40 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

The Maddog...

Going back to the days of MW2, where "Betty" used to tell us what mechs that were scrolled through the mechlab. It was kinda sexy... cute even, when she called out "Mad Dog". Too bad, the good old days ended with MW4... as the Vulture (which is what the IS called it) didn't come off too well in MWO.

I say this after coming off the nostalgia... and pretty much sidecoring virtually every Maddog I've come across. The thing that makes the Maddog, also breaks it... so without further delay... let's get down to business. This will be broken down in 3 sections... because, it works™.

1) The Omnipods - Labrat says "Yay"
2) Field Testing - Mech says "lol nope"
3) The Future - "Quirks, You're Our Only Hope"


1) Omnipods - "If you're not using missiles, you're probably doing it wrong."

While at first glance, it seems like the Clan version of the Catapult-A1, it helps to look at the bigger picture of the mech building as the greatest benefit that clans have gotten over the IS.. at least ON PAPER, is the space/tonnage reduction that exists with Clan Missiles. It's hard to argue that. However, the benefits are a bit limited there, especially how Clan Missiles operate compared to the IS... it's not a bad idea, and it is what it is.

So, while the action is "mostly" in the side torsos (due to the mech being a notable missile boat), the more interesting stuff are in the arms. The CT, head, and legs are uninteresting other than that the feet are free to be used for DHS or ammo storage...

Let's start with the Arms...

Left Arm:
MDD-Prime - 2E
MDD-A - 1B, +5% Arm Movement Speed (Pitch+Yaw)
MAD-B - 2E
MAD-C - 1B, 10% Armor Strength (LA)

This is somewhat uninteresting on the surface. The only real difference between the Prime and the B is actually the use of the hand actuator, which is specific to the B. I'm told that the omnipod rules on TT don't restrict this, but MWO/PGI's implementation here is simply omnipod specific. Technically the B's arm is more useful as you can simply toggle the arm actuator on and off, w/o consequence and otherwise serves no additional benefit.

The A and C only different in quirks... but 10% Armor Strength tends to translate into a 4 point armor improvement... which is somewhat inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.


Right Arm:
MDD-Prime - 2E
MDD-A - 1E, +5% Arm Movement Speed (Pitch+Yaw)
MDD-B - 3E, -5% Energy Cooldown
MDD-C - 1B, 10% Armor Strength (RA)

You can see the potential for symmetry here. The B is still the special omnipod case here, but it comes with a penalty. The price for having more energy than usual has a consequence. While the option is appreciated, the practical use is not so interesting as it will be expanded upon later. Still, 5E in total is useful... so let's get onto the real topic... missiles and more missiles...


Left Torso:
MDD-Prime - 1M, 1AMS, +5% Missile Cooldown
MDD-A - 3M
MDD-B - 1M, +5% Missile Cooldown, +5% Torso Twist Rate (Yaw)
MDD-C - +5% Ballistic Cooldown, +7.5% Torso Twist Rate (Yaw)

I was somehow hoping for a 2M option as that would allow for better symmetry. The thing is as it is currently constituted, your symmetrical options are actually rather limited though.

The Prime gets the obligatory AMS added hardpoint added on as there's no real differentiation there. The C's bonus is based off of the stock build, which is a complementary piece to making ballistics work better. The lack of a penalty for the 3M hardpoint on the A makes for a nice "Splatdog" idea on paper...


Right Torso:
MDD-Prime - 1M, +5% Missile Cooldown, +5% Torso Twist Rate (Yaw)
MDD-A - 3M
MDD-B - 2M, +5% Torso Twist Rate (Yaw)
MDD-C - +5% Ballistic Cooldown, +7.5% Torso Twist Rate (Yaw)

If you can see the theme through the quirks, the missile cooldown quirk is limited to the 1M hardpoints with torso twist speed driving things. I don't think torso twisting faster is going to make up for other issues... which will be explained in the next section. For now, the torsos dictate how useful your arms should become...


It's hard to build a proper symmetrical build when it comes to missiles... and it's woefully slanted. One of the things that hadn't been mentioned before is ammo consumption... the role it plays in ammo placement.

There can be a legit argument to put the ammo in the legs instead of the torsos... where localizing them would actually affect how much ammo you have left.

The Right Torso is the 2nd place where ammo is consumed. For reference, the ammo consumption works like this...

