want a useless, Lore-accurate urbanmech? Or, perhaps just burning one's hard-earned cash instead of trading it for a mech that one desires to be useless.

They wanted an UrbanMech,
Now they want a UsefulMech.
Shoulda asked for that in the first place.

[MeiSooHaityu]

It is what it is. I'll see what I can do with it. It will be a fun little guy no matter what quirks it gets. Still, it doesn't hurt to see if it can become a good light .

[Joseph Mallan]

MeiSooHaityu, on 27 January 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

It is what it is. I'll see what I can do with it. It will be a fun little guy no matter what quirks it gets. Still, it doesn't hurt to see if it can become a good light .

On TT our Urbie was

6/9/6
Full armor
12(13) Sinks (Not sure how many off the top)

PPC
Medium laser

[Latorque]

Still loving the design; waiting until i sit in the cockpit of my collector's Urbie for judgement. One of the most pivotal characteristics of lights are hitboxes anyway (they shouldn't be of course; but that's how it is ); and i never bought it with the ulterior idea of it being a surprise Firestarter MKII. It might be... what's the word; it's fallen out of use around these parts... fun?

All QQ aside; balance is pretty solid at the moment for a F2P game with a metric fuckton of chassis and options. Wouldn't have bought if i wouldn't trust PGI to make it work in some capacity.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Widowmaker1981, on 27 January 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

And its 30 tons not 45. CW mang, CW - if you make it as effective as a vindicator, then its actually way more effective per ton.

Same problem the Gargoyle suffers from - its as effective as a 50 ton mech but weighs 80, so sees 0 use.

First of all, so what?

Secondly, I'm aware the Urbanmech is 30 tons. I'm saying with armor and internals buffs, it could be equivalent to a 40 or 45 tonner. I was using the performance of a Vindicator to highlight that it is still very destructible at that tonnage (especially moving slower).

You can argue this is unfair to buff its durability, but go read up on the Urbanmech in Sarna.net...

"The UrbanMech was designed for just what its name suggests...giving it six tons Durallex armor to rival the protection found on many medium-weight BattleMechs" - Sarna.net

I take that to mean it is tanks and durable for its size.

It doesn't really matter, PGI will do what they will do. Still, there is a descent lore argument to make this mech as tanks as I suggested with quirks.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 27 January 2015 - 05:00 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

MeiSooHaityu, on 27 January 2015 - 04:56 AM, said:

First of all, so what?

Secondly, I'm aware the Urbanmech is 30 tons. I'm saying with armor and internals buffs, it could be equivalent to a 40 or 45 tonner. I was using the performance of a Vindicator to highlight that it is still very destructible at that tonnage (especially moving slower).

You can argue this is unfair to buff its durability, but go read up on the Urbanmech in Sarna.net...

"The UrbanMech was designed for just what its name suggests...giving it six tons Durallex armor to rival the protection found on many medium-weight BattleMechs" - Sarna.net

It actually states medium weight battlemechs, so I suppose the armor equivalent of a Hunchback wouldn't be out of line. I Picked a Vindicator to be more fair.

It doesn't really matter, PGI will do what they will do. Still, there is a descent lore argument to make this mech as tanks as I suggested with quirks.

The same sarna entry also mentions its speed being 32kph, logic would suggest when its 4x as fast it would lose some of the tankiness

But like you said, whatever - PGU will do what they will. Basically i hope that this mech will never be viable for top tier play. Couldn't care less if its viable but sub optimal for pug/casual use though i guess.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Widowmaker1981, on 27 January 2015 - 05:01 AM, said:

The same sarna entry also mentions its speed being 32kph, logic would suggest when its 4x as fast it would lose some of the tankiness

But like you said, whatever - PGU will do what they will. Basically i hope that this mech will never be viable for top tier play. Couldn't care less if its viable but sub optimal for pug/casual use though i guess.

I know you don't like the mech, but you might see it in CW if only on the defending team.

Its 30 tons so it might allow for heavier mechs in the other 3 slots. It doesn't have to get anywhere quick on defense. It is a heavy ballistic on a 360° swivel that might get nice ballistics quirks. Only issue might be ammo, but if it has a slow enough engine it can fit ok ammo maybe.