(1st) CT -> RT -> LT -> LA -> RA -> RL -> LL -> HD (Last)

So, if you lose your Right Torso first (assuming you had consumed ammo in the CT or didn't put any ammo there), you'll have the Left Torso for ammo... assuming both sides have equal # of missile slots used. If you lose the Left Torso, you immediately lose your reserve of ammo for the missiles in the Right Torso as you'll quickly be out of ammo at some point.

On the other hand, if you paid attention to the hardpoint list, the majority of the arm mounts favor the right side of the mech. 3E is the most you can do while equipping a ballistic (and the Maddog-C isn't available to all yet, which would changes things up but leave you with 2E max).

So, in some ways, you need to make somewhat of a conscious decision to build and declare a shield side... unless you place the ammo in the legs... which isn't a half bad thing since the torso-related deaths are the majority. Unfortunately, a 3E, 1B type of build makes the ballistic side rather expendable...

Despite all of that, the 1M-3M side torso builds actually favor a shield side type of build. Asymmetrical arms also help in balancing stuff out too. While it seems like a good idea to build symmetrical designs, the best kinds of builds (for me anyways) "look symmetrical" to the enemy paperdoll, but are actually totally asymmetrical when losing a side torso.

Also, the Maddog is actually "more capable" of building one of the stronger Timberwolf builds (4ERMED + 4SRM6/4ASRM6), but not having the mobility or ability to get in the position to fire... which is kinda sad really... which leads me into the reality...


2) Field Report - Remember the Catapult? It's the 60-ton version...

The Maddog has a really nice and high cockpit... but it does a disservice to the arms. To have the arms be useful, your target has to actually be on the same level as you are... which tends to be problematic. It might just be best to limit weapons usage to short range (CERMED or less) as the ability to maximize damage through the arms requires brawling. On the other hand... the brawling is just a bad idea... considering the torso hitboxes...


It feels like Dragon syndrome, but worse... but any time a Maddog is in view.. it is almost impossible to avoid taking damage to the side torsos. It's really just that large.

What is problematic is what follows this, the missile hardpoints are actually very high on it. A Splatdog (6 SRM6s or some variation thereof) would be just as gimmicky as the Catapult-A1 would be.. (I mean, it's a stock build for the Maddog-A, so go figure). However, the durability isn't there. So, your weapon choice gets mitigated by its effectiveness...

While LRMs (or Streaks) do not need such help, TAG's use is kinda hindered by the arms, as getting height then matters at that point.

In essence, this mech is forced to excel in a support role, as its dependency on someone else to lead, tank, and occasionally spot for you is annoying. Fortunately/Unfortunately, the best/only role that it has been geared to is being some sort of Streakdog.

Now that I think about it... I should look into the viability of a Streak/Splatdog hybrid...

Anyways... it's soft and squishy. The free tonnage betrays it, and fortunately when left unchecked, at least it is very useful in a utility role, and not be the primary damage dealer.


3) The Future - Hitboxes won't save it, only Quirks can...

As far as I can tell, there is no other data to be found (let alone timeline variants to add here), so we have as much as we're going to get. What needs to be done is relatively simple (for the most part) is armor quirks for the side torsos (and possibly the CT).

The rule of thumb should kinda look like this...

3M - +5% side torso armor boost (minimum)
2M - +10% side torso armor boost (min)
1M - +12.5% side torso armor boost (min)
0M - +12.5% side torso armor boost (min)

*Note: It is only for that particular side torso, and not a general boost to BOTH LT and RT armor.

This is not set in stone, but the idea is to give more side armor protection when less missile tubes are used. It is possible to have the non-missile side torso to have the same or more protection as the 1M side torso, but ultimately should be no less than the 2M side torso.

The likelihood of trying to min-max around this would be a waste of time, since the damage output vs protection tradeoff is virtually irrelevant in the grand scheme of things (at best, 1M-3M combination is most beneficial due to the missile cooldown quirk, not so much armor). When you're trying to minimize the use of the missile hardpoints, your weapons of choice tend to go to the arms... usually in the form of a short ranged energy boat. Usually a 4E+3M combo or 5E+2M combo or even a 3E+4M combo is not an unlikely scenario.

In any case, this mech is disappointing in MWO... despite the large nostalgia value it has for many other players... whether TT or prior MW series.

Could it be better? A little bit... but it's hard to outcome many of the deficiencies without just calling it "the sidekick" and outside of being Tier 3 at best, it's hard to make this mech appreciably better w/o breaking so much else in the process.

For now, I'll leave to googling "MW2 Mech List" and listening to Betty when she was less noisy and far more friendly.

[terrycloth]

From fighting against them, they're fragile but They Will Kill You, so people go out of their way to target them. Which makes them seem even more fragile.

[0bsidion]

I get what you're saying, because I think you ran into a lot of the same issues I did with this mech. This is one of my favorites and I was really hoping to pull more versatility out of it than what it is currently capable of. But when I was reading this thread and thinking about the intended use of the Mad Dog, I think it can handle the role it was intended for, (e.g. a stand-off/support mech), fairly well. It can also move in after the missile ammo is gone and probably perform mop up duty pretty adequately.

It just can't do front line duty as well as some other mechs. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. It is on the lowest end of the heavy weight class, and that in and of itself limits it. Now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be mad if they decided to quirk this mech up, but with all your hard points in the STs/arms and the durability of a 60 tonner, it would take some significant quirks to make it into a more suitable for a front line roll.

Edited by 0bsidion, 27 January 2015 - 12:55 PM.

[-Vompo-]

Mad dog is one of those mechs that is useless alone but deadly when backing up other heavies or assaults.

It's no Timberwolf or Thunderbolt but I would rank it in the top 5 heavy mechs in the game. Then again many players would not agree with me on this but I've done really good in Mad dogs. When I look at my stats Mad dog is the highest damage dealer per game and highest k/d out of all my mechs so I cannot complain.

[RavenKnight86]

From my experience with the Mad Dog I don't think you need all these quirks. I believe something simple can be done to make this Mech as well as other low tier Clan Mechs more viable which is either unlock fixed equipment, which I doubt they'd do as what would be the point of taking say TBR-D ST over TBR-S ST, or unlock Endo and FF for the Clans. The second option boosts basically every lower tier Clan Mech and doesn't give any more benefit to the Crow or Timby as they both already come equipped with Endo and FF.

[Lily from animove]

feel fine in my MDD; it feels to be the truly balanced version of a timber, which got too much of the easy mode feeling.

if you realyl wanna buff somethting, give it some Sidetorsi Hp, maybe 7 shoudld be enough to see how it performs next.

Edited by Lily from animove, 27 January 2015 - 01:01 PM.

[Metus regem]

The trick I found with the Mad Dog (and I ran the living daylights out of mine till the Hellbringer came into my life), was to go as ballanced of a build as you can, then use one side as a sheild once you lose it, and you will lose a side at some point.

[Tahribator]

It's good for what it is; a 60 tonner that punches like a 100 tonner. If you accept that this is not a "brawler" in the sense of an Atlas and learn when to fight and when to stay back, it does wonderfully. It's dependent on the team for taking aggro from the enemy team, but when the enemy makes the mistake of ignoring it, it mops up really quick.

[Navid A1]

How do you feel about this build:
MDD-PRIME

[Aiden Skye]

Pretty much says it all. Low energy mounts compared to where the cockpit is. Very fragile side Torsos...worse than Nova. And feels worse than the IS catapult. In this day and age of brawl-warrior online sometimes it feels out of place. I still pilot it though as the maddog was one of the first mechs I encountered getting to know battletech.

[Lily from animove]

W A R K H A N, on 27 January 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

Pretty much says it all. Low energy mounts compared to where the cockpit is. Very fragile side Torsos...worse than Nova. And feels worse than the IS catapult. In this day and age of brawl-warrior online sometimes it feels out of place. I still pilot it though as the maddog was one of the first mechs I encountered getting to know battletech.

not entirely, the mad dog can to 99% hide his CT by twisting in, so yes losing one side is sooner or later with twisting somethign that happens, but you simply keep protecting your CT with the destroyed Sidetorso, which by damage transfer mechanics just massively "buffs" your CT HP. While other mechs like the TBR still have even if 90% twisted in a good chance to get hits directly into the CT. that plays a bit unusual than most other emchs, but still is a well working concept for me.

[Deathlike]

Navid A1, on 27 January 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

How do you feel about this build:
MDD-PRIME

I'm not a fan of that type of build. I would actually prefer to just put LRMs on one side, and SRMs on the other... so that if you lose everything on a side, your ammo is usable on the other. Well... that and 5 CERMEDs is pretty damn hot.

[WhoDidTheElf]

I don't know about you gents, but 6 C-SRM+Art pack one heck of a punch when you round the corner on them.

[Ultimax]

I think you're underselling the mech, and how much firepower it can bring for a 60 tonner.


I also think running asymmetrical builds are a good option - which is how I prefer to run most of my Stalkers (who also have gigantic side torsos you are almost guaranteed to lose).