You might see it in CW depending on how the quirks go down. Regardless, I couldn't ever see using it on offense.

You might not get away from the mech you hate so much

[Kaeb Odellas]

Widowmaker1981, on 27 January 2015 - 03:29 AM, said:

Because of the following 3 reasons (i dont actually care a huge amount since ill never buy it though)

1) With a faster engine cap PGI CANNOT give it super defense buffs to account for super low speed, since people would stick a big engine in and be semi invincible with MLs/MGs

2) It cannot run a big AC and a big engine, because it will have no ammo

3) It therefore cannot run a big AC because it will get instagibbed due to being too slow for a 30 tonner with the engine size required to fit an AC20 + ammo.

If PGI had left the cap lower, say 125 or 150 then they could give it insane defense buffs that would allow it to be (semi) viable with the big AC its *meant* to be running.

A 200 engine would put it at 118.8 kph with speed tweak. Not exactly lag-shield speeds. Practically slo-mo compared to other IS lights, and only slightly faster than the Kit Fox or Adder. If you have trouble hitting that, you've got other problems.

[Xiomburg]

On my UrbanSpider last night, I was getting one or two kills a match and getting 150 to 200 damage a round. Not impressive, but not to shabby neither.

The Urbanmech will be a fine addition to the game. Like the Uller, it will be able to attack and defend it heavier comrades. Unlike the Uller though, it should get decent armor.

[Xythius]

I am doing my best to envision the version of MWO some of you are playing. Complaining about the engine cap being extreme and that having it be slow, keeps it more true to its TT roots.

There is a multitude of problems with this line of thinking, but the biggest is this - the evironme ts in which the Urban mech was designed to excel in, simply do not exist in this game. There are maybe 4 maps out of the entire rotation that have any kind of urban elements. On top of that, there is a single module, where even if you did have that environment, ambushing tactics would be almost null - Seismic Sensor.

In order to combat that, the Urbie HAS to have at least the speed of a slow medium in order to be even remotely usable. Of course the responses to that are 'then why did you want it if it is crap anway..', etc. Which of course is irrelevent. We want it because it is a cool 'mech. But if PGI was going to finally give it to us, but leave it as a slowwwww, medium armored 'mech with a big gun that couldn't keep up with a DWF, they just as well shouldn't have given it to us at all. Most 'mechs in this game aren't even remotely representative of the 'mechs that existed in TT - unless anyone can link me a sarna.net wiki page of an FS9-A with 8 smpls, or a DWF with 5-6 UAC5's.

Top speed - or speed in general - is not indicitive of quirks. I point you again to the FS9's. Before quirks, they were still capable of 150kph with the largest engine. Then look at the quirks it recieved. If the prevailing logic that speed = quirk reduction, it wouldn't have been given those quirks.

[Majorfatboy]

Well... Due to those poopy minimum weight constraints it'll be more like three urbies and a centurion, but whatever.
Oh, and all of them will be running standard 60 engines, or damned close (Don't much like LB10s though, may drop that for either another AC10, or a gauss rifle).

[Burktross]

as long as it can go 30 its fine

[Felbombling]

People are paying real money for this new Mech. While I support it having a larger engine rating over the stock TT values, the weapon load out for everyone is going to go from AC/10 + Small Laser >>> Machine Gun + ER PPC. It's too bad, too, because there is that hilarious vid on YouTube of that AC/10 armed spider, in effect a mock UrbanMech, scoring kills and doing pretty well. Too bad PGI couldn't have stuck more to a 65ish km/h top speed so folks would be more inclined to have a unique gaming experience.

[Amsro]

LOL is this thread for real?

The Urbanmech is trash because it can upgrade its engine size?



I for one will be slow as **** and have a Gauss Rifle.

I expect other people to do what they want with it.

Edited by Amsro, 27 January 2015 - 08:51 AM.

[Davers]

wanderer, on 26 January 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

Basically, it means the Urbie as the Urbie is (big gun, backup laser) will be a dead concept from day 1.

Yes.

wanderer, on 26 January 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

So in other words, you believe the only "viable" Urbanmech is one that acts nothing like an Urbanmech to begin with.

Yes.

The only way a slow light would work is if it got insane levels of quirks. And having a mech that requires almost game breaking levels of quirks to be good, is a bad idea.