Once you do that, you go from fragile to a 90kph hit and run mech with a huge shield.



The main thing which I agree on is that it is a side kick, it's a support mech - it's hard to carry teams in it.

You can say that about the vast majority of 60-65 ton and even 70 ton mechs in the game though (and also holds true for most mechs in the 40-55 range as well).



I found the streak builds interesting with the range module out to roughly 400m.

SRMs worked better for me only if I used a shield side or was on a full team and could properly hit and run.


While I hate running LRMs, 6x LRM 5 or even ALRM 5s (yes, with artemis) are very nasty builds with all 30 missiles hitting in a very tight and rough clump on target as long as you aren't hiding behind rocks and willing to engage at mid-range with visual locks.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 27 January 2015 - 02:25 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Vultures are superb glass cannons. I deliberately target them early and often because of the sheer hurt they can put out, but if you ignore then they're game changers.

This is a pretty brutal LRM carrier than can also tear you apart with surgical precision if you get too close without paying enough attention.

This is a nasty knife fighter, capable of smacking you in the face and then carefully picking off your weakest parts.

Now, I haven't driven any of these, but they certainly look good to me. The thing is plenty fast and agile enough to play well as an assassin build, but it lacks the hitboxes and raw armor to do a proper slugger/bruiser build, so you must keep that in mind.

Also, if you lose a side torso, keep trying to take hits on it. It will give your CT 50% damage reduction (75% if the shots hit your arm hitboxes). It's far better to do that than to lose your other ST, which is trivial to do for any pilot who knows how to aim.

[STEF_]

For me the Mad Dog works very well as lore-intended: lurmer, long range support.
50 A-LRM + tag + 4er-sl.
That's all.

Other configs didn't work that well for me.

Srm or streak boat can be performed much better by Stormcrow, with more speed to close, and better maneuverability. Better hitboxes, too, while Mad dog seems very fragile.

Low arms, too

But it's ok. It's esactly how TRO describes the Mad dog.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 27 January 2015 - 02:31 PM.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 27 January 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

I think you're underselling the mech, and how much firepower it can bring for a 60 tonner.

I don't think I'm doing that. I do refer to the Timberwolf in a limited instance (really, you'd be surprised how close you can do 4 CERMED + 4 SRM6/ASRM6 and compare).

I've classified it as support (towards the end), given so many things that would normally make this powerful on paper would be far less practical when you run it.

It's never going to be Tier 1... but it's a great dropdeck companion option as long as it's not leading the charge.

It ended up being what I had thought it was when I ran it myself, so it's easy to understand why people are disappointed (trying to make a front-line mech is just a bad idea).

It could be worse, but considering that no Clan Heavy is outright terrible (Summoner comes close, but it is serviceable), it's ironically still better than what you have elsewhere in Clan weight class options.

[Tordin]

I really consider getting a few Mad Dogs, yes some nostalgia plays part but not the only reason. This mech alongside the Summoner has potential to be so much (if not somewhat more) than they are. I got a Summoner D, I like it no matter what others say, its Thor! Do i need to say more? The thing is that BOTH the Maddog and Summoner really needs to be buffed somehow, they seems like the underdogs in the Clan Heavy class. Sad really! Im mostly for IS mechs, but these guys alongside Cougar are my favorite Clan mechs in the BT franchise, for many reasons. And i dont want them to get behind the all popular Timber Wolf, Dire Wolf, heck even the Hellbringer Loki. They should be around the same strenght but with different roles.

Edited by Tordin, 27 January 2015 - 03:11 PM.

[Roadkill]

The Maddog is one of the better Clan Mechs. No it's not a Timber Wolf or Dire Wolf, but I find it equal to the Hellbringer or Warhawk.

Some Mechs aren't meant to be a jack-of-all-trades. The Maddog is best in a support role, and in that role it excels.

I run mine with 6 x LRM-5 and 4 x ER Medium Laser. One trigger for the lasers, one for LRM-5 chain fire, and one for LRM-5 alpha. During a push by my team, I get behind an assault and attempt to chain fire on whatever the assault is fighting. If my team is defending, I try to suppress snipers or flank the enemy to throw off their push.

I've seen people make great use of splatdogs or streakdogs, but I've never felt the need to try it myself.

I won't complain if it gets more quirks, but I really don't think it needs any.

[Escef]

I run my Mad Dog A with 4xERML and 6xSRM6. If an Alpha of 100 isn't enough "bite" for you than you are going to have to wait for those redonkulous monstrosities that the Blakists pulled out of their hindquarters.